Why Leaders Are Responsible

[vernecarty]

Verne,

In reading your post, it dawned on me that you believe that GG was/is a "prophet".    Do you mean that GG was equivalent to the false prophets of OT times?  

 If so, I don't agree.  I know that GG claimed that the Holy Spirit was giving him illumination concerning the meaning of the scriptures.  Being a lousy expositor of the Bible and being a false prophet are not the same thing at all.

By such a definition of "prophet", one would have to believe that every preacher of the word who ever says anything about the Bible that is incorrect is a false prophet.  That, I suspect, includes just about all of them.

If you stop to think about it, just about all the brothers who fellowshipped in the GG assemblies got up on occassion and taught some erroneous ideas.  Are we ALL false prophets?

In the OT, a prophet gave out pronouncements that began "Thus says the Lord".   As messed up as GG was, I never heard him do that, or advocate it.   In fact, he ridiculed the idea of NT saints doing that.   At least during my tenure.

It seems to me that you need to define the term "false prophet" as you are using it.  

Regarding Matthew 7:15-17, what do you think "fruit" means.  If it means to sin, then I suspect that Verne and Tom are corrupt trees.  

Regarding evil being "systemic", I guess I need to ask you to define "system" and "systemic" as you are using them.  What is this system, and where is it to be found?

God bless,

Thomas Maddux.

I stand corrected Tom; I should have used the term false teacher...

 But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.
2 Peter 2:1

I will admit that I was somewhat tongue- in- cheek in my comment. George after all always insisted that his was a 'prophetic" ministry. You may find this kind of surprising but I believe there are some men with a semblance of that gift today - not in the classic sense of those producing the Scripture, but men able to speak a timely word to God's people regarding His purpose.  I met a few of these men at C & MA General Council this year and was absolutely taken aback by the remarkable insight of some of these men of God. Remember the adversaary always counterfeits the work of God. There will be an indivdual who will in the last days epitomise the religious representation of such a counterfiet - the false prophet. Can anyone deny the man George Geftakys had spiritual power? As I have aksed so often and will again - whence such energy?

Regarding evil being "systemic", I guess I need to ask you to define "system" and "systemic" as you are using them.  What is this system, and where is it to be found?

God bless,

From Elwell's theological dictionary:

Topics: World

Text:  In the OT 'eres, which is properly earth in contrast to heaven (Gen. 1:1), is occasionally rendered "world," but the more usual term is tebel, which signifies the planet as having topographical features, as habitable and fruitful (Pss. 19:4; 90:2). The NT words are oikoumene, denoting the populated world (Luke 4:5); aion, which is usually rendered age, but which occasionally combines with the concept of time that of space (Heb. 1:2; 11:3); and kosmos, which contains the thought of order or system. The latter word may denote the material world (Rom. 1:20) or even the totality of heaven and earth (Acts 17:24); the sphere of intelligent life (I Cor. 4:9); the place of human habitation (I Cor. 5:10); mankind as a whole (John 3:16); society as alienated from God and under the sway of Satan (I John 5:19); and the complex of ideas and ideals which govern men who belong to the world in this ethical sense (I John 2:15-17; James 4:4). (italics mine)

In the OT, a prophet gave out pronouncements that began "Thus says the Lord".   As messed up as GG was, I never heard him do that, or advocate it.   In fact, he ridiculed the idea of NT saints doing that.   At least during my tenure.

I remember one Midwest seminar Cecil Smith got up before the message to introduce George and said something to the effect that when George was speaking it was the Holy Spirit speaking to us. I distinctly remember inwardly cringing at the concept and loosing a little bit or respect for the man. I asked myself - "does he really believe that or is he just flattering George?"
Either way it just gave me the creeps...!

Regarding Matthew 7:15-17, what do you think "fruit" means.  If it means to sin, then I suspect that Verne and Tom are corrupt trees.

