IT IS TRUE!!!

[Phil Strangman]

I agree, Gary. We need each other. We need the "leading brothers" and the "leading brothers" need us. We need all Christians at other churches, and they need us who are not at those other churches. Everyone is learning that no human being is perfect, especially now.

I don't want to sound trite, uncaring, or anything. I understand that I have not had the experiences that others here have in the "Assembly". I was fortunate enough to grow up in a gathering where all the saints (the "leading brothers" too) were starting to learn to love each other.

My question is this: Is it not possible for Christ to help us overcome the past and our past memories and somehow, through His strength, forgive now and wait on God now?

Peace-

[jesusfreak]

I'm not sure who you are responding to in your email but let me ask you this. If you called someone a liar in a roomful of people and talked poorly about them, wouldn't that information be in your heart and whether or not anyone heard, wouldn't you just know in your heart that you needed to make it right with that person?

I apologize for not communicating my curiousity clearly, let me try again

I was thinking about the actual concept of an apology and it came to mind that it was a fruitless endevour to wait for such when the person who wronged you had no idea they did.  I just wanted to be sure that those who have been wronged know beyond a shadow of a doubt that their offender realizes the fruits of their actions.  If this person does not, than they would know no reason to apologize, and would not seek your pardon.

In starting to apoligize a softness occurs in your heart and perhaps your conscience gets pricked and the light flows in. I would like to believe the best about Jeff, Roberto and Danny but the past keeps getting in the way.... These men that are so fondly called shepherds don't care about the flock. They have no shepherd qualities. How are the little sheep who need shepherds going to keep the shepherds in line? Sheep don't keep the shepherds accountable..... Little sheep need someone who honestly care about their welfare. The LB's of SLO have shown over and over there is no care. These men need to step down!"

But even when offended, those little sheep need to be constantly aware of the sin of pride.  Once again, please to not take anything i say personally, but take them as items to meditate upon.  I know nothing about single events that happened in these various places, nor do i specifically desire to as they are not my business.  Whatever wrongs that have been committed are between the 2 parties and God, not a peanut gallery

[BenJapheth]

Dear People -- Please don't take your eye off the ball.

The core issue is and always has been IDOLATRY.  

It's very, very simple.... Idolatry.

When we try to deal with an issue, we obviously have to deal with the symptoms...However, there is a better way.

That fraud got on the stage and hung around way, way too long for a discerning group of believers.  We should have let him dance by himself or we should of dragged him off the stage back in the 1970s when my Dad-in-law was calling him a fraud.  His speaking the truth cost him a familial split of 25 years involving 50 of us.  I'm not bitter anymore.  I forgive him, I really pity him.  I'm just stating the facts.

Folks the culpability is real we're guilty of idolatry.  Maybe there are some innocent folks out there...If so, they are blessed!

Let's repent - hard core right now - and make things right, and move forward.  Period.

I appreciate everyone who's contacting me and telling me nice things and how they appreciate all the stuff I'm doing. To be frank, it's getting under my skin and it bugs me.  You assembly folks always want to give SOMEONE credit. You've got a big problem.  It's like in or out of that place your wired to praise men.  Very scary, creepy & disgusting

I know for a fact that there is one recorded error in the Bible.  I know it.  It's where Paul says he's "the chiefest-of-sinners."

He's wrong, people.  I am, I know that for a fact.

And, if you don't know that fact about yourself...You still haven't been brought out to where you need to be - and I'm not talking about physical proximity, either.

Please, Please, Please!  Don't take your eye off the ball.

The core issue is and always has been IDOLATRY.  

It's very, very simple.

                                  I....D....O....L....A....T....R....Y

Blessings and Grace to all of you.

Chuck Vanasse
Chuck@vanant.com

[BenJapheth]

Dear People -- Please don't take your eye off the ball.

The core issue is and always has been IDOLATRY.  

It's very, very simple.... Idolatry.

When we try to deal with an issue, we obviously have to deal with the symptoms...However, there is a better way.

That fraud got on the stage and hung around way, way too long for a discerning group of believers.  We should have let him dance by himself or we should of dragged him off the stage back in the 1970s when my Dad-in-law was calling him a fraud.  His speaking the truth cost him a familial split of 25 years involving 50 of us.  I'm not bitter anymore.  I forgive him, I really pity him.  I'm just stating the facts.

Folks the culpability is real we're guilty of idolatry.  Maybe there are some innocent folks out there...If so, they are blessed!

