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                        A Brief Word About the WORD:
 
    Someone very dear to me is studying to become a minister in the "church" of Religious Science, which teaches that whatever you may choose to believe is the truth as far as you are concerned.  Religious Science (among other "faiths") views the Bible as a collection of spiritual tales, parables and axioms that mean different things to different people.  For example, verses regarding the kingdom of God may be quoted as references for "believing" one's way to material wealth, attaining a higher level of spiritual insight or any number of other applications.
    The arguments against recognizing the Bible as the infallible Word of God are legion:  The texts were all written by men, events such as the creation and the flood aren't scientifically plausible, the earliest known manuscripts do not date back to the events they record, the teachings were politically motivated;  not to mention how many preachers, priests and officers of scripture-quoting churches have been convicted of crimes and how many over-the-top cults supposedly base(d) their doctrines on the Bible.
    As Christians, we often find ourselves taunted with such dicussion, and the temptation to answer such claims with counter-debate can be nearly overwhelming.  A few months ago this bulletin board hosted a hearty discussion about whether anti-Bible claims should be addressed as a means of opening opposing intellects to the claims of the Scriptures, or simply ignored in deference to the pure and simple preaching of the Gospel.
 
    Our cue in such matters is given by the Bible itself, which makes no attempt to defend, justify or even explain itself to the world (that portion of mankind which does not know or acknowledge the living God).  But to the redeemed of the Lord is stated "...a natural (or unspiritual) man does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually appraised (examined).  But he who is spiritual appraises all things..." 1Cor.2:14-15.  What lifts a soul from the natural state to the spiritual is the new birth.  "...unless one is born again (or from above) he cannot see the kingdom of God.  ...That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit." Jn.3:3,6.    So the pro-Scripture explanations which seem so clear to us are wasted upon the unregenerate.

    The judgment against men is not that they reject the explanation of the Bible's accuracy, but that they reject the testimony to Jesus Christ, the Living Word of God (Jn.3:19-21).  Jesus is the Light of the world, shining in the face of its darkness, and mankind may avail itself of the Light, or not (Mt.6:22-23).  Paul assures us that we received the Spirit of God by "the hearing of faith" Gal.3:2(marg.), which "comes ...by the word of Christ" Rom.10:17.  The eyes and ears of our souls are opened by the Word of God, not by facts regarding the background of the Bible.  All of the wonderful information about the latter cannot penetrate the spiritual darkness to redeem a soul, but must be held in reserve for the encouragement of the saints.

    Concerning those who would disparage the authenticity of the Scriptures, we are admonished to "Preach the Word," not teach about it.  If we are mocked for our simplistic insistence, let us take heart from Paul's words in 1Cor.1:17-2:16, wherein he instructs that he preached the Gospel "not in cleverness of speech, so that the cross of Christ would not be made void."(1:17)  He quotes (1:19) from Isaiah 29 God's promise to "destroy the wisdom of the wise," and to set aside "the cleverness of the clever."  "Has not God made foolish the wisdom of the world?" he asks, "For since in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom did not come to know God, God was well pleased through the foolishness of the message preached to save those who believe." (1:20-21)
    "We preach Christ crucified," Paul says, declaring the message to be "to those who are the called, ...the power of God and the wisdom of God," while being a stumbling block and foolishness to others. (1:23-24)    And this, he attests, is "because the foolishness of God is wiser than men, and the weakness of God is stronger than men." (1:25)

    God has chosen to make our message to appear foolish and weak to the world in order to shame the wise and the strong, so that the wisdom and strength of the world cannot boast before Him (1:26-31, 2:2).  Let us then preach Christ crucified to the lost and to the young in faith as did Paul, "not with superiority of speech or of wisdom," and "not in persuasive words of wisdom," that their faith will not "rest on the wisdom of men, but on the power of God."(2:1,4-5)  

al Hartman     (All Scripture references are from the updated NASB)


   

Al:

While I agree with most of what you say, I have a very different view of what "preaching" is now after having left the assembly.  

