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Author Topic: New Earth/Old Earth  (Read 45075 times)
al Hartman
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« Reply #30 on: March 14, 2003, 01:05:32 am »



Hey Arthur,

     Just as a matter of interest:

     Where i eat lunch, Wednesday is primordial soup day. Alphabet soup on Tuesday, bean on Thursday, Monday cream of tomato, and Friday clam chowder (closed clams, from the top of some mountain).

     Anyone who believes that life can evolve from rocks has potential evolution in his head.  There are, however, some people who seem to have evolved INTO rocks.

     For any who are dissatisfied with Arthur's explanation of the flood, try Bill Cosby's version.  Not as accurate, but VERY entertaining!

al


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Arthur
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« Reply #31 on: March 14, 2003, 02:04:15 am »

Really?  hehe   Cheesy  You'd almost be scared to eat it 'cause you may be dooming a whole planet-full of future species by eating their ancestor.   Grin
Do you sip the soup while petting your pet rock?
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Oscar
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« Reply #32 on: March 14, 2003, 07:18:34 am »

This is a great topic, one of my most and least favorite to discuss.  I am one of those naughty worldly Christians  Wink who believes that the earth is 4.5 billion years old and that evolution probably occurred in some form or another.  I also believe in what the Bible says, though, to paraphrase Tom, I don't think it necessarily says what some think it does.

My bottom line view is this: God gave us two powerful tools to reveal Himself to us: The Bible and the beautiful, magnificent Earth.  If we think the two are contradictory, maybe we need to look again at how it's possible that they do agree, after all.  God was the first scientist, and created the most awesome science project.  Grin  I don't believe that every scientific discovery is part of an atheist plot to discredit the Bible, but rather that the Lord is providing for the discovery and realization of His existence through scientific progress.

For anyone interested who happens to be in SLO, you should stop by the Geology department at Cuesta College and talk to Paul Bauer.  Or the Biology department, and talk to Evy Cheatham (conveniently, their offices are located in the same hallway).  These are very smart Christians who are also very knowledgeable scholars.  

Amen Karen,

TWO powerful methods of revelation.  

"The heavens are telling of the glory of God; and their expanse is declaring the work of  His hands.
Day to day pours forth speech, and night to night reveals knowledge"  Ps 19:1-2  NASV

"For since the creation of the world, (the greek word is KOSMOS), His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse."  Romans 1:20 NASV

So...not only has God made a beautiful world, He has placed it in a beautiful universe as well.

God bless,
Thomas Maddux
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Oscar
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« Reply #33 on: March 14, 2003, 08:09:55 am »


Arthur,

First of all let me say that your concern for my "heretical" opionions is largely unfounded.  I believe that God judged the entire human race by a great flood, and that only eight souls escaped, in an ark.

My one difference with SOME  of my bretheren is that I believe that the flood was local in extent, covering the area of Mesopotamia where the human race lived before the dispersion of Genesis 11.

I also do not believe in the origin of life by natural processes, descent with modification, Darwinian gradualism, or Theistic (or guided) evolution.

Arthur, I will give you a bit of unsolicited advice about Young Earth Creationists...they are not all of the same caliber.  
I noticed that you had quoted from "Dr. Dino's website.

This is "Doctor" Kent Hovind.  His "Doctorate" is in education, and comes from a diploma mill called Patriot University, currently housed in a split level house in Aurora, Colorado, (not sure about the state, but if you are interested you can find pictures on the web).

I have a videotape where he tried to debate Dr. Hugh Ross, (who has a real Phd. in Astrophysics), on the John Ankerberg show.  The poor man revealed his ignorance if science in several ways.

The one that really surprised me was when Dr. Ross mentioned that Neanderthal men had huge nasal cavaties.  Hovind asked, "Do you mean they had big noses"?

