WOUNDED PILGRIMS

[thomasson]

Case in point, when Roger asked this question Thomasson really couldn't think of anything.  So, why pursue it any further?  If Roger was being deceptive in his question, only God knows.  If he was being as honest as he possibly can, then they are clear as far as I or anyone else should be concerned.

I think Roger was being as honest as he possibly could be.  And now that I think further about it he may have been referring to the counsel he had given me on dating someone that was divorced (which still raises questions in my mind as to whether or not it is right). 

[moonflower2]

I don't know if I buy into this sweeping generalization.  I can certainly see where someone who ought to know better uses this phrase as a smokescreen.  On the other hand, I can think of many instances where I may have offended back when I was in the Assembly or college but I don't remember all of my conversations or actions.  I remember one then-leading brother who stayed in our home when I first got married.  My wife was sick so I did much of the cooking.  He later reported to the workers that we weren't ready for the work because my wife wore the pants in the family and I wore the apron.  He told them he talked to me about this but he didn't. 

This happened so long ago, I really doubt that he would remember the experience or have any idea that it hurt us at the time.  If this guy was still around (he is long gone) and asked me "if there is anything . . .", I suppose I might bring the incident up for a good laugh.

Case in point, when Roger asked this question Thomasson really couldn't think of anything.  So, why pursue it any further?  If Roger was being deceptive in his question, only God knows.  If he was being as honest as he possibly can, then they are clear as far as I or anyone else should be concerned.

I can certainly understand where Mark is coming from because his closest friends in the Assembly were leading brothers who acted liked royal hypocritical asses and essentially consciously and deliberately screwed him over.  So, I can appreciate from his experience why he would expect a higher degree of repentance.  They did things that they cannot "not know" was wrong.  On the other hand, I was lower on the Assembly food chain so my experiences were not that horrific.  For me, I see my Assembly aquantenances  as fellow-victims of believing and acting out the same erroneous teachings.  So, if someone said to me that I couldn't work late and had to be at a meeting or I shouldn't do this or that, it was only because we embraced the same assumptions about reality at that time.  I'm not particularly offended that we believed the same collection of ideals and acted upon them.

Now that the curse of exclusivism and shunning is gone, I don't feel that every Assemblite (whether in or out) has to rise to some standard of repentance and refutiation before I can sit down and have a cup of coffee with him.

All this aberrant behavior notwithstanding, (I don't think they realize the extent of it) what about the fact that we were being robbed by a phony from California, right under the noses of the LB's and elders? Am I missing something here? Is there a need for them to apologize or something to the rest of us because we were exposed to the king of lies?  Don't they realize the affect this man's phoniness and the effect of the LB's desire for GG approval had on the children of the families? Or is it all placed on the family itself?? (If the family was all it should be, it wouldn't have been affected by the phoniness of GG and his LB followers?? Just trying to figure out the their way of looking at things)

We weren't protected from another bafoon, either, Mike greasy palm Zach, who would come through the area speaking to situations that he knew nothing about. I can't believe anyone would want to hear him preach. From the Word??  In a meeting where people are gathered to hear the Word of God?
Was this True Confessions, ie, God forgave me for receiving payments from a phony to keep his machine cranking, and judging people and situations that I knew nothing about so I can preach from the Word again, or was it just a nice trip down memory lane done for memories as in: we still love you Mike?

[Mark C.]

Hi Dave!

  "Sweeping generalizations?"  Jesus often used just that when referring to the pharisees and the religious system they developed.  He did so even though there were individuals like Nicodemus who demonstrated behavior that contradicted the "generalization" that Jesus had often and consisently leveled at what he considered great evil.

    Some living under Nazism experienced great personal abuse by the leaders and others lived well.  This is no way excludes us from understanding from history that Nazism is evil and deserves to be categorized as such.

   Without the ability to generalize re. the facts of history concerning organized groups/movements we are left with an insipid kind of moral relativism that blinds us to how evil works socially.   This leads to the kind of comment that says: "under Mussolini in Italy it wasn't so bad; at least the trains ran on time."

   In the Assembly, some have used a similar kind of defense because, "for them, it wasn't so bad, because it helped instill discipline, etc. in their lives," meanwhile  someone else was contemplating suicide over the GG ideology of false holiness!

   Jesus, Paul, etc. were horrified and strongly resisted the kind of false religion that is described in the NT.  How this false NT religion worked itself out in behavior is like reading a text book on Assembly practice.  If any still feel this is an overstatement of fact then I would be happy to detail what leads me to express this opinion again.

   To say that the kind of behavior that the Assembly exhibited was not systematized and as such it is an unfair generality then we must also cease to condemn Nazism, cults, etc. as I'm sure that there are individuals who prospered as a result of their involvement with these.  Aren't there some true Christians who lived in these systems, and were allowed to live unmolested?  Of course there were, but this in no allows us to give these systems a pass.