You may be right. I tend to think of "fruit" as the ultimate product of our lives as opposed to some kind of day to day assessment of our ups and downs. There is somehow a sense of finality about this description. If the "fruit" is bad, then the tree is unquestionably corrupt.
This really causes me to examine myself to see whether I am in the faith. We often run the danger of presumtion in our assessment of our own spiritual condition.
If the reference here is to sin, then I would have to agree with you that we are all corrupt trees. I do not think however that this is the point that the Lord Jesus was making. The tree and fruit reference came hard on the heels of His speaking about false prophets/teachers and seems to have specific reference to what these indivduals produce. It is most interesting to me that many who have been with George for the longest will tell you that the signs were all there even early on that something was not quite right...




Verne

[M2]

Marcia,

By "false religious system", do you mean their ideas?

If that is what you mean, Jesus interacted with the teachings, (ideas expressed in words), of the Pharisees many, many times.

God bless,
Thomas Maddux

'false religious system' - system of rules and regulation, dos and don'ts contrary to God's will.

The Lord's interaction with the ideas of the leaders was mostly to say 'woe to you...' or to correct them 'but I say unto you...' etc. etc.

Marcia

[editor]

Clearly, The Assembly was/is a system,  IF we define system as being the same as organization.

Did George and Betty systematically use the saints for their own gain?  I say yes.  Was this thier long-term plan from day one?  I don't think so, but as time went on, the Assembly was fashioned more and more to meet their needs, and those of their family.

Tom makes some excellent points, and his well thought out views are a welcome "moderating," influence.  However, Tom needs to remember that he wasn't present for the final decade in the Assembly.

Those of us who are recent leavers, like in the last 3 years, need to recognize that Tom, Steve and others have had more time to gain healthy perspectives on things.

I think that if we refer to the Assembly as a false religious organization, we may be more accurate in what we are saying.  This terminology allows for "normal, real" people to be trapped in the organization.  It also allows for changes to take place when the organizational structure is removed/ destroyed.

I think the problem Verne is trying to point out is that striving to maintain the organizational structure as something "precious," is simply error, regardless of intent.

Brent

[vernecarty]

Did George and Betty systematically use the saints for their own gain?  I say yes.  Was this their long-term plan from day one?  I don't think so,

It certainly may not have been George and Betty's plan from day one, but if you subscribe to the idea that evil in this world is indeed systemic, this does not mean it wasn't somebody's
plan!

I think the problem Verne is trying to point out is that striving to maintain the organizational structure as something "precious," is simply error, regardless of intent.

Brent

Also, whether wittingly or unwittingly, George became an instrument of wicked forces and was used to do terrible damage to God's people. I know this is hard for some of us to take but when it comes to spiritual matters such as these, there is no such thing as serendipity or fence-sitting...

He that is not with me is against me; and he that gathereth not with me scattereth abroad.
Matthew 12:30-31
 
This is the reason we should live our lives with volitional vigour...some ancient sage was onto something when he asserted that idle minds (and hands) were the devil's workshop...

It is a wonderful thing to realise that all of life can be lived as an expression of worship to Almighty God:


Worship is to quicken the conscience by the Holiness of God, feed the mind by the Truth of God, purge the imagination by the Beauty of God, open the heart to the Love of God, and devote the will to the Service of God.
William Temple

Did George and Betty systematically use the saints for their own gain?  I say yes.  Was this thier long-term plan from day one?

George knew his Bible as well as anyone. How is it possible knowing what he knew about himself and his ungodly conduct, that he could ever imgaine that God would honor anything he did? Don't we see that the only Biblical explanation for that entire episode is that George was either deliberate or deceived from the beginning and so were those of us who followed him?
Verne

[Tony]

Hello Tom,

   I've probably missed something here but I'll respond anyway...<g>

You said to Verne:
"Verne,

You said:
"Tom I find your perspective most thought provoking. It would seem to me
that the ultimate production of fruit constrains us to strict
determination of
the kind of tree (unless of course some spiritual grafting took place...
). Is it possible that inherent in your conclusions is the assumption,
seeming
Godly deportment notwithstanding, that you were able to perceive even
early on, GG's true nature, fig or thorn?
Remember the Lord cautioned us that it was only by their fruit, we would
know them...Oh for eyes to really see!
I do appreciate your insight Tom"
Verne

Verne it seems to me that you are misapplying a verse here.