Another one was when he said, "I think the Big Bang theory is the most ridiculous thing I have ever hear. I mean after all, what exploded?"
This reveals that he doesn't have a clue what the Big Bang theory is.  It is definitely not about something exploding.

Another Young Earth Creationist champion is Dr. Dr. Dr. Carl Baugh, who maintains the museum in Texas where the supposed dinosaur and human footprints are found together.  

The reason I said Dr. Dr. Dr. is because he claims to have earned Phd's in Archeology, Physics, Anthropology and some others.  They were granted to him by a University which seems to be a desk at a Baptist church in Australia. I recently heard him claim the earth was created out of water, and then later God put a sort of rock "shell" over the water.

Incidentally, the best of the Young Earth Creationist (YEC) organizations, the Institute for Creation Research under the Morrises, no longer claims that the footprints are really human.  

My personal opinion is that these men are frauds that make money by telling some Christians what they want to hear.

Answers In Genesis is a step up from these guys, and has some real scientists on board.  Unorthodox ones, true, but at least they have real degrees.

The best of them is ICR, that has a team of real scientists on its staff, and will occassionally admit they were wrong about some of their claims.  This is something that they have had many opportunities to do, what with the moon dust etc..

So, be careful what you quote, you might just be quoting some "fact" that was made up last week.

My dinner is getting cold, more later.

God bless,

Thomas Maddux
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Oscar
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« Reply #34 on: March 15, 2003, 06:40:42 am »


Arthur,

I've been looking at the list you took off of Hovind's website.

It contains some really "interesting" claims.

One real puzzler was number 5.  The ark had a hole in the bottom to stabilize it.   I wonder how all the naval architects in history missed this one?  Imagine if the prow of a ship crests a big wave and the nose begins to dive down the back of the wave, while amidships the water level is higher than the prow, where all the water in that opening would go.  My guess is right out the top and all through the ship.

But he also points out a real benefit...it would pump out all the dangerous gasses from the animals.  By this I assume that he means methane from animal flatulance.  Well, I guess you really wouldn't want to be around very close when an apatasaurus, (they used to call them brontosaurus), had to relieve a little digestive gas.

You also wouldn't want to be around if one of Noah's sons decided to light up a cigarrette soon after the apatasaurus felt better.

You take this guy seriously?

Number 7 says that skeletons 11 feet tall have been found.
Pray tell, which university or museum has these on display?
Notice how he blithely assumes that the Bible's authors measured Noah to establish the length of a cubit.  I guess everyone had their personal cubit?  But if an 11 footer showed up one day they would measure him and then set the standard on him.  

Number 16 says that if the earth were smooth, there is enough water to cover the entire earth with 8000 feet of water.  That could be true, (I have never seen any calculations), but so what?  A bull frog wouldn't bump his rear end when he jumped if he had wings.  The trouble is that frogs don't have wings and the earth isn't smooth.

Hovind tries to use Psalm 104 to support the idea that God essentially re-created the earth after the flood.  The problem is that Psalm 104: 1-9 is referring to the creation of the heavens and the earth, and the creation of land on an earth originally covered with water, (Genesis 1:1-10), it is a poetic restatement of the creation story.   Genesis 8 just says the waters subsided.

In fact, what the Bible actually says when you compare Genesis 1:9-10 with Psalm 104:6-9 is that when God created the sea he said that the waters "...may not return to cover the earth."

In number 18 he claims that Genesis 10:25 proves that the continents were separated 100-300 years after the flood.
Genesis 10:25 says, "And two sons were born to Eber; the name of the one was Peleg, for in his days the earth was divided...".   This, according to Hovind, refers to high speed continental drift.   Interesting exegesis.  


In number 20 he points out that sedimentary rock is found all over the world, and that this type of rock is formed in water.   No news there.

But what he does not seem to know is that when the earth's total sedimentary rock, stated in cubic kilometers, is compared to the total amount of water in cubic K's, the ratio is 2 to 1.  If you mix 1 part dirt with 2 parts water, you get a thick creamy mud, not water.  This would have killed all aquatic life on earth.  No, all the sedimentary rock was not layed down in one flood.