Let's repent - hard core right now - and make things right, and move forward.  Period.

I appreciate everyone who's contacting me and telling me nice things and how they appreciate all the stuff I'm doing. To be frank, it's getting under my skin and it bugs me.  You assembly folks always want to give SOMEONE credit. You've got a big problem.  It's like in or out of that place your wired to praise men.  Very scary, creepy & disgusting

I know for a fact that there is one recorded error in the Bible.  I know it.  It's where Paul says he's "the chiefest-of-sinners."

He's wrong, people.  I am, I know that for a fact.

And, if you don't know that fact about yourself...You still haven't been brought out to where you need to be - and I'm not talking about physical proximity, either.

Please, Please, Please!  Don't take your eye off the ball.

The core issue is and always has been IDOLATRY.  

It's very, very simple.

                                  I....D....O....L....A....T....R....Y

Blessings and Grace to all of you.

Chuck Vanasse
Chuck@vanant.com

[jesusfreak]

Dear People -- Please don't take your eye off the ball.

The core issue is and always has been IDOLATRY.  

.........

The core issue is Christ.  It is the mis-leading of the sheep in Christ's name, and it is the judgment of God.  Idolatry is Man's creation, a creation of his philosophy and defiled nature.  Approaching what has happened from Man's view will only lead to destruction, follow the Lords view in how to act, he will make your paths straight.

I would change your comment to be "Dear People -- Please don't take your eye off the Lord our God."

[Roger Hommes]

Kimberley, I've already sent you a personal commendation on some of your other comments, but from what I'm reading, I should say on Phil's behalf that I think that by virtue of geography alone, St. Louis was spared some of the criminal dysfunction that went on in California.  The dysfunction was there, to be sure, and at times it was severe, but a lot of the doctrinal issues that I'm reading about on this site are new to me.  Phil hasn't been subjected to the things that you've seen.  He is now aware of them.  We have all been at the point where we honestly felt that we were sinning for even noticing a short-coming in another saint.  Absolutely no complaining allowed!  I'm shocked at some of the control issues that people endured.  

Many people are describing their difficulties in leaving the assembly.  Now many people are faced with the very real possibility of the assembly leaving them forever.  It will take time for the sheep to re-examine the shepherds and the pasture.  I hope for genuine and broad-reaching repentance on the part of the shepherds, but we need to bear in mind that in many cases, there was never malice, just procedure.  I'm sure that many in leadership are seeing all sorts of mental re-runs of earlier conflicts with countless individuals and I hope that they are going through their mental files from the 1970's to the present making lists of people they need to contact.  While they are doing this, what is their hope of getting an apologetic phone call from the Grand Poobah himself to reconcile for the control he exercised over them?  Zero.  The LB's have to apologize without receiving apologies themselves.  This means they need mercy and compassion from those they have wronged.  

The abuses among the assemblies range from issues that could easily involve the federal government to issues that are irrelevant.  The severely abused naturally have an urgency in communicating liberty to the captives.  Many of those already out of the "Lodge" still missed that old lodge for a while after their departure.  

Some have the task of exposing the darkness.  Others have the need to recognize just how evil that darkness was.  Just as our merciful Savior did not overwhelm us with the darkness of our own sin when we were first saved, we all have the charge of trusting our Faithful Shepherd to expose the Geftakys darkness to individuals as they are able to accept it.  Jesus will faithfully shepherd His flock.  

[BenJapheth]

Dear Mr. Freak...

Mr. Freak (Since, we're being technical I'm not to use the Lord's name in vain and saluting you stumbles me...I admonish you, brother, to change your name)

Good point the core-of-core issues is Christ!  Always!

Many thanks...The core issue that has kept people from Christ in this movement over the the last 33 years is IDOLATRY...Extending the analogy --  Kind of like the rubber bands around the bouncey center of a golf ball.  How's that JF?

I stand corrected...Boy, you're a tough bunch.

Thanks Jesus...Oh, I mean Mr. Freak....sorry, took my eye off the ball.

Blessing, Chuck

[BenJapheth]

Mr. Freak:

That George was ever a man that folks should follow without question - that view, philosophy was the assemblies creation, yes indeed.  It was wrong and it was idolatry.  Defiled...well history vouches for that, doesn't it?  "Man's view will only lead to destruction"...Yep, we've seen it. No matter how one cuts it...It's idolatry. If it walks like a duck and acts like a duck it isn't a toaster...Get my drift?  

