Why Leaders Are Responsible

[M2]

...
This radical repentance of Zaccheus is what is still lacking in almost every leader or ex-leader of a Geftakys group.  Note, I said almost every leader - but some have truly repented.  And there are others who held or wanted or strove for priveleged positions - whether doorkeeper, worker, head steward, leading couple, ad nauseaum - who still need to repent.

When I was on my way to Ottawa to 'serve the Lord' as we put it then, in an airplane, Armand and Nancy sitting beside me, there was a magazine featuring Jim and Tammy Baker and their Christian theme park or whatever it was, and Tammy's lovely mascara job, anyone remember that?  Anyhoo, I remember Armand pushing the airline magazine in my face, disgusted by the worldliness.  Months later, when the dynasty fell (the Jim and Tammy dynasty) Armand posted a newspaper clipping on his fridge about it.  Jim got time, jail time and Armand grunted something or other about how well deserved that was.  Wonder if George is getting time.  Hope so.  Anyhoo, as Marcia has pointed out, in Ottawa, we weren't influenced by GG anyway.  So there's just no comparison, is there?
delila

Jim, with all of his worldly ministry and all, was at least humble enough to truly repent when he was exposed for his wrong doing.  He wrote a book "I Was Wrong" which I have not read, but have skimmed.  Quite a title.  The closest I have heard from a local LB is, "well, some things were wrong, but we have made changes to lighten the load with shorter meetings."

Lord bless,
Marcia

PS. MarkC, the penguins are an Ottawa, Canada theme. Hugh has the Linux one, so I had to find something else.  It's coold up here now-a-days. We're definitely not walking around in our shorts, and gardening in our backyards.

[BeckyW]

Has everyone read the new articles on 'evil' on the assembly reflections website?  I'd say Don't miss them.
Thanks again, Steve and Margaret.
Becky

And just one comment on the greedy and cheap section.  Expenses in Annandale were never very high.  Building rent. Small stuff. But salaries are pretty decent out here in the DC area, & a reliable source tells us that box in the back of the room often had a lot of money in it.
But we were still asked to give extra money for parade t-shirts.  And Vacation Bible School supplies.  And some pizza fellowships, etc., etc. None of us ever minded either because we thought the money in the box went around this needy world doing good.
Now there was no accounting as we are now well aware, but it's about 100 % sure that most of the money taken in here for 17 plus years went straight to George.  

[M2]

extracted from Kristin's Story http://www.geftakysassembly.com/Articles/PersonalAccounts/Kristin.htm

Covering Up
In the early fall, I phoned the Midwest elder who had transmitted correspondence originally between GG and me. I told him that I had repented of the relationship with GG, and that I had made things right with GG’s wife; about a week later, I called him back to tell him that the relationship had been physical, although not “consummated”, the only word I could think of to explain to him the reality of the situation. He was concerned that the relationship was not going to start again, and that I was not going to begin writing letters again to GG on this year’s Fall Journey, and I emphatically said NO, that it was over. He asked me what I thought needed to be done, and I told him that I would leave the work, go back to the Midwest, make a public confession, whatever. He asked me why I thought people needed to know about it, and I explained that I had lived a double life in front of my roommates, for instance, and that I should make that right. He told me he didn’t think I needed to do that, that he would confront GG, and then hand the issue over to two of the elders in Fullerton, since I was under their local leadership.

This elder phoned back a couple of weeks later to clarify what I meant by “a physical relationship”. I started by telling him that GG kissed me once. He clarified that it was a romantic kiss. Then I was searching for the words to tell him what else happened (“fondling” wasn’t in my assembly vocabulary), and I couldn’t find the words. He finally said, “If GG says that he never laid a hand on you?” “That would be a lie,” I said, and that was the end of the conversation. He understood that GG had kissed and touched me.

This elder did confront GG on the last day of the Fall Journey overseas, and GG said he never laid a hand on me. The elder apparently believed GG, and communicated this to the two Fullerton elders, and they spoke with GG briefly about it when he returned home from his journey. I never knew that they thought GG neither kissed me nor touched me; I operated under the assumption that they knew. I was waiting for them to send me home and kick me out of the work, but that never happened. One of the elders and I did sit down together soon after GG returned. He asked me, “So, what do you think of yourself?” I didn’t know what he meant. I told him that there were things that I didn’t know if I should tell him, meaning about the marriage proposal and the dream (I wasn’t sure if I had confessed enough or not) and he said, “I don’t know if you should tell me either.” Then I said, “If there’s anything you want to know about what happened between GG and me, please ask.” He said, “Am I asking?” We prayed at the end of the meeting, and that was it.