It speaks of false prophets and bad fruit in Matt 7:15-20.

One of the things it says is that "A good tree cannot produce bad fruit,
nor can a rotten tree produce good fruit". Verse 18.

The contrast here is between saved and unsaved men, not between wise and
foolish, or spiritual vs carnal Christians.

One problem is verse 18.  GG has produced some good fruit!  Through his
ministry, many people confessed Christ and were saved.  To me, that is
good fruit.
 He also produced some rotten fruit. That doesn't fit verse 18 at all
because it speaks of an either/or situation.

So, I think the verse is being misapplied."

   Well, I have to disagree with you here.   First off because of what I see as a category error.   In verse 16, it is stated that "...you shall know them by their fruits..."    I believe the operative word in that verse  is "their."   This is where I find a category error, are we talking about the Fruits of the Holy Spirit or the fruits of a man and his ministry?   Are you saying that No one will ever be saved when they are in the presence of a false prophet?  Should someone's receiving Christ be directly linked to a fruit of a leader/teacher? I have heard it said that "whatever was good from George was not original and whatever was original, was not good!"  
    From reading the history of the ministry and listening to the accounts of many long time members, I have come to the conclusion that GG produced NO good fruits whatsoever.   Sure people got saved, and I don't doubt that some have produced good fruit,  but that is because of the Word and the simplicity of the Gospel message, and in that I rejoice as did Paul (PHI 1:18).
   As for GG's being saved or not...I cannot entertain that specific issue as it is not mine to judge that matter.

   As for the early days of GG, I haven't really seen anything that would lead me to believe that he had any more desire then, to teach and minister in the order of Paul, than he did in January 2003.
Ask yourself this:   Did the fruits of George Geftakys mirror the fruits of the Spirit?
love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, Meekness, temperance
(Gal 5:22-23)

    What I'm saying then is that any good fruits that have come out of persons who were involved in the Assemblies are in spite of GG and not a reflection of the fruits of the man.

    - A wolf in sheep's clothing will appear in many ways as another lamb.  
Just because there are wolves in the vicinity, does not mean that the Shepherd will not add to His flock.    He will eventually expose the wolf and gather the sheepp which the wolf has scattered abroad.  
   The bad fruits of the wolf are measureable but it would be ridiculous to think that the increase of the flock can be attributed to the wolf.


   One last thought.   as people got saved, as I believe they certainly did, I'm wondering if this should at all be measured as a fruit of a particular minister/teacher/prophet.

1 Corinthians 3:3  For ye are yet carnal: for whereas there is among you envying, and strife, and divisions, are ye not carnal, and walk as men?
4  For while one saith, I am of Paul; and another, I am of Apollos; are ye not carnal?
5  ¶Who then is Paul, and who is Apollos, but ministers by whom ye believed, even as the Lord gave to every man?
6  I have planted, Apollos watered; but God gave the increase.
7  So then neither is he that planteth any thing, neither he that watereth; but God that giveth the increase.



God Bless ya, Tony
Galatians 1:6  ¶I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel:
7  Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ.

[Mark Kisla]

[quote author=vernecarty

George knew his Bible as well as anyone. How is it possible knowing what he knew about himself and his ungodly conduct, that he could ever imgaine that God would honor anything he did? Don't we see that the only Biblical explanation for that entire episode is that George was either deliberate or deceived from the beginning and so were those of us who followed him?
Verne

My opinion; George is a Charlatan and I believe he suspected that all this would end the way it did. The man obviously wanted what being  what he was would give him; he pursued it. George did it on his own terms. I'm sure George  ignored and ran the stop signs God mercifully posted for him to see. George crashed. Those who saw the same signs and did'nt get off the bus George was driving, crashed with him.

