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Jewish scribes have long been aware that there is an incredible mathematical symmetry to the Hebrew scriptures that attest to their divine orgin. It is something that the casual reader of the Scriptures will miss completely but is nonetheless there for those who have eyes to see. I remember how astonished I was when it was first pointed out to me that Psalm 119, one of my favorite passages in the Bible, consistently followed the symmetric pattern of each verse of the 22 octets beginning with the subsequent letter of the Hebrew alphabet. There are other interesting patterns.
If you take the first Hebrew letter in Genesis, skip 49 and then take the next letter, then repeat the skip sequence, then every four letters spells Torh (the Hebrew word pronounced 'Torah', meaning 'The Law of God').
This holds all the way through the first two books of the Bible, Genesis and Exodus. When you get to the middle book of the five, Leviticus, it stops. However, when you do the same skip sequence for Deuteronomy and the Book of Numbers, it spells Hrot, which is Torh backwards.
In the book, Leviticus, use the skip sequence again this time skipping every seven letters, and it spells YHWH (pronounced YAWEH). Which is the Hebrew name for God!
So we have every 49 letters in Genesis and Exodus spelling 'The Law of God' and pointing to Leviticus, and every 49 letters of Deuteronomy and Numbers spelling 'The Law of God' backwards and pointing to Leviticus. Every seven letters in this book spells YAWH; the name of God himself.
Michael Drosnin who wrote the book “The Bible Code” has made some very interesting findiings. So much for “dynamic equivalency” huh?
Has anyone read it?
Verne

Verne,

One question.  Did you actually count those letters yourself to ascertain the validity of the claim?

Here are a couple of articles that take another viewpoint of the Bible Code issue.

http://www.reasons.org/resources/apologetics/critbiblecode.shtml

http://www.reasons.org/resources/apologetics/crackingcodes.shtml

Blessings,

Thomas Maddux

Not sucessfully Tom. Doing this manually even for a few chapters is extremely hard on the eyes.  I have a Parson's technology Hebrew Bible on CD rom. I am trying to get information on two things. The particular Hebrew translation that Drosnin used, and the algorithm he used to search for patterns.
The program is extremely hard to get hold of. I am not even certain that I have sufficient computing power to put it to any good use. The man runs super CPUs in parallel processing. I know that he has his detractors but from what I have seen of the statistical analysis, there appears to be something more than serendipity...
You of course know of his documented letter to prime minister Rabin.
Some of the very same remarkably symmetry, which is easier to follow occurs in the NT.
For example, several people would immediately give me the answer if I asked how many times the word Jerusalem. occurs in the NT in the vast manority of extant NT MSS.
Verne
p.s I will let you know as soon as I get done with Genesis...so far so good...

Years ago, Last Days Ministries had an interesting publication about this that went into great detail.

I have not seen it. The reviews done by some of the cryptographers are what I really find intriguing.
They apparently took a dare and ran the algorithm on War and Peace - Nada...
Verne

I read the Last days tract a while ago, but I can't remember all that it said.  It did go into interesting numerical symmetry in the Bible and seemed plausable to me.

My boss lent me the Bible Code.  I read the dust jacket and kept it for a few months before returning it.  The book went into things like how he would see a famous person's name in one place and a date somehow intersecting it and that person ended up being assinated on that very day.  I don't know how he came up with these things as I never read the book so don't take this as a fair evaluation.  I never could stir myself up to to read it because it reminded me of Salam Kirban's Bible prophecy books that I used to read in the 1970's.

Let me know if you actually read the book.  It may be better than my initial impressions.  Hey, the godly New York Times loved it. ;)

I have talked to a few folk who had opinions but had not read the book. I asked Chuck Vanasse a few months ago if he knew how I could get a copy of the algorithm but he had no idea.
The book has a number of remarkable items easily verifiable by anyone with half an inclination, including a fairly thorough over-haul by some of the Pentagon's top cryptographers...
Verne
p.s I had my own copy on the shelf for about a year before I actually opened it.

There is an interesting stock-market scam that some people have used which involves sending out 1024 different letters predicting what 10 different stock prices would do.  The reason being that there are 1024 different choices of up versus down among the 10 stocks.  The letters would be sent to many people, but each person would receive only one of them.  Later, after learning what the stocks actually did, those people that received the letters which predicted all 10 correctly would be sent another letter advertising the 100% success rate of predicting the 10 stocks.