I never considered “leaving fellowship”; I was 100% committed to what I believed was God’s corporate will for the body of Christ, the New Testament pattern that I believed we were following so closely in the assembly. I didn’t think anything was wrong with the “system” (and I wouldn’t have dared to call it that — I believed it was a living organism, after all, the “true expression of Christ on earth”). I was willing to do whatever the leadership decided needed to be done upon the disclosure of my sin, and it seemed to me at that point that their choice was to do nothing. I felt angry at GG, but I thought he was protected by God as God’s appointed leader and founder of the assembly; for the sake of the “testimony”, I believed that this was a good thing. It had all been a terrible mistake, I felt; perhaps God was covering for the mistake. I failed to understand that the system that GG created was covering his sin for him.

When I read Kristin's account, and before I make any conclusions, I am curious as to why the LB told Kristin that she did not need to resign from the work, return to her home assembly, and make a public confession.  It appears that he said this before he confronted GG and believed GG's lies.  He believed GG's lies even after confirming with Kristin that GG would be lying if he said that he had never laid a hand on her.  Also, I do not understand why the LB even went on the fall journey with GG without having confronted GG first.  After all Kristin had exposed GG on a pretty major issue here.

Then there is the Fullerton (I think) elder who said, “So, what do you think of yourself?” to Kristin.  Why did he phrase his question that way?  And why did he act like he wasn't asking Kristin but wanted her to tell him.

Marcia

[Joseph Reisinger]

Marcia,
The questions you bring up greatly trouble me... and I believe that those who are implicated in this account of abuse need to be very open about their involvement and what exactly they did.  Certainly it appears from reading the account that there were many opportunities for this issue to come to light, and instead, they were covered up or only half-heartedly pursued; and even that in a GG-biased manner.
Joseph

[mithrandir]

When one reads Kristin's account of what happened to her and how it was handled, one can only conclude that it came as no surprise to the leaders she initially told about the situation.  Also, Kristin's account of the failure of the "Midwest Elder" to do anything substantive about George's abuse was corroborated to me last year by a person who knows Kristin, but is not a member of this bb.  I still believe that the only reason George was dealt with by the Fullerton and Placentia leaders was that they could no longer keep the lid on the corruption in the Geftakys assemblies.

I am amazed that even to this day I am still hearing from people who suggest that my anger at the leaders is really "anger against God", or who suggest that "since we don't really have all the facts, we should believe the best about these men."  One thing I will say: I don't believe that every worker or leading brother was corrupt or wicked.  But I do believe that the leaders in SLO were either corrupt or very, very naive.  In either case, they shouldn't have been leaders.  And I believe that all of the Fullerton leaders, save one (and maybe another) were corrupt.  I speak of those who were leaders when the house of Geftakys collapsed.  I believe the corrupt ones supported George even though they knew full well what kind of a man he was, and that they themselves committed evil on their own, in addition to covering for George.  In the case of the one (or maybe two) of whom this wasn't true, I'd say again, that these were very, very naive men who shouldn't have been leaders.  In the case of the leaders in Placentia, I know that all three of the leaders who are still in Placentia are corrupt.

I understand that we all participated in the assemblies.  But the majority of us did not deliberately choose to get involved in things we knew to be criminal.  Some of us acted like jerks for the sake of the testimony (I was one who did this), and we are now apologizing and making amends for what we did.  But these leaders are not repentant.

I understand that people can believe whatever they want.  But as for me, I have already stated how I intend to proceed regarding these men: they are not getting within a thousand country miles of me unless and until they bring forth undeniable fruits of repentance.  And in case anyone thinks I'm putting my life on hold until that happens, I can assure you that that is not so.  I hate to have to beat a dead horse, but I think these things need to be said again and again right now.

Clarence Thompson

[M2]

Marcia,
The questions you bring up greatly trouble me... and I believe that those who are implicated in this account of abuse need to be very open about their involvement and what exactly they did.  Certainly it appears from reading the account that there were many opportunities for this issue to come to light, and instead, they were covered up or only half-heartedly pursued; and even that in a GG-biased manner.
Joseph

Hi Joseph,

It would be great if we could indeed query the individuals, but from the way they have treated me here I am not even going to try.  So I am querying the BB, and if anyone has info and can help me understand, I would appreciate your comments.

Clarence, I am inclined to agree with your conclusions on the matter.  Why would the Fullerton LB ask Kristin, “So, what do you think of yourself?” instead of, "Help me to understand what happened? I am interested in hearing your side of the story." or something like that.

Instead of protecting the sheep, some of these leaders allowed the sheep to be thrown to the wolves.  I know of another incident, months after GG's excomm...  where 'the testimony' was more important than the sheep, and one leader counselled someone to remain in an abusive situation.  These guys are still out there giving counsel the 'old fashioned' way.  Remember, they were all trained in GG's cemetary.