[editor]

My opinion; George is a Charlatan and I believe he suspected that all this would end the way it did. The man obviously wanted what being  what he was would give him; he pursued it. George did it on his own terms. I'm sure George  ignored and ran the stop signs God mercifully posted for him to see. George crashed. Those who saw the same signs and did'nt get off the bus George was driving crashed with him.

In "Churches That Abuse,"  Enroth accurately quotes George as saying exactly this.

From page 232,  "He tells his followers that he believes that the vast majority will, "forsake him in the end," but that if only one or two remain loyal it will have been worth his effort.  In the end, "tremendous persecution" will inevitably be his lot.

My take on this?  George knew that someday his skeletons might come out of the closet again, as they did in times past.  I honestly think he was surprised he lasted as long as he did.

Brent

[Oscar]

All,

My attempts to show the definition of a "system" was in reply to Verne's claim that God had "cursed" GG's false religious system.

Here is another try at trying to clarify my point.

Let's take the SLO assembly.  It, if I don't miss my guess, consisted of 1. a rented building.  2. A group of people ascribing to and practicing certain ideas and beliefs.  3. Some bits and pieces of property, like chairs, hymnbooks, a few extra head coverings, a coffee maker or two and so on.

Now, the building is still there, but not in use by those people.  The people are still there, but don't believe or practice the peculiar assembly doctrines any more.  The property still exists, but is probably scattered around in various garages and homes. (if this does not describe SLO, it describes some other ex-GG assemblies).

Now, what did God curse?  The building?  The stuff?  The people?  Brent, are you cursed?

If God didn't curse any of those things, then what exactly DID he curse?  It doesn't seem to me that there is anything else to curse.  The people, I would say, were BLESSED, not cursed.  

The blessing was the entrance of greater light when they saw the truth about GG and his teachings and were set free.

All it took to dissolve the assembly, (ies) was some truth. That just shows the insubstantial nature of evil.  As Augustine said, evil has no being, it is just the absence of good. It is like light and darkness.  Light is a stream of photons, it has physical being.  Darkness is just the absence of photons.  It is nothing.

 I think it is fair to say that God is dealing with GG.  He is certainly reaping what he has sown.  

God bless,

Thomas Maddux

[d3z]

In "Churches That Abuse,"  Enroth accurately quotes George as saying exactly this.

From page 232,  "He tells his followers that he believes that the vast majority will, "forsake him in the end," but that if only one or two remain loyal it will have been worth his effort.  In the end, "tremendous persecution" will inevitably be his lot.

This isn't very positive in light of a possible repentance of GG.  If this quote is really true, then GG has set himself up for the very thing that has happened.  The excommunication and everything fits exactly with the great persecution, and only the one or two that remain loyal.  This seems too cleverly devised for a mere man to have just come up with; it is the kind of thing people write stories about--stories with people selling their souls to the devil.

[editor]

All,

My attempts to show the definition of a "system" was in reply to Verne's claim that God had "cursed" GG's false religious system.

Here is another try at trying to clarify my point.

Let's take the SLO assembly.  It, if I don't miss my guess, consisted of 1. a rented building.  2. A group of people ascribing to and practicing certain ideas and beliefs.  3. Some bits and pieces of property, like chairs, hymnbooks, a few extra head coverings, a coffee maker or two and so on.

Now, the building is still there, but not in use by those people.  The people are still there, but don't believe or practice the peculiar assembly doctrines any more.  The property still exists, but is probably scattered around in various garages and homes. (if this does not describe SLO, it describes some other ex-GG assemblies).

Now, what did God curse?  The building?  The stuff?  The people?  Brent, are you cursed?

If God didn't curse any of those things, then what exactly DID he curse?  It doesn't seem to me that there is anything else to curse.  The people, I would say, were BLESSED, not cursed.  