"Idolatry is Man's creation, a creation of his philosophy and defiled nature.  Approaching what has happened from Man's view will only lead to destruction, follow the Lords view in how to act, he will make your paths straight."

Mr. Freak, we're in agreement.

Your Pal in Kansas, Chuck Vanasse (Chuck@Vanant.com)

[Gordon]

In the middle of all this failure I am thankful for the need for me to get back deeply back into the word of God personally and also to keep more friends outside of my own church which balances my perspective.

In comment to the idolatry listed by everyone I couldn't agree more.

A good example from scripture that has been the perspective of this ministry is that if you left -- you're toast. I can't tell you how one of my friends who sense the Lord's leading..and he left, and guess what? He is now one of the main speakers at Campus Crusade for Christ!

**

The man, John the Baptist had a scriptural basis for all this.

John 1:33 Again, the next day, John stood with two of his disciples.
And looking at Jesus as He walked, he said, "Behold the Lamb of God."

The two disciples heard him speak, and they followed Jesus.

**

John the Baptist had a ministry, but when the Lamb of God came, he pointed to Jesus. Jesus is the only one any man should give credit and John the Baptist didn't mind two disciples leaving him to follow Jesus.
That is the goal of ministry my friend, and for all my dear friends, our lives, and our ministry should be to get others to FOLLOW Jesus. May God get within all our lives that we INSPIRE A DEEP PASSION for Jesus alone. Thanks to Chuck, pointing out, I am too quick to give credit to a man, but I should more to Jesus.

May all of us during this time learn to inspire others...FOLLOW JESUS.
One of the great mistakes that has permeated this ministry is the subtle 'sayings' that if someone leaves for legitimate reasons, that they are 'out of the will of the will of God'. Only God knows what life He has planned for everyone. One of the biggest things I appreciated when i had to make a huge job transition, and I sought advice and this dear brother said, "I don't know the will of God for you." That's refreshing to hear, "I don't know. but you follow Jesus."

May our lives point to Jesus and inspire everyone here to say like
Anne Graham Lotz so eloquently expressed, "JUST GIVE ME JESUS."

[Gordon]

Hey Eulaha,

I never forgot your work ethic in the kitchen
and you were a blessing in my life. I never stopped
to say that, but you were!!

I hope God brings all the healing that you need
and if I may make a suggestion --- read Fresh Wind, Fresh Fire
by Jim Cymbala. It's awesome! It will bring you to tears
as how God moves upon the humble and transforms
lives like gay male prostitutes, drug users and hookers and turns
them into part of the now Grammy Award winning Brooklyn Tabernacle. I DOUBLE dare you read the book and NOT
be encouraged. It's AWESOME!!!!

Love in Christ to all,

Gordon

[jesusfreak]

Dear Mr. Freak...

Mr. Freak (Since, we're being technical I'm not to use the Lord's name in vain and saluting you stumbles me...I admonish you, brother, to change your name)

Good point the core-of-core issues is Christ!  Always!

Many thanks...The core issue that has kept people from Christ in this movement over the the last 33 years is IDOLATRY...Extending the analogy --  Kind of like the rubber bands around the bouncey center of a golf ball.  How's that JF?

I stand corrected...Boy, you're a tough bunch.

Thanks Jesus...Oh, I mean Mr. Freak....sorry, took my eye off the ball.

Blessing, Chuck

I did not mean my post as an attack, only a comment.  My postings are made in a spirit of discussion, not upheaveal.  As for the name, it is the title of one of the most encouraging songs (and now a book) that i have heard/read.  A "jesus freak" is a person who found that worth living for, and gave their all (even their life).  This is to which i dedicated my life, and thus chose it as my avatar.

[Corey]

I agree Gordon.

The assembly here had some controlling vices that were instituted to keep ones in line.  Those vices were wrong.  I'm standing for ones to follow Christ, and not follow me or any"one" else.  I've made the mistake of presuming I knew God's will for a good friend of mine, and I was wrong.  I have since asked for his forgiveness, and you know what... God is restoring our friendship.

In our midst, I never want to see the presumtion of knowing God's will for someone else (unless there is gross sin, obviously).  But, I think we can learn to be sheppherds, and pray with each other, and seek God's will together.   These things empower ones to follow Christ, wherever he shall lead.

Corey,

PS, I've never met Phil Strangman (sp), but I'm so encouraged with your post.  At times like this, it's time to seek God.