As for this Bible code idea, it could be that the author produced a very large number of algorithms and tried them all, and the algorithm that produced the largest number of surprising finds was the one he kept, and discarded the rest.  Noone would ever know how many algorithms were tried and discarded.  This is the power of high speed computers: they can synthesize improbable combinations of things by means of immense searches.

Topics such as this are intriguing and attractive.  They can also be dangerous.  It is easily understandable how one who loves his Lord would want to learn the "deeper things" of his God and his faith, and the desire to do so must initially be a good thing.  We must remember that our God's greatest enemy often creates his best deceptions by beginning with the truth.

My purpose in these comments is not to discourage anyone's interest in Bible numerology or "codes," but merely to urge one and all to keep everything in perspective.

The natural man loves to possess knowledge that supercedes that of his neighbors, and to revel in the reputation that it can bring.  For the Christian, the child, heir and true worshipper of God through Christ, all knowledge should lead to a greater appreciation, thanksgiving and worship toward our Father in heaven, our Redeemer, and the Holy Spirit, and a deeper humility before both God and men.  If this is the fruit of our meditations, let us study on.  But if it turns to pride, let us beware.  In either case, let us pray for guidance and protection...

In Christ,
al

My aim in starting this thread was not so much to solicit philosophical pronouncements about the validity or accuracy of the Bible code, but rather to promote discusssion among those of us who might be interetesd in Scriptural numerology. It goes without saying that to make any meaningful comments on the subject you should have at least read the book in question. Let's keep it light and airy shall we? I have found that many Christians are not well informed on the subject, nor for that matter even interested so please feel no obligation to offer your two cents if you don't have any :)
Verne

Verne,

In approaching the issue of "Biblical numerology", I would ask a couple of questions.  The first would be, "Is there such a thing as Biblical numerology?"  Then, "If there is, what does it actually mean?"

 Seems to me that pointing out that the first letter of a series of verses spells YHWH or some other word simply means that the first letter of a series of verses spells a word.

Thomas Maddux

Back in June, 2003 someone asked me about numbers in scripture, and my reply was in these pm's:

---

I don't know about those things.  Sometimes people see patterns that are merely coincidences.  Here is a link to a classic book on the subject:

http://philologos.org/__eb-nis/

I think that at least a few of the things Bullinger says may have some validity, but I think he is seeing more things than are really there. 

---

---

I was just looking at what Bullinger had to say about 153.  He seems to have missed the fact that it is equal to the sum of the cubes of its digits. The only other numbers with that property are 0, 1, 370, 371, and 407.

---

Excellent question my good man!   :)
I think we should consider it as part of a larger question of symbology in the Scripture.
For example, do you think it makes any difference to us that at times something such as the position of someone ( such as an agngel standing on the right side of the altar) is given in great detail?
Or again that someone lays his right hand on someone's head?
Put another way, is there a way in which Scripture uses numbers to convey spiritual meaning?
Here is a quick test and anyone may answer, but you must give your reasons.
What is the significance of the number three in Scripture?
What about the number eight?
What about the number twelve?
What about the number seven?
What about the number nine?

Can you give examples of passages in which these numbers are used to support your thinking?

Here is another good one: How would you use the number 400 to give someone a bird's eye view of the history of the nation of Isarael? (I know that one is a puff ball but you get my drift. :))

I guess I would have to say that looking at the contextual uses of specific numbers in Scripture, I would say that Biblical numerlogy is simply a recognition of such a consistent use.
Verne

p.s have you read Drosnin's book?

How about this:

Suppose you are asked to construct a genealogy of real people, but there are certain constraints. The number of words in this genealogy must:


·   Be evenly divisible by seven (with no remainders)
·   The number of letters must be divisible by seven
·   The number of vowels and consonants must be divisible by seven
·   The number of words that begin with a vowel must be divisible by seven
·   The number of words that begin with a consonant must be divisible by seven
·   The number of words that occur more than once, must be divisible by seven
·   The number of words that occur in more than one form must be divisible by seven
·   The number of words that occur only in one form must be divisible by seven
·   The number of names in the genealogy must be divisible by seven
·   The number of male names must be divisible by seven
·   And the number of generations in the genealogy must be divisible by seven

How many genealogies and how many algorithms do you think you would have to mine to satisfy the above constraints?

Verne

Does anyone know where the afore-mentioned genealogy is listed?
Verne

Verne,

Answer....ONE!