And so on and on, and I have not even addressed the Achillies Heel of YEC thinking.

Arthur this is an example of why I gave up MY belief in a 6000-1000 year old earth back in the 1970's.

God bless,

Thomas Maddux

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al Hartman
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« Reply #35 on: March 15, 2003, 10:19:31 am »


Footnotes to a few of Tom's observations:

Tom noted:
The ark had a hole in the bottom to stabilize it.   I wonder how all the naval architects in history missed this one?
-------------------------------------------------------
Footnote:  This thread has already noted that people were much smarter in those days.  Modern engineers aren't capable of this advanced design.
===============================
Tom noted:
But he also points out a real benefit...it would pump out all the dangerous gasses from the animals.  By this I assume that he means methane from animal flatulance.  Well, I guess you really wouldn't want to be around very close when an apatasaurus, (they used to call them brontosaurus), had to relieve a little digestive gas.
--------------------------------------------------------
Footnote:  The two apatasauri were stationed at the back of the boat, with their tails over the rail & in the water.  Their flatulence created the first evinrude outboard forward propulsion, resulting in pleasant breezes topside.
================================
Tom noted:
You also wouldn't want to be around if one of Noah's sons decided to light up a cigarrette soon after the apatasaurus felt better.
----------------------------------------------------------
Footnote:  The boat was all wood.  NO SMOKING!!!
=================================
Tom noted:
Number 7 says that skeletons 11 feet tall have been found.
Pray tell, which university or museum has these on display?
----------------------------------------------------------
Footnote:  Have you never heard of the Cardiff Giant?  Good grief, man, come out of your cave!
=================================
Tom noted:
Notice how he blithely assumes that the Bible's authors measured Noah to establish the length of a cubit.  I guess everyone had their personal cubit?  
----------------------------------------------------------
Footnote:  Thus it is said, The taller the guy, the longer his cubit.
=================================
Tom noted:
In number 18 he claims that Genesis 10:25 proves that the continents were separated 100-300 years after the flood.
Genesis 10:25 says, "And two sons were born to Eber; the name of the one was Peleg, for in his days the earth was divided...".   This, according to Hovind, refers to high speed continental drift.   Interesting exegesis.  
----------------------------------------------------------
Footnote:  This rate of continental drift would have caused wakes that provided some fantastastic surfing!

Just thought you'd want to know!

al



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4Him
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« Reply #36 on: March 16, 2003, 10:41:37 am »

Arthur,
I've been looking at the list you took off of Hovind's website.
It contains some really "interesting" claims.
...
You take this guy seriously?
...
And so on and on, and I have not even addressed the Achillies Heel of YEC thinking.
Arthur this is an example of why I gave up MY belief in a 6000-1000 year old earth back in the 1970's.
God bless,
Thomas Maddux
OK Tom, I should know it but I don't.  Please do address that "achilles heel". Smiley
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Oscar
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« Reply #37 on: March 17, 2003, 03:33:48 am »


Tim,

Would you be so kind as to tell me how you did that?

I know how to cut and paste lines or paragraphs on this board, but I don't know how to quote a line or paragraph.

When I try I just get the whole post as a quote.

Would you either post your reply or e-mail it to me?

Thanks,
Tom M.
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Oscar
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« Reply #38 on: March 17, 2003, 04:25:31 am »

Arthur,
I've been looking at the list you took off of Hovind's website.
It contains some really "interesting" claims.
...
You take this guy seriously?
...
And so on and on, and I have not even addressed the Achillies Heel of YEC thinking.
Arthur this is an example of why I gave up MY belief in a 6000-1000 year old earth back in the 1970's.
God bless,
Thomas Maddux
OK Tom, I should know it but I don't.  Please do address that "achilles heel". Smiley

OK Tim,


The young earth community stigmatizes anyone who disagrees with them by calling them "evolutionists" or something akin to that.
Christian scientists who are OEC's (old earth creationists) are said to have compromised the faith by trying to be accepted in the athiest academic community.  In other words an Ad Hominem attack is made on their characters in order to discredit their science.   Not valid, but effecive in the YEC audience.