The blessing was the entrance of greater light when they saw the truth about GG and his teachings and were set free.

All it took to dissolve the assembly, (ies) was some truth. That just shows the insubstantial nature of evil.  As Augustine said, evil has no being, it is just the absence of good. It is like light and darkness.  Light is a stream of photons, it has physical being.  Darkness is just the absence of photons.  It is nothing.

 I think it is fair to say that God is dealing with GG.  He is certainly reaping what he has sown.  

God bless,

Thomas Maddux

Hi Tom,

I think your point is well taken.  However, the "system," or organization, had nothing to do with the stuff.  It had to do with the ideas and practices that we engaged in.  Some people were sincere, some were coerced, a few were corrupt.

Example:  The idea of The House of God.  In the Assembly, the House of God meant the Assembly meetings and its governement.  The idea was that God's purpose was always centered on His House.  We were His house, the Church down the street was not.  The LB's were His government.  The Church down the street was not----it's all in Testimony to Jesus.

The idea, which was erroneous, kept us all in bondage to attend all the meetings and obey the leaders---that is if we valued what God was doing.  This idea produced a behavior, the endless grind of meetings, workshops, seminars, etc.  It also produced an elitist attitude and spiritual pride, just like the Pharisees.

This is what I mean by the "system."  The card table that held the bread and wine wasn't cursed, neither was the rented room or the hymnbooks.  The bondage that came about by adherence to the doctrine and practice promulgated by GG is the "system."  That sort of behavior is wrong, and the fruit it produces is bad fruit.

In spite of the control, deception, immorality and financial wrong-doing,  God was still able to keep His own.  Yes, some people were saved through the Assembly, which is a testimony to God's goodness, not the Assembly's godliness.  (You know all this)

I think when Verne mentions the "cursed system," he is referring to Worker's Meetings, LB's lording it over the flock, the elitist attitude that comes about by applying the doctrine,  giving "the Work," pre-eminence over Christ, relating to George as The Lord's Servant, Brother's and Sister's houses, etc.    That stuff is bad!

The people?  The vast majority are God's precious lambs.  Certainly they aren't cursed, but as you say, blessed.

I think that the practices and doctrine that was unique to George must be examined and in most cases discarded.  Things need to be untwisted, clarified, forsaken, etc.  That which was good and right needs to be retained.

This has occured, to some extent.  No more workers, no more seminars, and a general agreement that George was "off."  However, there is much more that needs to be done, IMO.

To give you an example, when you type on the BB, "I'm sorry," because you thought that you were responsible for giving George a tract that led to one of his twisted doctrines,  that says a lot.  If some of the current Assembly leaders would do the same, clearly stating where they were wrong, and what they are doing differently, it would help tremendously.  The fact that they are reluctant to do so suggests that a big part of "The System," remains firmly entrenched.  I have called this the Code of Silence,  Steve calles it George's Abusive Methods.  We all learned these things, which are wrong.

Are we on the same page?

Brent

[vernecarty]

All,

My attempts to show the definition of a "system" was in reply to Verne's claim that God had "cursed" GG's false religious system.

Here is another try at trying to clarify my point.

Let's take the SLO assembly.  It, if I don't miss my guess, consisted of 1. a rented building.  2. A group of people ascribing to and practicing certain ideas and beliefs.  3. Some bits and pieces of property, like chairs, hymnbooks, a few extra head coverings, a coffee maker or two and so on.

Now, the building is still there, but not in use by those people.  The people are still there, but don't believe or practice the peculiar assembly doctrines any more.  The property still exists, but is probably scattered around in various garages and homes. (if this does not describe SLO, it describes some other ex-GG assemblies).

Now, what did God curse?  The building?  The stuff?  The people?  Brent, are you cursed?

If God didn't curse any of those things, then what exactly DID he curse?  It doesn't seem to me that there is anything else to curse.  The people, I would say, were BLESSED, not cursed.  