Marcia Marinier

[delila]

Dear Marcia:
I have been enjoying a much needed break from the bb and I'm sure the bb has enjoyed a much needed break from me.
And I come back to find what?  Marcia, still asking the same questions in a loop I think I've torn myself out of, and, most happily

I think for me it was important to stop trying to understand the mind which is devoid of conscience.  If my children (forbid it should happen) were killed by some nut case, it would not be healthy for me to be forever seeking to discover exactly what it was in the mind of the nut case that he thought he could do away with my precious ones.  Sooner or later, though devestated and scarred for life, I'd have to stop trying to analyze the diseased brain that damaged my life.

And I know you Marcia, I know the kind person that you are, the loving mother and wife and citizen of this planet, and I know that you will never be able to empathize with the dastardly leadership that hurt so many of the people that you care about, that lied to you and yet refuses to see or acknowledge what was done.  Perhaps you should redirect your efforts to teaching your children to be critical thinkers so that they do not fall into similar traps.  Cults and controlling people are to be found elsewhere, not just in the assembly.  Nut cases run free for the most part.  It's a fact.

love ya Marcia

delila

[M2]

Dear Delila,

It's great to hear your 'voice' on this BB again.

Remember Delila, someone famous said, and someone infamous quoted "the heart has it's reason's that the mind knows nothing of" or is it the other way round?

But anyway, bear with me as I attempt to figure some of this out.  I do believe that it may benefit others as well.  So do you have any answers for me?

Much love and God bless,
Marcia

[delila]

Dear Delila,

It's great to hear your 'voice' on this BB again.

Remember Delila, someone famous said, and someone infamous quoted "the heart has it's reason's that the mind knows nothing of" or is it the other way round?

But anyway, bear with me as I attempt to figure some of this out.  I do believe that it may benefit others as well.  So do you have any answers for me?

Much love and God bless,
Marcia

my answer is:
yes, I can bear with you forever.
And yes, I figure and I figure and what I figure doesn't give me an answer to changing what is.
And yes, I look at it (assembly politics etc) as a great big hole that's never full, no matter how much understanding, and figuring and thinking you put into it.
And I say to my children, when so and so said bla bla bla, what do you think s/he meant? and why?  and how does that make you feel and what if... and that helps me a great deal.

prevention may be the best cure, but yeah, I figure on
d

[BeckyW]

Marcia,
The questions you bring up greatly trouble me... and I believe that those who are implicated in this account of abuse need to be very open about their involvement and what exactly they did.  Certainly it appears from reading the account that there were many opportunities for this issue to come to light, and instead, they were covered up or only half-heartedly pursued; and even that in a GG-biased manner.
Joseph

Hi Joseph,

It would be great if we could indeed query the individuals, but from the way they have treated me here I am not even going to try.  So I am querying the BB, and if anyone has info and can help me understand, I would appreciate your comments.

Clarence, I am inclined to agree with your conclusions on the matter.  Why would the Fullerton LB ask Kristin, “So, what do you think of yourself?” instead of, "Help me to understand what happened? I am interested in hearing your side of the story." or something like that.

Instead of protecting the sheep, some of these leaders allowed the sheep to be thrown to the wolves.  I know of another incident, months after GG's excomm...  where 'the testimony' was more important than the sheep, and one leader counselled someone to remain in an abusive situation.  These guys are still out there giving counsel the 'old fashioned' way.  Remember, they were all trained in GG's cemetary.

Marcia Marinier

Marcia and all,
Geo. taught that the first characteristic of the Godhead is Humility.  Yet, behind the scenes, he was not humble or subject to anyone.
He taught conditional entrance into the kingdom, holiness and separation in order to be part of the bride of Christ.  But, he lived in the darkness and immorality of unconfessed sin for at least 20 years.
He taught at seminars on the Song of Solomon that it is a totally metaphorical book about Christ and His church and had no sexual/marital meaning at all.  However, he wrote defiling poetry and letters to innocent young women, and abused them.
I remember when I first learned that a young single woman went to the brother's house where gg stayed on the journey, to wash his feet.  I thought that was very weird.  But by the time I heard this, I had been taught, by leaders & others, that gg was a godly man, the Lord's servant,  his whole godly family feared and served the Lord, he believed you could lose your soul and be cast into outer darkness if you weren't careful to 'walk with the Lord', and on and on...
So, I rationalized, hmmm, to the pure all things are pure.  It must be my lack of purity that causes me to think washing his feet is a totally inappropriate thing for that sister to be doing.
I say all this to illustrate, it must have been almost imposssible for these brethren to admit the truth even to themselves that their main spiritual guide and example was so incredibly immoral.  It does not compute.
I am not in any way, shape or form, excusing them, just thinking out loud.  But I surely know now I was wrong in Omaha for not saying, loudly, "that is nuts that she is washing his feet".
Becky

[M2]