But, they are hiding something they don't like to talk about.  Here goes;

The fossil record contains evidence of about 500,000,000 species of land animals.   That is a lot...especially if you have to fit them all on the ark, along with enough food for a year. This raises several problems.

One is from Genesis 2:19-20.  This is on the sixth day, which, according to their thinking is a 24 hour day. Adam names all the animals.  How can you name 500,000,000 different types of animals in 24 hours?    This seems a tad fast for most folks. That doesn't even account for the fact that Adam had to work in the garden and get operated on during the sixth day.

Another is the problem of the ark.  Even if the cubit was based on an 11 foot man the ark wouldn't have anywhere near enough room for 500,000,000 pairs, as well as 14 of each clean animal.   Even after speculatiing about taking only babies and sudden ability to hibernate on the part of almost every species, there is just not enough room.

So, the answer is given that God created each animal according to a "kind" which is understood to be a sort of genetic archetype of a group of animals.  The varieties then developed from these "kinds".  Lions, tigers, tabby cats, bobcats, and so on were not really created.  One "cat kind" was created and the others are descendents of that "kind".

This has to have happened twice.  Once after the original creation, (giving Adam less animals to name), and again after the flood which took place from 2349-2348 BC, according to Archbishop Ussher.  The entire earth was populated, then repopulated in just a few hundred years each time.

Now, what is process that drives this incredibly rapid speciation process???

The dirty little secret is  EVOLUTION!   Yup, that's what I said, EVOLUTION!  Young Earth Creationists believe in evolution at a rate FAR EXCEEDING the most radical estimates of the most dedicated evolutionists.

Secular evolutionists believe that the current population of about 5,000,000 species of land animals is descended from millions of species that died off eons ago.  YEC's have to have them all alive at once.  AND they have to have developed from a few thousand "kinds" in a couple of centuries...TWICE.

YEC's frequently claim that there is another process that takes place to account for this...BUT THEY NEVER SAY EXACTLY WHAT IT IS.  They also have no fossil evidence to offer in support of this claim.

But when pressed to defend their case, they try.  A Christian biologist once pointed out to me that Answers in Genesis, trying to prove their case, (in an article about Polar Bear's webbed feet), had cited secular articles about genetic mutations in support of their contention.    

SOUNDS LIKE EVOLUTION TO ME!

That Tim, is the dirty little (not so) secret.

I think that Progressive Creationism is much more plausible than either the evolutionists belief, or that of the YEC community.

God bless,
Thomas Maddux
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4Him
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« Reply #39 on: March 17, 2003, 11:48:21 am »

OK Tim,
The young earth community stigmatizes anyone who disagrees with them by calling them "evolutionists" or something akin to that.
...
I think that Progressive Creationism is much more plausible than either the evolutionists belief, or that of the YEC community.
God bless,
Thomas Maddux
Thanks Tom,
It does seem that there is a lot of name calling on the YEC's part.  Kind of hinders real debate.
I also agree that Progressive Creationism or something akin is more fitting with real science and the Bible.  This has been apparent to me ever since I read "The Fingerprint of God" by Hugh Ross several years ago.
An added question I have is, When did Lucifer fall? and, What effect did this have on the universe?  While there are no sure answers out there (I don't think), his fall could be a cause for several mysteries of the cosmos, especially earth and the immediate solar system.  Shocked
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Joe Sperling
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« Reply #40 on: March 17, 2003, 09:19:09 pm »

Tim----

It's interesting you mention "The Fingerprint of
God" by Hugh Ross. That book was a real eye-opener
for me too!! This man is a real Christian, but also a
real scientist too. Another book that isn't really scientific
so to speak but is very interesting is "The Invisible War"
by John Barnhouse. He goes into a lot of detail regarding
the fall of Lucifer, and the huge gap in time that could
have taken place at his fall. Barnhouse's book is far more conjecture than any scientific proof but it is a good read.