All you have to do is examine the text first....then "discover" the amazing characterists.   ;)


Blessings,

Thomas Maddux

I understand your point. I am not talking about only texts.
I am also talking about geneaologies. Of course you could try to extract some other measurable information from whatever text you use.
There are eleven distinct variables in the given list.
Choose any genealogical literature you can find, take half the number of variables and show me what you got...or as you put it, "discover".
To make it really convincing, choose one genealogy, and one search algorithm and then prove your case Tom.
By the way, just to save you a bit of time and effort, it has already been done by several very able Jewish and German mathematicians... :)
Verne

p.s that genealogy of course is found in Matthew 1: 2-17. Ask Stephen about the pure mathematical probability of "discovering" the above facts. You can actually calculate it you know...

Verne,

I hope my post is not offensive to you in that I have not read the book in question:  I am not well informed on the subject of Biblical numerology (nor do I feel "obligated" to engage in discussion), but I do find it interesting.  As a slow and laborios reader, I find it necessary to choose my study tasks carefully.  (My purchase of Gene Edwards' A Tale of Three Kings, in order to "qualify" for the discussion, was IMO a complete waste of money and reading time.)  So I'm wondering what about the topic of this thread might make The Bible Code worth my time?  (A "light and airy" discussion is less than compelling.)  Is the topic of this thread the book (as your "It goes without saying" comment would indicate), Biblical numerology, or both?

---

Tom,

Your posts so far make me wonder just what you think of the topic?  You seem to not find it enthralling...

In Christ,
al

Hardly. I was just pointing out that while pontification is often purposeful, it is not necessarily always proper. I would categorise your post on the topic as pontification Al.



I find this comment puzzling. On the one hand you say you find the topic interesting (the reason most of us post on any given topic), and in the very next sentence you ask me justify your reading the book?!
You are at perfect liberty to do as you see fit without my, or anyone else for that matter, sanction Al.
I am afraid you've lost me on that one...

Verne

That's OK, Verne.  I consider some of your posts on this thread condescending and exclusive, but I don't hold it against you.  I expect you to behave as you consider proper, and hope you will allow me the same latitude.

I would appreciate your saying why you consider my remarks a pontification, and if you find it improper rather than useful, again, why?

In Christ,
al

I ssuggest you go back and read what you posted Al. If you have thoughts or questions about Michael Drosnin's book, by all means express or pose them. Nobody is interested in being lectured by you about the "dangers" of Biblical numerology.
Based on your comments it is not clear to me that wer are even talking about the same thing. The condescension is in you own presumption in my view Al.
Verne
p.s. Tom's query by the way was quite reasonable in that he sought to confirm that I had verified personally the facts that I had posted. He also offered an alternative viewpoint and explanation of those facts. He did not make vague  statements about the peril of the topic I broached, or that I was somehow seeking esoteric knowledge as you did. I hope that helps.

Al,

You wrote,

While I have only "looked over" the Bible code book, I have read other books on the topic.  One of them is Bullinger's "Number in Scripture".

A few warning lights go off in my mind when this topic arises.  A couple of them are:

1. Gematria is a popular occult practice.  The Kabbalists are big on it, as well as others.  It was practiced in pre-Christian times by the Pythagoreans.  Seems to me that God doesn't need to utilize the occult to communicate his truth.

2. The technique is used by Muslims to "prove" the divine origin of the Koran.

3. When other large documents have been tested they have produced some surprising results.  I once read an analysis of the Gettysburg Address using these random computer searches. It produced some surprising results.  That, however, hardly proves that Lincoln was a prophet of God.

4. When all is said and done, the same question may be asked of Bible code fans that can be asked of mystical knowledge fans.  I have been asking the mystical knowledge fans the same question for years.  "What revelation of God have you received in this way that cannot be found in scripture?"   I am still waiting for anyone to tell me one single thing!

I strongly suspect that the Bible code is of the same value.  But, if someone has any revelation they have received from the utilization of this, or another, purported code that is not accessable through normal hermaneutical methods...fire away.

Blessings,

Thomas Maddux

Thomas Maddux

I would remind you Tom, that the reason that there is sin in the world is that Satan wanted to take God's place.
It ought to be evident that all the mystical aberratations that you so correctly cite are nothing more than perversions of God's truth. In and of themselves those arguments do not invalidate the findings of men like Bullinger regarding Scripture.
I do not think it would have been possible for anyone to employ hermeneutical principles to predict the assassination of Prime Minister Rabin. That Drosnin did in fact do this a documented fact.
You must also remember that there is real Satanic power behind the practioners of the occult.
There is also real divine power, not all of which we fully comprehend, in the Holy Scriptures.
This kind of discussion is bery, berry good. Keep those insightful sckeptical posts coming...I love 'em!!