Most non-christians will tell you that bible belting, reciting the scriptures, arguing points with this scripture reference and that scripture reference to wow the listener at what a great student of the word we are (wasn't that what we did in the assembly) rarely wins your listener.  In fact, most are irritated and your intent is lost in it's application.  However, LIVING the bible before men/women is a much more ardous task (not really, if you are simply resting in your saviour!)   I believe this is what Christ did when he won the masses.  He didn't 'PREACH' to the wounded, lost and weary.....his was a life of action.  In fact, most of his preaching was reserved for the Pharisee.........HMMMMMMMM........interesting.  It is the Pharisee who needs to have Christ speak to him regarding the scripture, not the other way around.  

I no longer ram scripture down others throats.  I live my life before them. A much more winning way.....and I believe the example our Lord gave us.

Food for thought!

Hi Kimberly,

     ...food for thought, indeed, and thanks for bringing up this point.  Many of us certainly did ram the Bible and our opinions down people's throats while in the assembly.  As often as not, I for one was "WOWing" myself, if not my listener (victim), with my "wisdom."  This in no way detracts from all the sincere witnessing that was done by assembly saints over the years.

     Genuine preaching is a scriptural reality in both the old and new testaments.  Please, anyone who is concerned about this topic, get a Bible concordance and look up the words preach, preached, preacher, etc., and see the many references.
     Jesus preached to the poor and to the multitudes.  
     He sent His disciples forth to preach.  
     Paul said woe unto him if he didn't preach the gospel.  
     He instructed Timothy to preach the Word.  
     The apostles preached Christ "every day," even (especially)
          after being flogged for doing so.

     I fully agree with Kimberly that preaching is not an end in itself, and that browbeating is not the tactic of choice for bearing witness to the lost.  If the terminology we heard and spoke in the assembly has left a bad taste, we must remember that much was distorted there, and that the misuse of words and terms must not negate their proper use.  As we have moved from the assembly pattern into more "normal" churches, our concepts of grace, worship, commitment, ministry, walking with the Lord, and many other ph(r)ases of Christianity have needed adjustment and clarification.  Preaching is just another on the list.

    True preaching is a positive element of God's working.

     For clarity's sake, my use of "preach" in my previous post is interchangeable with tell, speak, witness, etc., and does not suggest being loud or obnoxious.  The focus of my thoughts is on the state of the hearer's heart, which is infinitely more susceptible to prayerful simplicity than to "learned" argumentation.  Let there be no doubt that the most powerful testimony of Christ in our lives is His life expressed in our everyday doings.  But even if we never stand up and hold forth at length, we must be ever alert to answer the earnest question "What must I do to be saved?"  This, too, is the preaching of the Gospel.

     After telling Timothy to "Preach the Word," Paul instructed him to "be ready in season and out of season..."  Roughly paraphrased:  Be prepared to be prepared even when you aren't prepared.

God bless, and Happy New Year,
al

I had a quick question. I read all three Bulletin Boards (dealing witht he Assembly) daily. Today I read a thread on the SWTE BB that dealt with conscience and self-condemnation, and putting the blame on others for our problems. There was a statement made which I quote:

"..the monster turns on me and I am under my own condemnation. The conscience is difficult to control once it is unleashed to decide who should go to the gallows and who shouldn't. Haman, as a type of the human conscience ended up receiving his own sentence of death."

My question is the interpretation concerning Haman. How does one come to the conclusion that Haman is a "type of the conscience"? Is there anything in the Bible that leads us to make this interpretation regarding him? Do we not interpret the Bible by the Bible? I ask this because this is exactly the type of thing that we all "accepted" while in Assembly. An interpretation was made on something by George or another and it was "fed to us". Many of us would question certain interpretations, but it was frowned upon to question anything George said. A blanket statement was made like: "Haman is a type of the conscience" and many accepted it, without asking where that interpretation even came from.

And I feel this is very important. The Bible itself says that the Word is not of any private interpretation, but can be understood by all. Like the Noble Bereans, we should ask immediatley, "is that scriptural"? Most of us failed to do that while in the Assembly, accepting the interpretation of men rather than the true interpretation of God. Like a weight scale, interpretation should be both spiritual and intelligent. That is why Hermeneutics is so important. A balanced, even, interpretation of the Bible is extremely important. When someone makes a statement like: "Haman is a type of the human conscience" we should ask "How do you come to that conclusion?" Most likely we'll get the answer "The Lord showed me it is", rather than an intelligent, balanced interpretation that clearly shows that that is the meaning.