Take care,  Joe
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Arthur
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« Reply #41 on: March 18, 2003, 12:23:56 am »


An added question I have is, When did Lucifer fall? and, What effect did this have on the universe?  While there are no sure answers out there (I don't think), his fall could be a cause for several mysteries of the cosmos, especially earth and the immediate solar system.  Shocked

Tim, I wrote the verses that state when lucifier fell in this same thread on March 6.  Here is the link, or you can click "3" in the menu list above.

http://www.briantucker.net/bb/index.php?board=6;action=display;threadid=328;start=30
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Arthur
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« Reply #42 on: March 18, 2003, 01:57:04 am »


But, they are hiding something they don't like to talk about.  Here goes;

The fossil record contains evidence of about 500,000,000 species of land animals.   That is a lot...especially if you have to fit them all on the ark, along with enough food for a year. This raises several problems.

No need to hide from this issue.  The explanation is straight-forward.  The Bible says that Noah took onto the ark two of every kind of animal (male and female), and seven pair of every clean animal, and seven pair of every bird.

So he took a pair of each kind of animal - a pair of cats, a pair of dogs, a pair of elephants, a pair of each kind of dinosaur, a pair of zebras, a pair of eagles, etc.  as well as food for each and had room to spare. The Bible refers to the different types of animals as "kind" or "sort".

The 500,000 species that you are referring to today are variations within kinds, and not kinds themselves.  "Kind" in the Bible is probably closer to "Family" (of which there are about 160 known families today) in the Linnean system of taxonomy that is used today.  

You see what happened after the flood is that the animals migrated all throughout the earth and adapted to their environments.  A dog didn't come from a banana--like some evolutionists claim--rather the creature that was the dog kind that Noah took onto the boat adapted and bred through many generations and now we have pit bulls, St. Bernards, Chihuahuas, Terriers, etc. and wolves, coyote's and fox's probably had the same ancestor on Noah's boat.

This "microevolution" is the only form of "evolution" (if you can call it that) that is directly observable and reproducable today.  As a matter of fact, it is done all the time today by breeders.  It is a variation within a kind, not producing a whole new kind of animal!!!  You can not get a cat out of a dog given "millions of years" like some evolutionists claim ("Origin of Species")!

Also, note that you do not gain genetic information when you do selective breeding, rather genetic information is lost.  In other words, you can't breed back to the original dog kind that Noah brought on board.  It's genetic information is spread throughout all the variations that we see today.  

The thought that all species came from some primordial soup is preposterous and goes against the Second Law of Thermodynamics.  Nothing that has been observed in science gives any indication that life spontaneously generates out of non-life (unless God says so, which he did in the beginning, hence Creation --but that is not billions of years of death and mutation that evolutionists claim--only 6 days like he said, and it was good  Smiley.  Rather, everything that scientists observe clearly shows that things are wearing down, loosing energy, loosing genetic information, etc.  

The ordering and naming of plants and animals that is in use today is the Linnean system, arranged by Carl Linnaeus -- the Father of Taxonomy.  Interesting to note that he was a creationist who saw the beauty and wonder in God's creation.  He wrote in his books: Systema Naturae: Creationis telluris est gloria Dei ex opere Naturae per Hominem solum - The Earth's creation is the glory of God, as seen from the works of Nature by Man alone.

Also, Linnaeus wrote,
Unitas in omni specie ordinem ducit (The invariability of species is the condition for order [in nature]).
You see that he believed, as the Bible says, that God made each creature according to its kind, and that boundary cannot be crossed.