Verne

Thanks, Tom & Verne.

Verne, is there anything in scripture that suggests that we should, or may, expect to find numeric codes in God's Word?  If so, are we told to seek them,  toward what purpose they appear or who among us should expect to recognize them?

Your statements in response to Tom's post (the numbering is mine):


   ...provide nothing by way of actually answering his points.  They make for interesting, even fascinating, argumentation which, IMO is their great potential danger, while providing nothing of substance upon which to form an instructed decision.  e.g., in (1.) & (2.), what you say "ought to be evident" is no more evident than the possibility that numerical mysticism is, in & of itself, is a form of counterfeit religion, one facet of which has been introduced into the thinking of some Bible believers (much as unscriptural doctrines are introduced to draw people away from the true gospel, resulting in such perversions as the JWs, Mormons, etc.).

      Points (3.), (4.) & (5.) are valid observations that themselves could be applied to any number of positions or arguments.  The key is to determine whether there is anything at all within the scope of what we do comprehend in scripture that would lead us to the conclusion that we should look for something more, beyond the language itself to be taught us by the Holy Spirit?

In Christ,
al

But who created numbers??

Who created the earth??

Who created the constellations?

Not to the best of my knowledge. We do know though that numbers are important in the Bible because of the frequency of their use as a central theme.



At least it makes for interesting conversation don't you think?


I would hardly consider things posted on a BB such as this to be a proper basis for "forming instructed decisions."
I am sorry if that is the main purpose for your reading and participating here Al.
I enjoy occasional banter about non-life changing topics.
I also like scuba diving, playing classical guitar and chess. Discussions about those topics would hardly give you a basis of "substance upon which to form and instructed decision"  
This is BB Al, not a Sunday School!  :)



Why don't I just leave that determination entirely up to you?  :)
Verne

You know something Moonflower?
The way some people carry on about some of these subjects, you would think that God Himself was somehow a latecomer to His own universe.
What you say is apparently not as evident as I assumed it to be...
Verne

What you say seems very creepy to me.  A big part of what the occult involves is deception.  The fact that Drosnin predicted an assasination suggests that his source of information was the perpetrators themselves.  Media efforts to stand behind a hocus-pocus explanation suggests media involvement in a cover-up.

What I consider to be the primary difference between a stage magician and an occult practitioner is that the stage magician does tricks, but the occult practitioner does dirty tricks.  The essence of the occult is moral filthiness.  The hocus-pocus idea is a distraction and cover-up of what the occult really involves.  In fact, when someone immediately starts talking about hocus-pocus upon mention of the occult, it makes me suspicious of that person: as if they are intentionally trying to further a false image of the occult.

It may sound like I'm saying that there is no such thing as the supernatural, but what I'm really saying is that that question is irrelevant to defining what the occult is about.  Deception is deception.  It doesn't matter whether it happens in the physical realm or the spiritual realm.  In essence it's still the same thing: it still amounts to being the ways of the master deceiver, the devil himself.

Scriptural references such as "For me to live is Christ..." and "I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that you present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service.  And be not conformed to this world: but be transformed by the renewing of your mind, that you may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect will of God," and many similar passages do not appear to have part-time application.  It is not impossible-- just difficult-- for me to anticipate some archaeological dig to uncover writings in which any of the apostles discuss only their "interests" apart from their high calling in Christ Jesus...  their hobbies and recreational activities they enjoy without concern of how they will be interpreted by observers.

Maybe I am legalistically bound up in error, but it has taken most of my years since acknowledging Christ to come to a place where my "Sunday School" persona does not differ from my standing-in-a-grocery-line persona.  I am the same al on this board as I am at the church I attend, or at the beach, a museum, or a ballgame, and Christ in me, the hope of glory, is with me wherever I am.

I intended nothing personal toward you, Verne, in posting a cautionary note on this thread, nor in my follow-up posts.  People read this board for all kinds of reasons and we have the opportunity to manifest the King of kings and Lord of Lords in our lives and in our posts.  To me it is both a privilege and a responsibility.  Some surely see it otherwise.  I post to fulfill my responsibility, not to censure others.  If I challenge your position on a topic, it is not an al vs/ Verne situation, but a seeking to explore the truth.