The blessing was the entrance of greater light when they saw the truth about GG and his teachings and were set free.

All it took to dissolve the assembly, (ies) was some truth. That just shows the insubstantial nature of evil.  As Augustine said, evil has no being, it is just the absence of good. It is like light and darkness.  Light is a stream of photons, it has physical being.  Darkness is just the absence of photons.  It is nothing.

 I think it is fair to say that God is dealing with GG.  He is certainly reaping what he has sown.  

God bless,

Thomas Maddux

Hi Tom,

I think your point is well taken.  However, the "system," or organization, had nothing to do with the stuff.  It had to do with the ideas and practices that we engaged in.  Some people were sincere, some were coerced, a few were corrupt.

Example:  The idea of The House of God. Brent

Tom, it seems to me that Brent is exactly right. Where does evil come from? It begins with wrong thinking beginninig with Lucifer who thought he would be like the Most High. It has nothing to do with stuff except "idea" stuff.

 And God saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.
Genesis 6:5  

[Oscar]

All,

My attempts to show the definition of a "system" was in reply to Verne's claim that God had "cursed" GG's false religious system.

Here is another try at trying to clarify my point.

Let's take the SLO assembly.  It, if I don't miss my guess, consisted of 1. a rented building.  2. A group of people ascribing to and practicing certain ideas and beliefs.  3. Some bits and pieces of property, like chairs, hymnbooks, a few extra head coverings, a coffee maker or two and so on.

Now, the building is still there, but not in use by those people.  The people are still there, but don't believe or practice the peculiar assembly doctrines any more.  The property still exists, but is probably scattered around in various garages and homes. (if this does not describe SLO, it describes some other ex-GG assemblies).

Now, what did God curse?  The building?  The stuff?  The people?  Brent, are you cursed?

If God didn't curse any of those things, then what exactly DID he curse?  It doesn't seem to me that there is anything else to curse.  The people, I would say, were BLESSED, not cursed.  

The blessing was the entrance of greater light when they saw the truth about GG and his teachings and were set free.

All it took to dissolve the assembly, (ies) was some truth. That just shows the insubstantial nature of evil.  As Augustine said, evil has no being, it is just the absence of good. It is like light and darkness.  Light is a stream of photons, it has physical being.  Darkness is just the absence of photons.  It is nothing.

 I think it is fair to say that God is dealing with GG.  He is certainly reaping what he has sown.  

God bless,

Thomas Maddux

Hi Tom,

I think your point is well taken.  However, the "system," or organization, had nothing to do with the stuff.  It had to do with the ideas and practices that we engaged in.  Some people were sincere, some were coerced, a few were corrupt.

Example:  The idea of The House of God. Brent

Tom Brent is exactly right. Where does evil come from? It begins with wrong thinking beginninig with Lucifer who thought he would be like the Most High. It has nothing to do with stuff except "idea" stuff.

 And God saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.
Genesis 6:5  

AAAAARRRRRRGGGGHHHH!!!!

This is exactly what I meant when I said that the "system" did not have objective existence as an entity in this world that God could curse.  All it was/is/has been was a cognitive construct in the minds of a group of people.  If God were going to curse it He would have to curse our minds.  

Therefore, I think that talking about GG's IDEAS as if they were an object that could receive cursing is incorrect.

Brent is correct in saying,

"Example:  The idea of The House of God.  In the Assembly, the House of God meant the Assembly meetings and its governement.  The idea was that God's purpose was always centered on His House.  We were His house, the Church down the street was not.  The LB's were His government.  The Church down the street was not----it's all in Testimony to Jesus.

The idea, which was erroneous, kept us all in bondage to attend all the meetings and obey the leaders---that is if we valued what God was doing.  This idea produced a behavior, the endless grind of meetings, workshops, seminars, etc.  It also produced an elitist attitude and spiritual pride, just like the Pharisees.