Here are the verses for reference:

Gen 6
17 And, behold, I, even I, do bring a flood of waters upon the earth, to destroy all flesh, wherein is the breath of life, from under heaven; and every thing that is in the earth shall die. 18 But with thee will I establish my covenant; and thou shalt come into the ark, thou, and thy sons, and thy wife, and thy sons' wives with thee. 19 And of every living thing of all flesh, two of every sort shalt thou bring into the ark, to keep them alive with thee; they shall be male and female. 20 Of fowls after their kind, and of cattle after their kind, of every creeping thing of the earth after his kind, two of every sort shall come unto thee, to keep them alive. 21 And take thou unto thee of all food that is eaten, and thou shalt gather it to thee; and it shall be for food for thee, and for them. 22 Thus did Noah; according to all that God commanded him, so did he.

Gen 7
13 In the selfsame day entered Noah, and Shem, and Ham, and Japheth, the sons of Noah, and Noah's wife, and the three wives of his sons with them, into the ark; 14 They, and every beast after his kind, and all the cattle after their kind, and every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth after his kind, and every fowl after his kind, every bird of every sort. 15 And they went in unto Noah into the ark, two and two of all flesh, wherein is the breath of life. 16 And they that went in, went in male and female of all flesh, as God had commanded him: and the LORD shut him in.

Also in, Gen 1, we see that God originally made them according to their kind:
21 And God created great whales, and every living creature that moveth, which the waters brought forth abundantly, after their kind, and every winged fowl after his kind: and God saw that it was good. 22 And God blessed them, saying, Be fruitful, and multiply, and fill the waters in the seas, and let fowl multiply in the earth. 23 And the evening and the morning were the fifth day. 24 And God said, Let the earth bring forth the living creature after his kind, cattle, and creeping thing, and beast of the earth after his kind: and it was so. 25 And God made the beast of the earth after his kind, and cattle after their kind, and every thing that creepeth upon the earth after his kind: and God saw that it was good.
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Arthur
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« Reply #43 on: March 18, 2003, 02:38:03 am »

Tom, Joe, Tim or whoever else wishes to answer, let's get some terms straight, and also clearly state what you believe.  

I will state what I believe:
I believe that the Bible is the Word of God, and as such is accurate and true.
I believe that in the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth.  
I believe that the first day that ever existed was the day that God said "Let there be light..." and that there was no time as we know it before that first day.  
I believe that each day in the Genesis 1 account is a literal day, the same as what we consider to be a "day" today, i.e. 24 hours.  
I believe that in the first six days of the universe's existence, God created the heavens, the earth, the sea and everything that is in them.  
I believe that those first six days were about 6,000 years ago, and I believe that about 4,400 years God destroyed the world that then was with a flood.  
I believe that God spared Noah and seven others as well as at least one pair of all living creatures that have the breath of life by preserving them in an ark that was not destroyed by the flood.
I have neither personally seen nor heard that others have discovered conclusive proof that disproves what the Bible says.
Nor have I personally seen or heard that others have discovered conclusive proof that proves the evolution theory for the origin of the universe, origin of galaxies, stars and planets, origin of complex molecules, origin of life, or the origin of species.  

Now you, please define "Progressive Creationism".  

In particular, do you or do you not believe:

1.  The earth is 4+ billion years old (or at least a whole lot older than 6,000) years?

2.  The explanation for the origin of the species--species that we see living today and that are in the fossils is that they the came about through the evolutionary process?
And, if this is what you believe, please explain the evolutionary process, including what the starting point is, and where that starting point came from.


Arthur
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Oscar
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« Reply #44 on: March 19, 2003, 11:03:27 am »



Arthur,

I want to and intend to answer your last two posts.
However, I have a test tomorrow night and won't be back on the board until at least Thursday.  It might be into the weekend, but answers are on the way.

God bless,
Thomas Maddux
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