[Kimberley Tobin]

Jesusfreak:  I sense in your small response to Phil: "Phil, stand strong my brother", the former teaching of the assembly, I call it "the Us vs. Them teaching".  If this is not the case, please forgive me and bear with me as I share from my heart.  (If this doesn't apply to you, perhaps there are some on this board who can be edified by my thoughts.)

I meantioned this in one of my other posts, and i want to bring it up again.  Just because it was taught in "The Assembly" that we are to stand for and encourage our brethern, does not mean it is an exclusive teaching. Building up our brethern in Christ is a universal concept, and not based in any one gathering.   Please do not hold knee-jerk reactions to anything you see, but analyze and examine for meaning first, determine whether it is benificial or stumbling.  I am quite astounded that people get flamed on this forum for supporting each other.  Let the encouragments remain pure -- if you want healing to occur.

Since you didn't clarify what you meant, all I could do was read into it,  it is not a knee-jerk reaction, it is in response to what Phil had written previously and you were standing with (I assume, it is hard to tell with one-liners.)  

Since you are young and perhaps do not recall how believers are treated (and in fact, probably aren't even aware how they are treated since you have never left) let me tell you.  When you leave, you are definately told that you have left "God's covering", you have "left fellowship", you are shunned by dear friends you considered very close to your family, you are told you did not leave properly, you have grudges and must make them right with people.  I could go on and on, this is simply a taste (and mild taste, it has been worse for some) of what it is like to "leave fellowship."  I am not straining at nats when I discuss these terms.  It is a symptom of the false teaching that permeates the assembly and you really need to address this kind of thinking.  This is not the way mainstream churches treat the believers who are not in their midst.  This is not godly or edifying, it is sin.

I am not sharing these thoughts to be critical or inflammatory.  I am sharing them to get those of you who are still under this system of thinking to do just that, THINK!  We who have left, truly love our brethren, we would not be involved and spend the HOURS on this BB if we didn't love you.  There are many more things I could be doing than sitting responding to these posts, I do it out of a love and care for my fellow believers.  Jesusfreak, I really do love you, I hope you will hear what I am trying to convey.

[Kimberley Tobin]

I'm waiting too Heide!  How about an apology that says, "Eulaha, we are sorry that we told you it would be sinful to leave the Assembly.  We are sorry for threatening me to stop talking to others about why you left the group."  I'm assuming that aplogy is in the works.  All I can do is assume.

I am curious, from whom are you looking for this?  Do they know you were offended?  Are you expecting people who have already failed you by offending you to *know* that they did?  I personally hope that when offend someone, they would come to me and tell me, otherwise i would have had no idea.  Granted, i do not know your personal situation in all this, nor do i know *everything* that has transpired, but be sure that they know you were offended, and that you are seeking a apology for the spite of pride.   God desires greater things for you than for you to remain bitter, find that peace.

I am really sorry to see you so supporting these men in SLO, Jesusfreak.  I understand it is the assembly teaching, etc., however, let's not be stupid here.  The issue that was going on in SLO we have all read about.  These men KNOW who they called liars, slanderers, etc, etc, etc.  It is ridiculous to think that these women/men who were spoken of in these ways should go to these men and tell them they were offended.  

And for the rest of those in the assemblies:  You know who you are who spoke of those who have left in the past.  You don't have to have these ones come to you.  Let your conscience be your guide (not the conscience that has been recently taught about in the assembly.)  But that conscience that you are trying to suppress that is telling you over and over, humble yourself and make things right.

[Corey]

Kimberly,

Thank you for those words.  Yes, treating people who leave like that IS/WAS wrong.

I have been party to that in the past, but no more.  I have called many people who I did that too, and have asked for forgiveness.  I will do that no longer.

Also, please note, that I have been breaking away from doing that for quite some time.  I have a good friend in Seattle who left SLO that I'm in constant contact with (he left years ago).  I have several other friends who no longer come out to the meetings, and I'm in constant contact with them.  I pray with one man on a somewhat regular basis, and we get together for lunch quite often.  Another family that is no longer coming to our meetings, I have told them that I will not shun them, and that they are my friends.  I am supportive in their decision, and we still see each other quite often.

If this ever happens in SLO again, I want to know about it.  

Also, we have had fellowships in SLO a few times for people leaving and going into other ministries.  I believe the Lord was opening our eyes to this wrong long before the breakthrough last weekend.  I'm not saying it has not happened, but I am saying it is wrong, and should not happen again.

Thanks for your input Kimberly, it much appreciated.

Best regards,

Corey