You know perfectly well that when I have had personal concerns, I have delivered them to you privately, and accepted your refusal of some of them.  I will only challenge you publicly when:
1.]  I see no personal issue, and only wish to clarify,
2.]  You have refused my private appeal and have presented a post that I consider potentially dangerous.
In neither case am I seeking to cause division, but enlightenment.  If you truly enjoy debate as you claim, then there should be no reason to belittle the character or the reasoning of one you choose to recognize as an opponent-- simply demonstrate him wrong.

It is not my thought to regard you as an opponent, but as a beloved brother in Christ.  Between the two us is the freedom to reason with one another, appeal to one another, debate.  I am not offended if you consider me unqualified to challenge you.  I am behind you in education, in knowledge, and possibly in intellectual capacity.  But we are both children of the Lord and heirs of both His wisdom and His humility.

I don't suppose that when you play guitar, dive, or compete at chess you leave Christ aside or behind, but that whatever you do in thought and deed you do all to the glory of God.  So, please forgive me if I do not accept that your "light and airy banter" about matters of personal interest are performed with utter lack of concern for how others may interpret them.  I am constrained to believe that you are as responsible in your leisure as you are at your labors.  Please correct me if I have judged you wrongly in this.

In Christ,
al

How far afield from the Bible Code...I would really rather not correct you Al, and just talk about Drosnin's book.
I'm frankly just a bit worried about you my friend...really...
Verne

An interesting theory, but in no way based on the facts as we know them.


The era of subterfuge as regards the occult has been over for some time Stephen, in case you had not noticed.
Things occultic are now widely available for ready public consumption. There have been recent calls for the recognition of Wicca as a legitimate religion.
The fact of the matter is that in a country that has seen such gospel light as has America, those giving place to "deception" such as this do so with their eyes wide open.


Your point being...???
Deception (in spiritual matters) takes place only after a rejection of the truth and is ultimately God's confirmatory judgement so I would be carfeul in how I use the term...to fail to distinguish between being fooled by sleight of hand parlor tricks and that which induces someone to embrace what God abhors is not logical...
Verne

Flash!!!!!!


Leo Tolstoy's War and Peace is divinely inspired!!!!!    :o

When War and Peace was analyzed using the methodology of the Bible Code....1998 was found to be associated with Chicago....and "Bulls" was found no less than 32 times!!   :o

Leo Tolstoy predicted that the Chicago Bulls would win the NBA championship in 1998!   :o

Oh ye of little faith....Repent.....Read the Book of Leo upon your knees.

 ;)

Thomas Maddux
Virulent Dog First Class

We ought to run the algorithm on some of George's tomes...wonder what that would turn up...?
Verne

I just wanted to remind everyone that this thread is not one on theology.
I was waiting to see if anyone would post something about the actual mathematician who discovered the code using computer algorithms but no one mentioned Elihayhu Rips (or Witzum for that matter) so I will.
Those of you taking this so serously lighten up will ya?
Here are Rips own comment about the entire affair:




--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Public Statement By Eliyahu Rips


I have seen Michael Drosnin's book "The Bible Code".

1) There is indeed serious scientific research being conducted with regard to the Bible Codes.

2) While I did meet and talk to Mr. Drosnin, I did not do joint work with him.

3) I do not support Mr. Drosnin's work on the Codes, nor the conclusions he derives.

4) There is an impression that I was involved in finding the code relating to Prime Minister Rabin's assassination. This is not true.

5) However, I did witness, in 1994, Mr. Drosnin find the tableaux about Prime Minister Rabin, which now appears on the cover of his book.

6) For me, it was a catalyst to ask whether we can, from a scientific point of view, attempt to use the Codes to predict future events. After much thought, my categorical answer is no. All attempts to extract messages from Torah codes, or to make predictions based on them, are futile and are of no value. This is not only my own opinion, but the opinion of every scientist who has been involved in serious Codes research.

7) The only conclusion that can be drawn from the scientific research regarding the Torah codes is that they exist and that they are not a mere coincidence

 ) Mr. Drosnin's book fails to point out that the leading figure in Codes research is Doron Witztum. Therefore, I think it is appropriate that Mr. Witztum should make a statement about the research and answer any questions.