                                                                   God Bless,  Mark C.

[outdeep]

OK, let's not take what I said and make it a big fight.  All I meant was that just because someone says "if there is anything I did to offend you..." doesn't necessarily mean that he is being hypocritical or partial in his repentance.  One cannot say that using this phrase automatically and in every case means the person isn't being sincere.  That's all I meant by "sweeping generalization".

[al Hartman]

  All I meant was that just because someone says "if there is anything I did to offend you..." doesn't necessarily mean that he is being hypocritical or partial in his repentance.  One cannot say that using this phrase automatically and in every case means the person isn't being sincere.
 

...and that is, in part, what my point was.  I was in earnest when I used that approach.  That does not infer that I was in the right, but that I did not know I was in the wrong.  To say more would be to repeat my last post, but it isn't far away if anyone' wants to read it...

al

[Mark C.]

OK, let's not take what I said and make it a big fight.  All I meant was that just because someone says "if there is anything I did to offend you..." doesn't necessarily mean that he is being hypocritical or partial in his repentance.  One cannot say that using this phrase automatically and in every case means the person isn't being sincere.  That's all I meant by "sweeping generalization".

Hi Dave!

  I'm not trying to have a "big fight" with you at all, but I think it is important to be clear re. this issue.  I have great respect for the stand you took in leaving the Assembly, for how you helped me after I left, and for your contribution here on the BB.

  What the use of the word "if" reveals to me in the above phrase is that the person making the apology has no knowledge that they ever did anything wrong.  They may have vague feelings that they might have offended someone in the past, but they can't identify specifically what that wrong might be.

  So, generally speaking, I can judge that the one making the apology may be very sincere in their effort, but are totally ignorant of their own part in the evil that was practiced on a daily basis in the Assembly. Such ignorance shows a shocking lack of moral sensitivity and God given discernment.

   True repentance requires personal clarity concerning what were the actual practices of the group, honesty re. the part one played in that history, and the acceptance of responsibility for my own actions while a member.

   The only way to truly know, and therefore have a true reconciliation with such an individual, is to enter into a dialogue with them.  The present member asks me "if" and I counter with: "what do you mean by if?  don't you know if you offended me or not?"

 If they plead ignorance it is time to recount Assembly history and to shine the light of truth on their vague feelings of possible wrongs.  If they refuse to listen, try to turn the tables on you by calling you bitter, or simply hang-up the phone on you then you will clearly know that you have been talking to someone who is miles away from true repentance.

  I would like to know if there is anyone who can provide a testimony re. present Assembly members where such a meaningful discussion has gone on?  I'm not talking about having a talk where everyone avoids facing the painful truth, and all we do is recount "positive" memories of our ol' Assembly days.  Such reunions around a cup of coffee will not be good for the member, or for the former member wishing to just sweep injustice under the rug.

  I have no desire to hurt my former friends from the Assembly, and only wish them God's best in their lives, but honesty (though very uncomforable for all concerned) is the only way to go if we want to truly honor God.  Those that fear honesty are not moving toward God, but away from him.

                                                                    God Bless,  Mark C.

[matthew r. sciaini]

All this aberrant behavior notwithstanding, (I don't think they realize the extent of it) what about the fact that we were being robbed by a phony from California, right under the noses of the LB's and elders? Am I missing something here? Is there a need for them to apologize or something to the rest of us because we were exposed to the king of lies?  Don't they realize the affect this man's phoniness and the effect of the LB's desire for GG approval had on the children of the families? Or is it all placed on the family itself?? (If the family was all it should be, it wouldn't have been affected by the phoniness of GG and his LB followers?? Just trying to figure out the their way of looking at things)

We weren't protected from another bafoon, either, Mike greasy palm Zach, who would come through the area speaking to situations that he knew nothing about. I can't believe anyone would want to hear him preach. From the Word??  In a meeting where people are gathered to hear the Word of God?
Was this True Confessions, ie, God forgave me for receiving payments from a phony to keep his machine cranking, and judging people and situations that I knew nothing about so I can preach from the Word again, or was it just a nice trip down memory lane done for memories as in: we still love you Mike?

Moonflower:

I understand your anger, but why do you mention that GG was from California?  Why does it matter where he came from?  A number of us on this board are either natives or at least residents of that state.  What was your point? 

Matt

[outdeep]

Hi Dave!

  I'm not trying to have a "big fight" with you at all, but I think it is important to be clear re. this issue.  I have great respect for the stand you took in leaving the Assembly, for how you helped me after I left, and for your contribution here on the BB.