I asked the question at the beginning because maybe someone has heard that interpretation of Haman before. Is it an "accepted" interpretation made by many, or an Assembly interpretation made by a man? Just curious what you think.


---Joe

And the "question" would be?????????????

Kimberly---

Sorry----I hit post by mistake before I was finished. :D

--Joe

Well,

I haven't ever heard this interpretation before.  I studied the book of Esther under a great Bible preacher, George Geftakys, and he never mentioned it.  

I have never heard of anyone else ever having this interpretation either.  However, if we read the scriptures in the spirit, and interpret them with the understanding of faith, and our spirit regisiters with His Spirit, that we our hearts are being prompted by the Divine Teacher, than I see no problem with this interpretation.... ::)

In the book of Esther, Mordecai is a type of a doubting believer, who overcomes doubt by choosing against himself.

Esther is a type of God's Grace removing the sin of an immoral woman, who despite her propensity to sin, has a heart for the things of God.  Man looks on the outward appearance, but God, and only God, looks at the heart.  God knew Esthers heart, which is why we should never judge anyone!  (Unless we don't like them.)

Our judgement is based on words and deeds, the outward man.  God's judgement isn't based on words or deeds, but on the hidden motives of the heart.  Ignore verses that say things like God judges our works, or the words we speak.  They can't be properly understood by the natural man.  When God has judged something, and we are in union with Him in the Spirit, only then can we judge with righteous judgement, which is based in faith, not in sight.  As long as we abide in the soulish twilight of the natural man, we cannot judge correctly.

Haman, as a type of the human conscience, was abiding in self.  He was wrong about the Jews, but everyone judged he was correct.  (Natural man judgement)  However, God knew his motives were selfish, and Mordecai, the doubting believer, made at least one good choice at this time.  God can use the weakest among us to accomplish his purpose....unless we are abiding in self.  George Geftakys was used by God, in spite of the outward appearance of things, because only God knows his heart....we do not, except in the inward man, by faith.

Haman was hung on his own gallows, as a type of the human conscience being put to death on the cross.  This is what needs to happen in each of us, if we are going to pass from soulish, natural, finite life, into spiritual life.

I really think this interpretation has "wings."

Can I preach it or what?   ;)

Could you repeat that...??!!  ;D ;D ;D
Verne

Thanks for that expository gem Brent ;) I think ;D

--Joe

sure Joe, anytime.

However, I assumed that you were not serious in wanting an to know if that interpretation was correct.  If you were sincerely asking the question, I apologize for getting sarcastic about it.

In all sincerity, there is absolutely no basis for making the statement that Haman is a type of the human conscience.  None, absolutely no possible way to back that up.

We could, or course, draw the obvious parrallels between Haman and other wicked, ambitious people who have been consumed with hatred for the Jews throughout history.  In this sense, Haman is a "type," of Satan.  However, typology goes too far, most of the time.  Haman is an historical figure, who died on his own gallows, meant for the Mordecai, I believe.

Satan is going to be cast alive into the Lake of Fire, which he did not make, which was not made for the Jews, but made especially for him.  The typology does not hold up, except insofar as they both hated Jews in an illogical way, which resulted in their ultimate demise.

Haman could be a type of foolish master builder, I suppose, but I have never heard of such a thing.

Personally, I think it is unwise to view everything as a type of everything else.  Scripture frequently has plain meaning, and far less frequently has hidden, allegorical meaning.  Tom Maddux said something that was quite enlightening a while ago I shall attempt to repeat it:

The PB like to talk about mustard trees, and birds that nest in them.  In their thinking, the mustard tree is a "type" of christendom, which has grown into something it was never intended to be.  (Mustard should be a small shrub, not a tree)  OK...interesting point, perhaps.

The reason the Mustard Tree is so bad (modern Christendom) is because the birds of the air nest in its branches.  The birds are a "type" of demons.  Why?  Because in the parable of the sower and the seed Jesus interprets them as such.