Professor Eliyahu Rips

If you want to have an informed opinon, at least read the book before getting your underwear in twists... :)
Verne
p.s Rips is no fool. He understands what it takes to maintain credibilty in the scientific community and has chosen his words very carefully. It is all in way quite amusing doncha think?  :)
As if any of this really mattered to our faith..he he  :)

Here is the real skinny:


"Wiztum is a physicist but not connected to any university, and compared to Rips, is unknown in the world of science. But it was Wiztum who completed the the mathematical model, and Rips considers him "a genius like Rutherford".
What Rips and his colleagues had done was to search for the names of thirty two great sages, wise men from Biblical to modern times, to determine whether their names and the date of their birth and death were encoded in the first book of the Bible. They looked for the same name and the same dates in the Hebrew transalation of War and Peace and in two original Hebrew texts. In the Bible the name and dates were encoded together. In War and Peace and the two other books they were not...the odds of finding the encoded information by random chance were ultimately found to be on in ten million.

The Bible Code p 22

I am not sure why they are even looking at a text whose original language was Russian. That obviously goes against any theory one would propose as to the reason and orgin of the codes.


The original paper on the subject is entitled:

Equidistant Letter Sequences in the Book of Genesis.

You probably can't get a copy of it now...
Verne

p.s. Any suggestions as to what we might find if we ran the algorithm of a few of George's tomes??!!  ;D

NEWSFLASH!!

An exhaustive analysis of one of George's well-known works. "The Heavenly Ladder" has produced the following encoded message...


                    L
      F             I
GEORGEGEFTAKYS
       A           R
        U
         D
Verne

Oops! The computer just spat out another one...!



  T
  H               L
  I   F            I
GEORGEGEFTAKYS
  F  A            R
      U
       D

Verne

I read Drosnin's book in the late 90's after seeing him on Oprah.   I figured that if it was good enough to be on Oprah... {graphic tongue}

   Verne, You have an odd way of making a point.

"If you want to have an informed opinon, at least read the book before getting your underwear in twists...
Smiley"

   Why worry about the condition of my underwear? {graphic smiley}  Actually, they did ride a little high when I thought that maybe you thought that Drosnin's book was a good one!   Accurate in theory and application???{graphic huh}


"p.s Rips is no fool. He understands what it takes to maintain credibilty in the scientific community and has chosen his words very carefully."

  I don't know, he still could be a fool.   Just not enough information...{graphic undecided}

My question is what great new revelation is the use of ELS?


"It is all in way quite amusing doncha think?
Smiley"


As if any of this really mattered to our faith..he he
Smiley
  If that is your point, I quite agree.   As you stated, it is of no use in theology and doctrine and certainly not in prophesy or escatology.   But amusing, it is.   Unfortunately, those like Lindsey and Jeffries have gotten a hold of the concept and have come up withh some bizarre claims...this bring shame to the Name.   Even people like Michael Douglas and Jason Alexander give seminars on ELS...{graphic huh}   Can't remember where I read that, If I find the source, I'll post it.

   I'm confused as to whether this is about numerology or ELS?   I believe that these are different topics.   I did find some of the sevens in the geneology of Matthew 1 to be interesting.   I of course, checked out the easiest one...total names and discovered something unrelated but very interesting.   In verse 6:
Matthew 1:6  And Jesse begat David the king; and David the king begat Solomon of her that had been the wife of Urias;
   The phrase "her that had been the wife of" is an English word inserted for clarification.   We know that this was Bethsheba but the translators did not translate it to her name.  The only translation that I have access to, which translates it to Bethsheba is the NASB.   I believe that the NIV did also.   If you translate it to her name, it blows the whole "divisible by seven" pattern.   Anyone can see that this of course is conclusive evidence for the deciept and deception of the NASB and NIV translators!  {graphic wink}
  Also interesting is the inclusion of Pherez's twin, Zara.
   It does intrigue me as to why they didn't translate that text to her

   As for the Rabin prophesy...The Israeli Prime Minister who was planning to give land back to Palestine is assassinated by a radical (maybe not the best choice of words??)...Man , who could have seen that coming?
{graphic angry}  hope this is readable as the way it is reading back to me is all screwed up!