  What the use of the word "if" reveals to me in the above phrase is that the person making the apology has no knowledge that they ever did anything wrong.  They may have vague feelings that they might have offended someone in the past, but they can't identify specifically what that wrong might be.

  So, generally speaking, I can judge that the one making the apology may be very sincere in their effort, but are totally ignorant of their own part in the evil that was practiced on a daily basis in the Assembly. Such ignorance shows a shocking lack of moral sensitivity and God given discernment.

   True repentance requires personal clarity concerning what were the actual practices of the group, honesty re. the part one played in that history, and the acceptance of responsibility for my own actions while a member.

   The only way to truly know, and therefore have a true reconciliation with such an individual, is to enter into a dialogue with them.  The present member asks me "if" and I counter with: "what do you mean by if?  don't you know if you offended me or not?"

 If they plead ignorance it is time to recount Assembly history and to shine the light of truth on their vague feelings of possible wrongs.  If they refuse to listen, try to turn the tables on you by calling you bitter, or simply hang-up the phone on you then you will clearly know that you have been talking to someone who is miles away from true repentance.

  I would like to know if there is anyone who can provide a testimony re. present Assembly members where such a meaningful discussion has gone on?  I'm not talking about having a talk where everyone avoids facing the painful truth, and all we do is recount "positive" memories of our ol' Assembly days.  Such reunions around a cup of coffee will not be good for the member, or for the former member wishing to just sweep injustice under the rug.

  I have no desire to hurt my former friends from the Assembly, and only wish them God's best in their lives, but honesty (though very uncomforable for all concerned) is the only way to go if we want to truly honor God.  Those that fear honesty are not moving toward God, but away from him.

                                                                    God Bless,  Mark C.

I'm sorry brother.  I have a tendency to fall in to periods where I am impatient and grumpy.  As a result, I fell to putting inflamatory language in my posts that was completely unnecessary.  "Sweeping generalization" and the "big fight" comment was more a function of how I was feeling, not what you were actually saying.  No matter how wise I think I am, making a significant opinion posts without thinking about it for a good while always gets me into trouble.

You make some good points above - seeking reconciliation without sidestepping past issues that need to be dealt with - and I appreciate more where you are coming from.

-Dave

-Dave

[thomasson]

Thank you Dave and Mark for your post.  Now I better understand, as I sat back and let you guys hash it out.  Again, I think at the time Roger was sincere.  I was not resolved within myself enough to say, "Well, Roger I think you need to apologize for involving us in a system "not unlike Phariseeism, that was utterly corrupt".  At that time I don't think he realized that the whole system was corrupt.  I don't know that I have gotten to that point even today. 

[moonflower2]

Moonflower:

I understand your anger, but why do you mention that GG was from California?  Why does it matter where he came from?  A number of us on this board are either natives or at least residents of that state.  What was your point? 

Matt

Ooooooooo. Touchy there.  "California" was just part of his description. Totally meaningless as far as I'm concerned.I could just as well have left it off. I added it like you would add a last name to a first name. 

My only impression of CA's is that they live in a place where the weather is nicer than the Midwest's, but the trade-off is the earthquakes that you can all keep for yourselves. I have heard that ya'll drive real fast during rush hour and was reminded of that this morning when we all were doing 80+ on the tri-state here, which is not a daily occurrance for the tri-state in my area. Someone must have had a scanner. There wasn't a squad in sight for my entire 45 minute trip.

moon

[matthew r. sciaini]

Moonflower:

Didn't want to be touchy, and I have nothing against the Midwest (what state, by the way?), but at times I have read what people from other states have written about California and its people, and often what they "know" is based on hearsay or distortion of certain aspects of life here.

As far as the traffic goes, rush hour is by no means always "rush hour".  This depends on what freeway one is on.  Also, large earthquakes are rare.  As a point of interest, the largest earthquake in the lower forty-eight states since this nation began was in Missouri on what is known as the New Madrid Fault.  This was some time back in the 1800s.  I don't remember the magnitude exactly, but I believe it was above an 8 on the Richter scale. 

This is a big state, with a lot of variety, and broad brushstrokes can be helpful for an introduction, but not for real knowledge.  If we turned it the other way, my saying that the Midwest is all cows, corn and country would do injustice to the area.

Sorry to go so long and off topic,

Matt Sciaini 

[moonflower2]

Moonflower:

Didn't want to be touchy, and I have nothing against the Midwest (what state, by the way?), but at times I have read what people from other states have written about California and its people, and often what they "know" is based on hearsay or distortion of certain aspects of life here.

As far as the traffic goes, rush hour is by no means always "rush hour".  This depends on what freeway one is on.  Also, large earthquakes are rare.  As a point of interest, the largest earthquake in the lower forty-eight states since this nation began was in Missouri on what is known as the New Madrid Fault.  This was some time back in the 1800s.  I don't remember the magnitude exactly, but I believe it was above an 8 on the Richter scale. 