That's the key, Jesus interpreted his own parable, but he didn't tell us the interpretation of the birds in the Mustard tree.  I guess it's OK to run with it though.  Let's stick with the analogy for this passage:

Psalm 84:1  How lovely is your dwelling place,  O LORD Almighty!  2  My soul yearns, even faints,  for the courts of the LORD;  my heart and my flesh cry out  for the living God.  3  Even the  sparrow  has found a home,  and the swallow a nest for herself,  where she may have her young--  a place near your altar,  O LORD Almighty, my King and my God.  4  Blessed are those who dwell in your house;  they are ever praising you. Selah

In keeping with the idea that we "interpret scripture with scripture, and that the Old Testament is the New Testament concealed," we must rejoice with David (a type of Christ) that the "blessed" demons have a place in God's house, where they can raise their young!  Perhaps we should reconsider this before adopting such an idea.

Ah...but that's the Old Testament.  Let's talk apples to apples:

Matt 6:26  "Look at the birds of the air, for they neither sow nor reap nor gather into barns; yet your heavenly Father feeds them. Are you not of more value than they?

Here, if we stick to our typology of birds being demons, we must conclude that God feeds and cares for demons!  (same word in Greek as in the Mustard Tree parable.)

The point is that we must be careful when assigning typology to everything.  I do not think the PB are totally out to lunch with their interpretation, but it is quite easy to go too far.  In the case of Haman, way too far.  

Please instruct me if I am wrong.

Brent

Brent----

Thanks for your post. I must say that I asked that question knowing the answer to it. But I thought it brought up an important issue, and showed what a lot of us bought into a lot of the time in the Assembly.

Without properly interpreting the Bible, and using "types" without using discretion, great damage can be done. Though my question was asked seriously, it was asked to provoke thought. But I must say I truly appreciated your sarcastic and very funny take on it. You are a master of Biblical Exposition using the Assembly mindset---you understand it expertly and always send me into a fit of the giggles when you use it.  thanks.


---Joe

I think Brent is right in suggesting that Haman is a type of our great adversary Satan. Old testament anti-Semetism had a very simple objective - destruction of the Saviour's lineage by destruction of God's chosen people. The objective is the same today...
Verne

Joe,

GG had to believe in this method of reading the Bible.  The entire PB church system is built on a foundation of such interpretations.

If GG hadn't accepted this, his whole ministry would have dissolved.

Too bad it didn't.

Tom

By the way,

Some of you will remember a discussion about "Big Tree Churches" several months ago.  Back in the days when John Malone senior, of fond memory, was whispering his sweet nothings to any and all.

He condemned me and others for going to Big Tree Churches.  In fact, this idea comes from exactly what Joe was speaking of...."the mustard plant grows into a big tree, something unnatural, and represents the corrupt religious system.  The fowls of the air represent the teaching demons that dwell in the corrupt religious system..."

This is exactly the same kind of nonsense.  What he, and others I have heard teach this, fail to do is to show why this is true.  Lacking clear Biblical statments the best anyone can do is to make a plausible case.  However, I don't even consider this idea plausible.

Thomas Maddux
Gas Bag First Class

Verne,

When I took hermeneutics at Talbot they were teaching that in order for an OT person to qualify as a type, it must be so stated elsewhere in the Bible.

On this basis, they would say that Haman was carrying out Satan's program, just as Pharoah had earlier.  However, he wouldn't qualify as a genuine type.

Interestingly, Haman was an Amelekite.  God told Saul to exterminate them, and now here they were in Babylon after the Persian takeover still pursuing Satan's program for Israel.  "Obedience is better than sacrifice...".

Tom

I have found by reading the postings on this topic that these are the 7 fundamentals of belief that one must adhere to when discerning when God has “actually” spoken.

1.God does not communicate via His Spirit to the human spirit. Well, maybe on some occasions but if so we will question and have a logical reason for what He said. - biblically backed by chapter and verse.

2.If one believes they heard from God and others do not agree with what that “one” heard- --then he did not hear from God.  Exceptions being: Noah, Moses, Elijah, all the prophets, and  at least one apostle [paul- (you know the lucky guess on the gentile thing ) you don’t really believe he saw the whole clean and un-clean animal lay-out???]