I find this amusing...
"Some critics of Drosnin say the journalist is just "data mining." Mathematician Brendan McKay of Australian National University and his colleagues searched
Hebrew texts besides the Bible. They found fifty-nine words related to Chanukah in the Hebrew translation of War and Peace. But McKay doesn't think someone
engineered this remarkable feat for his or anyone's benefit. Since then, McKay has responded to the following challenge Drosnin made in Newsweek:
Block quote start
"When my critics find a message about the assassination of a prime minister encrypted in Moby Dick, I'll believe them" (Begley 1997).
Block quote end
McKay found assassination "predictions" in Moby Dick for Indira Gandhi, Rene Moawad, Leon Trotsky, Rev. M. L. King, and Robert F. Kennedy (see
http://cs.anu.edu.au/~bdm/dilugim/moby.html).


--Tony

P.S.  I notice that with the new software, I can actually tell when someone is using a smiley or other expression graphic.    I included my own *expressions* within {} as that is exactly how the smiley's etc. are spoken to me.  Again, I hope this is readable.

O.K Tony you have hit the nail on the head.
I think it is what Al may have been trying to say and what Tom has hinted at.
The point of course is that divination, BY ANY MEANS*, is Biblically forbidden.
The existence or non-existence of the codes was nothing but a red herring.
Thanks for your post.
Verne

p.s * unless of course you are authorized to don a Urim and Thummim... :)

GEORGEGEFT  A K (Y   S)
R    E          A  L     U   L
E    N          K  L     C   O
E    E          E         K   B
D    G         S         Y     
Y    D
      E

Oooh...! you mean there's more?!
This is one awesome algorithim no?
Verne

Verne,

     Thanks for the credit.  Of course, cash is always welcome, too! ;D


     We all are acquainted with someone who considers himself thus qualified...


                                                 See,

                                               mY

                                                  Kinky

                                      ladder-stAirs

                                                  Take

                                         turnofFs

                                                 hEading

                                            wronGly


                                                   Earthward,

                                      forsakinG

                                                   Right

                                          directiOn

                                                 hEavenward,

                                           endinG
                                                   .
                                                   Really

                                              warM

                                                   

                                                   

Hey, that's pretty good..! Hyuk! Hyuk!
Verne

Thanks!  ...and I still haven't read the book.  Nyah!  :) ;) :D ;D

Verne and others,

I read this book back around '97 or '98 and found it fascinating. However, I kept thinking to myself while reading it that this could be a complete hoax, and I wouldn't know it. I tend to read things like this very critically as I can tell some of you do to. Kinda reminded me of one of those great urban legends that sound believable but aren't true. Still don't know what to make of it. Guess I'd have to see the algorithm myself and give it a run. If I happened to find something, then I'd be really creeped out though.

Bob.

Pretty much my own view. You would really have to run the thing to be certain.
Lots of ELS work on other literature has been done with, to say the least, ambiguous results.
Some critcs also say that not every version of the OT yields statistically significant results. Who knows?
Verne

p.s.
Tell me you are kidding about the  backwash into the communion cup!
That was a disgusting practice...I think I am going to be sick just thinking about it...

OK, Verne-- I take it that you're reluctant to acknowledge that I actually cracked the MR. GEORGE GEFTAKYS CODE without any help from Drosnin's book, but I ask you:  why did you think they're called algorithms?


It was just an assembly spin on transubstantiation:  the bread becoming flotsam.

Surely you mean assembly sputum on transubstantiation...?
Verne

Um, yeah, I guess I did... :P

Bob,

Did they start using a moustache cup eventually, to act as a sort of strainer? :-X

Is this it?

http://www.torahcodes.co.il/wrr1/wrr1.htm#Appendix


g e o r g e g e f t a k y s
   n f    r  m     i    t   2
   d     e  p     g        o     
         e   i      u       m
         k   r      r        i
             e     e        l
                    s   

Yes it is. I AM impressed...!  :)  :)  :)
Verne
p.s. I did not know that Statistical Science was available online Moonflower...thank you!!!
p.p.s Hey Al, what was that you said about "talking down" to BB readers??
They are smarter than you think buddy... :)

The Templeton Prize, awarded for "Progress Toward Research or Discoveries about Spiritual Realities" has been won by Nobel Laureate Charles Townes ( inventor of the maser and laser).
I really like this guy. He is someone Christians should know.
Pray for his clear salvation. I think he is quite close.   :)
Verne

 ;D I tend to have a "blond" look while I'm thinking, so I'm glad at least you are impressed.  :) It's surprising what a search on "Equidistant Letter Sequences in the Book of Genesis" can do.  ;)

However, I do find math, algebra and statistics extremely interesting.