This is what I mean by the "system."  The card table that held the bread and wine wasn't cursed, neither was the rented room or the hymnbooks.  The bondage that came about by adherence to the doctrine and practice promulgated by GG is the "system."  That sort of behavior is wrong, and the fruit it produces is bad fruit."

Well, however God "put paid" to the GG assemblies, it is done, and GG is finished as far as founding a great movement.

"FREE AT LAST, FREE AT LAST, PRAISE GOD WE'RE FREE AT LAST"

God bless,

Thomas Maddux

[editor]

Ahhh...I get it now.  I just need to be beaten about the head with a blunt object a few times, then I start listening.

Thanks Tom.

Brent

[sfortescue]

Some examples of cursing things rather than people:

Gen. 3:17
And unto Adam he said, Because thou hast hearkened unto the voice of thy wife, and hast eaten of the tree, of which I commanded thee, saying, Thou shalt not eat of it: cursed is the ground for thy sake; in sorrow shalt thou eat of it all the days of thy life;

Gen. 49:5,7
Simeon and Levi are brethren; instruments of cruelty are in their habitations.  Cursed be their anger, for it was fierce; and their wrath, for it was cruel: I will divide them in Jacob, and scatter them in Israel.

Deut. 7:25-26
The graven images of their gods shall ye burn with fire: thou shalt not desire the silver or gold that is on them, nor take it unto thee, lest thou be snared therin: for it is an abomination to the LORD thy God.  Neither shalt thou bring an abomination into thine house, lest thou be a cursed thing like it: but thou shalt utterly detest it, and thou shalt utterly abhor it; for it is a cursed thing.

Mark 11:20-21
And in the morning, as they passed by, they saw the fig tree dried up from the roots.  And Peter calling to remembrance saith unto him, Master, behold, the fig tree which thou cursedst is withered away.


Bad ideas can be likened to computer viruses that infect the brain and cause malfunctions of thinking, so be careful about what you accept as true and keep your list of known bad ideas up to date.

[vernecarty]

Some examples of cursing things rather than people:

Gen. 3:17
And unto Adam he said, Because thou hast hearkened unto the voice of thy wife, and hast eaten of the tree, of which I commanded thee, saying, Thou shalt not eat of it: cursed is the ground for thy sake; in sorrow shalt thou eat of it all the days of thy life;

Gen. 49:5,7
Simeon and Levi are brethren; instruments of cruelty are in their habitations.  Cursed be their anger, for it was fierce; and their wrath, for it was cruel: I will divide them in Jacob, and scatter them in Israel.

Deut. 7:25-26
The graven images of their gods shall ye burn with fire: thou shalt not desire the silver or gold that is on them, nor take it unto thee, lest thou be snared therin: for it is an abomination to the LORD thy God.  Neither shalt thou bring an abomination into thine house, lest thou be a cursed thing like it: but thou shalt utterly detest it, and thou shalt utterly abhor it; for it is a cursed thing.

Mark 11:20-21
And in the morning, as they passed by, they saw the fig tree dried up from the roots.  And Peter calling to remembrance saith unto him, Master, behold, the fig tree which thou cursedst is withered away.


Bad ideas can be likened to computer viruses that infect the brain and cause malfunctions of thinking, so be careful about what you accept as true and keep your list of known bad ideas up to date.

Steve is pointing out a very important principle. In the same vein is God's observation regarding the conduct of the Canaanites:

  Yea, they sacrificed their sons and their daughters unto devils,
 38.  And shed innocent blood, even the blood of their sons and of their daughters, whom they sacrificed unto the idols of Canaan: and the land was polluted with blood.


J. Vernon McGee once said that if God did not judge America he owed Sodom and Gomorrah and apology. Does any one think it is anything but a matter of time before the steps of the Almighty move, even though so reluctantly, to judgement of this nation for its gross sin? We ought to have known better. To whom much is given, much is required. Let no man, (or woman) deceive you on this point dear friends.
Verne