--Previous statement meaning that all revelations (unless written in The King James Version of The Holy Bible) must be tested by general populace consensus. And no, it doesn’t matter if it makes sense spiritually-     
3.God is not doing a new thing. At least He is not saying a new thing. At least He is not saying anything He hasn’t said before. And if He were it would sound a lot like what He has said in the past only…
            
            NO. It would be exactly like He said it before.                      
And you probably wouldn’t hear it.

4.God has not spoken in parables except for those instances specifically where He said, “ Hey you guys I’m speaking in a parable here” And in the situations He said that that was because they were really tricky parables… You know the whole “must be born again thing”  (Of course we all knew that had to be a parable)  ::)  That Jesus- always beating around the bush. Just say exactly what you mean, Jesus. We don’t have the time nor inclination to meditate and discern spiritual meaning. Thank you.

5. There is no fresh word from God. (see number 3) We cannot state this enough. I got news for ya if you didn’t hear it at seminary, and/or  it is not ,stated clearly, in a verse - then it didn’t come from Him. Got it?

6.We accept the verse that your daughters will prophesy ( Joel 2:28). Of course this only applies in situations that
A) we have heard the word spoken before
B) We wish we were hearing that word spoken or
C) God gives a person a vision and revelation that expands on current knowledge of Him as provided through the Bible, and various spiritual pioneers of the faith

Wait..

  * Correction * Eliminate - C

7. With God all things are Possible!    
Except for those things which are listed above- they are of course possible in the slimmest meaning of the word but, keep in mind they are highly improbable and to experience such would be a MiRacLe !



----In conclusion- No new “prophetic”  words, or “revelations”
Unless we agree (and that means all of us) -- and we don’t.-----
Final answer.

I didn’t just come from the Assembly in fact I hardly remember being a part of it. But  sometimes I am amazed to read the posts of some people. (I’m not talking about everyone on this board) People  that come directly from a fellowship that  hoarded, controlled, and  biblically bruised them spiritually. I find it really interesting to hear these same people declare what is “sound” scriptural teaching when most of them have only recently collected enough spiritual consciousness/stamina to swim away from an already sinking ship. I know this does not apply to everyone. But, I find the number of “spiritual giants“, that until most recently have not had the spiritual discernment or  tenderness of ear to hear God pertaining GG ministry (previous to the fall), to be quite confident now in their abilities of declaring what is and isn’t of God.

Dear Sarahhoffee,

(Is your name Sarah Hoffee?)

You have now informed us, in very general terms, what you disagree with.

However, I have  a couple of questions regarding your comments.

1. How does one know when God is "communicating via His Spirit to the human spirit"?
2. Where does the Bible teach that Christians should expect to "hear from God"?
3. How does one know when God is "doing a new thing"?
4. What do you think a parable is?
5. Just how does one know one is hearing a "fresh word from God"?
6. Who is the verse from Acts 2 about "Your daughters shall prophesy" addressed to?
7. How many miracles do you see in an average day?

It is quite one thing to believe that you hear directly from God on a regular basis.  Many people who have murdered others have claimed that God told them to do it.

The big question is how can anyone else know that you have "heard from God".  

Thomas Maddux

Sarah,

Clever post. You are obviously very intelligent. Your style reminds me of Brent’s. Unfortunately, your premise is flawed, therefore . . .

What you have done is taken the differing opinions of several different posters and tried to make the argument that they represent the unified doctrine of the bulletin board and that doctrine contradicts itself and therefore does not hold water.

Nice try. Since the posts represent varied opinions, it’s quite easy to pick them apart and point out the contrasts, then make the statement that the writers are full of malarkey since they contradict each other.

Problem is, there is no unified doctrine on the board. It is an open forum populated by numerous opinions and doctrines. Verne does not always agree Brent, who is not always in agreement with Al, who holds a different view than Dave who doesn’t share the opinion of Tom who thinks they’re all a little skewed!

Cute post. Doesn’t stand up really well, though.

Also, the vast majority of posters who offer up opinions on hermeneutics, word studies, types, etc. on this board are people who escaped the Assembly in the mid 80’s and have made a diligent effort to seek the truth.