I was thinking that since there are a few names encoded,and if the codes are legit) that there are probably more names encoded. Why not? What would limit that?

perhaps I am late in the conversation...  perhaps I missed something.
But speaking about the skip 49 for torh, skip 7 for YHWH, skip 49 for hrot....  has anybody seen a site or a source that can quote the valid statistical possibility of this?  and this code in particular?  To say nothing of finding sentences and phrases randomly- which seems bogus with the research I was able to find..... BUT  I cant find any refutation AT ALL of the TORH skip occurence?  Any help?  I mean, this seems like a big deal to me! no?
 And did you ever get to count those numbers on your own?
thanks
  Kevin- student of the bible

A few posters on the thread have given helpful links, incluidng one to the original paper in Statistical Science.
Although the first formal reporting of the code took place around 1958 by a Jewish Rabbi, that the Scriptures carried far more than a mere litereary significance has always been presumed by the Jewish people and the Scribes in particular.
The Holy Scriptures would be handled with great reverence, and no ancient document was reproduced with greater fastidiousness.
One error on a page resulted in the entire page being redone.
Two errors meant the entire work was scrapped and restarted.
Each time the name of God was encouuntered, the Scribe would burn his pen and change his clothes.
By comparison, I get the impression that even some so-called Christians hold the Word of God in little more than thinly disguised contempt.
So far as I know, there is nothing in the internal witness of the Scriptures that militate against the possibility of the code's existence. In fact the Scripture is replete with suggestions the the Word of God has far greater depth and mystery than unaided human ability can fully plumb. The Psalmist beseeches God that He would open up his eyes, that he might "behold wondrous things out of Thy law"
The letter predicting Rabin's assassinaton is a documented fact.
I have read the original publication on the study in Genesis and the paper was peer reviewed. It is solid statistics.
You will have to read the paper and Drosnin's book and draw your own conclusions.
Some other interesting studies on ELS have been done purporting to refute the findings of the original paper.
Most of the criticism I have read amount to little more than a knee-jerk reaction of the scientific community and which is entirely understandable. Most of these folk are hoplessly mired in a strictly mechanistic world-view of reality.
Verne

p.s Doron Witztum has published a new book in Hebrew in which he responds to his critics. You can get a copy of the Hebrew text he actually used here:

http://www.torahcodes.co.il/

I would hesitate to bite on the bible codes. I do understand that we all come upon things with pre-understandings- and those lead us to be biased in one way or another.  "TORH" 49 skip code isnt a big deal... but why would God put it in?  The hidden messages are a bigger deal to me.  Why would a personal God hide mystical messages in a text meant to be taken literally (with hermeneutical rules allowing for figures speech and such though of course). ONce your outside these lines- I can make the bible say anything I want it to say!  and It seems Skip codes could theoreticaly find my name with "God" in the near vicinity of the grid- in the pentateuch...and so therefor I am He?  Again, I do have preunderstandings that give me a bias- we all do- it is important to figure out what those preunderstandings are and evaluate if they are correct.  hopefully I will have more information later next week.  I too have read the bible code and the reports.
And your description of the Jewish transmission techniques is accurate... more aptly applied to the Massoretes who date back to 500 AD.  though they were preceded by scribes using transmission ordinances described in the Torah, which are also very strict*.  Could flaws still occur?  yes.  Did they?  Dont know.  All we know is that there are small conflicts b/w the different texts we do have (all except the dead sea scrolls, date after 8th century).  The ancient jewish tradtion of burning all old manuscripts after copying is an interesting but unfortunate one.
 
http://www.answering-islam.org.uk/Religions/Numerics/report.html
http://cs.anu.edu.au/people/bdm/dilugim/index.html
http://www.themodernreligion.com/comparative/christ/bible_code.htm
http://www.skepdic.com/bibcode.html
http://www.answersingenesis.org/docs/205.asp

*"how we got the bible" Neil R Lightfoot  pg 131

What everyone wants to know, but is afraid to ask:  ;D
 


                          T
                          H
 B O O K O F L I F E
                          R
           W R I T T E N
                 S
                 M
                 Y       W
                 N       H
                 A L G O R I T H M
                 M            T   A
                 E                  S

Interesting questions, ja?

for those interested, this seems to be the most recent update of the McKay/Witztum debate- but is anti ELS...
no problem for me though! ;)
http://cs.anu.edu.au/~bdm/dilugim/StatSci/

kevin