This is a big state, with a lot of variety, and broad brushstrokes can be helpful for an introduction, but not for real knowledge.  If we turned it the other way, my saying that the Midwest is all cows, corn and country would do injustice to the area.

Sorry to go so long and off topic,

Matt Sciaini 

You asked why I mentioned that GG was from California. I told you that it meant absolutely nothing other than to indicate where the man was from, just like a last name identifies who a person belongs to or what line he hails from. It was for identification purposes only. I was not generalizing in the least bit.

It is a fact that for years California travelers drive at high speeds when the traffic is as heavy there as it is when it is "rush hour" in the Chicago area. In the Chicago area, the traffic crawls when it is as heavy as it is in California. So, unless CALIFORNIA drivers haved slowed down, so that there are no longer 35 car pile-ups when there is an accident, unlike in the Chicago area, the drivers on your expressways, IN GENERAL,  drive faster than we do.  I have heard this for years from Californians themselves. It has been printed in newspapers. It has been described to me from Midwesterners who have driven in California, so I will take it to be true. Some of your freeways are as congested during all daytime hours as ours are during only rush hour or Christmas Eve at O'Hare. This I have heard from the mouth of drivers who have driven them.

When I drive to work, I'm going in the opposite direction of "rush hour" traffic, which is CRAWLING. I was quite surprised this morning to find that two lanes of southbound tri-state were traveling at 80+ for the entire length I traveled it. That was very unusual even in the outbound traffic lanes during "rush hour".

You are right that the worst recorded earthquake in the states has been the New Madrid Quakes: Drained a lake, created a lake, etc.  However, we don't have all the tremors or anything else that shakes your belongings so that we need special hooks to prevent dishes crashing. We don't have earthquake drills. You can keep your graphic faults. At least ours are buried deep enough, so that we can't see them. I have lived thru 2 minor earthquakes here. Only one made the house sway. One made it shake slightly. I'll take that anyday over living in a place where you have to plan for an earthquake disaster.

Like I said earlier, you have the weather, but too many people, too many faults, too many flakes wanting to be "stars", TOO MANY EARTHQUAKES, too many mudslides, too many wildfires.

I'd rather have to deal with tornadoes and too much water, occasionally, thankyou.

And when I move to California someday because I can't deal with winter anymore and my kids live there, you can remind me of everything I said here, okay?

[outdeep]

Moonflower:

Didn't want to be touchy, and I have nothing against the Midwest (what state, by the way?), but at times I have read what people from other states have written about California and its people, and often what they "know" is based on hearsay or distortion of certain aspects of life here.

As far as the traffic goes, rush hour is by no means always "rush hour".  This depends on what freeway one is on.  Also, large earthquakes are rare.  As a point of interest, the largest earthquake in the lower forty-eight states since this nation began was in Missouri on what is known as the New Madrid Fault.  This was some time back in the 1800s.  I don't remember the magnitude exactly, but I believe it was above an 8 on the Richter scale. 

This is a big state, with a lot of variety, and broad brushstrokes can be helpful for an introduction, but not for real knowledge.  If we turned it the other way, my saying that the Midwest is all cows, corn and country would do injustice to the area.

Sorry to go so long and off topic,

Matt Sciaini 

You mean the television program OC isn't an accurate portrail of Orange County, California?!?  Say it isn't so! 

[Joe Sperling]

I'm trying to be patient. I read the posts below and..(face growing red)..I'm trying to
keep my composure(breaking a pencil I am holding) but I can't hold it in anymore, so
I have to say STOP SAYING THINGS ABOUT CALIFORNIANS!! WE CALIFORNIANS ARE
TOUCHY!! ESPECIALLY SOUTHERN CALIFORNIANS!! SO STOP IT!! STOP IT NOW!!!

O.k. I feel better now.

-Joe

[moonflower2]

I'm trying to be patient. I read the posts below and..(face growing red)..I'm trying to
keep my composure(breaking a pencil I am holding) but I can't hold it in anymore, so
I have to say STOP SAYING THINGS ABOUT CALIFORNIANS!! WE CALIFORNIANS ARE
TOUCHY!! ESPECIALLY SOUTHERN CALIFORNIANS!! SO STOP IT!! STOP IT NOW!!!

O.k. I feel better now.

-Joe

You are from California? Oh man. I am so disappointed. I thought you had a genuine sense of humor, Joe. But you are just a stand-up comedian wannabee. Rats. Forget it, Joe. Don't bother posting any more humor attempts. We are on to you now. STOP!! STOP!! It's getting old really fast. Just quit while you are ahead. Pulease!