...
I say all this to illustrate, it must have been almost imposssible for these brethren to admit the truth even to themselves that their main spiritual guide and example was so incredibly immoral.  It does not compute.
I am not in any way, shape or form, excusing them, just thinking out loud.  But I surely know now I was wrong in Omaha for not saying, loudly, "that is nuts that she is washing his feet".
Becky

Becky,

This is a very important point you make.  If I may, in other words (mine) these brethren were trained in GG's cemetary and lacked spiritual discernment and were/are not fit to be shepherds over any flock.  Most, if not all, of them were novices when GG took them under his wing and trained them to be leaders in his house.  Yet now they still hold positions of leadership, OR they still advise and counsel, OR they still go around and infect healthy churches with their poisonous stew.

Though, I must confess that if someone told me what Kristin told that LB, and knowing about the extensive emails etc.  I would not go with GG on a journey until I had confronted him.  I might have believed GGs lies and gone anyway, but not before confronting him.

I pose another scenario.  What if Kristin was one of those LB's daughters?  Would the 'reaction time' have been different?

Lord bless,
Marcia

P.S.
And Becky, these leaders accomodated George in their homes, I never did.  They saw him be himself.  The LBW here would tell me some of GG's idiotsynchrisies, but then there would be the catch all "yeah, but he's getting old and I know my dad has a hard time with that too" (this is a paraphase of what she actually said) justification.  I only saw him 'socially'.
Jeff L (a Geftakys LB) actually knew first hand of DG's abusive behaviour and covered it up 'for the sake of the work and the testimony'.

Notice that the LB (from Kristin's story) attempted a 'protect the testimony' tactic.  He told Kristin that she did not need to 'leave the work, go back to the Midwest, make a public confession'.  He asked why she thought people needed to know about it.

As 2 LBWs would say: Incredible!  So Amazing!

MM

[delila]

Marcia: I find this interesting - what Becky wrote and what you're seeking to digest about perspectives.  We could call this whole G soup a construct: G constructed an idea of spiritual.  He took himself as the prime example, and his wife and his kids and called the whole picture (or at least what was known of it) spritual, and we believed it.
He made an example of 'mainline' churchianity and called it worldly, and we swallowed.
He told us God wanted everything, no exceptions, no holding back, no boundaries, and we called it service, nothing grand, just what we owed the Lord (remember that one day and your courts is better than a thousand and worth the total cost of my health and mind etc)
But it was a cleverly constructed artifice and now we see through it.  But those who reaped the greater pay off from the construction project, refuse to be indicted.  Remember Enron?  is that what it was called?  And how many other bogus companies whose ceos suddenly dissapeared when all seams began to show on the shoddy construction?
We were duped and it's a wonder we all recognize now, but since we walked 'by faith' our duping still stuns us.  And the fact that we believe in justice and truth, well, that doesn't help us now though our leaders claimed to hold the torch of the testimony, called us to rally round the banner and etc - and where are they now?
Where is proud____ and his lovely wife____ who shook their heads at the unspiritual and ground our noses in our own short commings for so long?  Yes, where are they?
I believe they are trying to hide their shame now, trying to forget.  And in Ottawa, the most abusive of all Canadian assemblies, that has to be true.  Or am I too constructing, merely constructing?
delila

[M2]

Yes Delila, we swallowed the soup we were fed one spoonfull at a time until we really began to acquire a taste for it and spoon it out to others ourselves.

And those CEOs that suddenly disappeares when all the seams began to show on the shoddy construction - well...

The proud and lovely that remain under the guise of 'humility' and 'change' have become little Georges and Bettys (without GGs major sin issue).  George faithfully reproduced himself in these leaders that they have a very difficult time breaking free from him.  These leaders each had their 'training day' and came out adding 2 + 2 = 'preserve the testimony'.  Get the picture.

Yes, they are trying to forget, because it is too painful to remember.  But what's needed is repentance.  Becky can say, 'I was wrong in Omaha for not saying, loudly, "that is nuts that ..."', but "I was wrong" is not in the vocabulary of unrepentant leaders/assemblyites, and therein lies the difference.

Lord bless,
Marcia

[summer007]

Regarding Marcia and Delila's comments on 5/6/04. I really think we should remember we all left at different times and have different understandings and experiences...Some that have just left will take awhile to figure things out ..Be Patient I can hardly imagine the info overload if I had just left...I think Delila said she left 8 years ago ..Please correct me if I'm wrong..Marcia maybe a year ago...I myself 18 years ago..Thank-God I  was'nt there longer. I just kind of felt sorry for Marcia...."I had just been thinking the Heart has its Reasons the Mind knows nothing of " in a situation at home...and when I logged on there it was...

[delila]

I think I left a little over 10 years ago
but went back for a while (couple months tops) when my daughter was three
stu-pid
d