Of course, that doesn't make them right about everything (or anything), but they certainly don't fit your description of the recently enlightened, yet still clueless Assembly escapee.

Perhaps your post would have been more helpful if you had tried to explain your beliefs about how God speaks, and included some supporting facts.

Maybe next time?

Scott

I hope you don't mean that to hear from God we all have to agree. That was a leading brother thing in Ottawa. We had the mind of God because we all agree. Nonsense: What God shows me in my walk may not be what He shows you for your life. Some things are universal but one size does not always fit all. Just quote from someone and state your difference with their view. If you are open to a proper rebuttal then we can see if you have a valid point or not. The Assembly taught us a lot of scripture and sometimes we held different views albeit to ourselves if we were smart. Now after seeing the error of the Assembly spin we see that often we were right all along. In the Assembly we always had to be right and shoot down all others who disagree. I hope we all have learned that the final word has not been said and we all have a lot to learn. By discussing we learn by closing the discussion we go back to the same old problems that started the whole thing. I would like to see your rebuttal to specifics it could prove enlightening for all

Hugh

Sarah,  Your amazement may stem from  the fact that you hardly remember your involvement.....while you are clanging your Gong ....Many are hearing The Sound of Abundance of Rain ...You mentioned in an earlier post that this was like a Warzone....Hello ....Have you ever read eph 6 we  are in a battle ..thats why we put on the Whole Armer of God...To War a good Warfare...I myself  refuse to support False Teachers...I realize your sympathtic to your Aunts site...and probibly feel your operating in Christian Love...Since you hardly remember anything WHY?? are you trying to teach others????

Thank you, Sarah, for your post. It stimulated some questions I've had re: how God speaks to us. Does anyone remember the book called "Vanya". I don't know if there was more to the title or not. The story was of a Russian young man who stood for Christ in the 70's and was eventually killed for it. In it, Vanya experiences several mystical events involving hovering angels, bread flying out of a locked truck, and being transported to another place (heaven?) for a brief time. I read this book before my assembly days and again during that time. I was profoundly affected by it. Vanya seemed so humble and wondered why he had been chosen for these visitations, etc, when he was merely living his life as any other Christian would.

My question is - do you think this stuff really happens? Yes? No? Sometimes? How would we recognize these sometimes? What do you base your answer on?

There is a man at my church who says one day God told him he was to move to the west coast. God further told him he would meet a man that day which would be from the town he should move to. That same day this man attended a conference where our pastor spoke. Later our pastor came up to this man to compliment him on his music (he is unbelievably good), and when the man found out where our pastor was from he said, "That is where God wants me to move." When I heard this story I cringed. My first thoughts were "This is what I get for being in a foursquare church." Then I didn't know, maybe I was the one who was all washed up.

Another story. A woman I met through homeschool circles is a devout Catholic and believer in Medjugorje (the visitation of Mary, the mother of God, in Poland, who comes with the message of peace on earth). She is friendly, hospitable, caring, talks about loving the Lord and loves to tell miraculous stories of healing, etc that are a direct result of Medjugorje. We've spent a little time together due to h.s. events but everytime she brings the Mary stuff up I freak out inside. My personal belief is that she is dead wrong and that demons can immitate goodness if it serves their purposes. She would say this is one way that God "speaks" to us.

Does anyone really know what the heck they are talking about?

I would appreciate other people's thoughts on this.

Karey

No, none of us really "know."  We all have limited, weak intellect, if we compare what we are able to understand with all that is able to be understood.  However, there are a number of things, simple things, that we agree on.  The person of Christ being one of them.

The simple reality is that each of us must be fully convinced in our own minds about what we believe.

Check my signature!

However, years of studying the Bible, even under a false system, like watchtower, can yield benefit when we meet Jesus.  His Word accomplishes His purpose.

As for Sarah's point about us acting like we are "spiritual giants," when in fact some of us are only recently out of Geftakysism (four years for me) is a point well taken!  This is an excellent point, which is why it is so important for Assembly folk to get out of The Assembly and go to a healthy church!  

If someone is using this BB as their teacher/pastor/source of fellowship, they need to stop!  That isn't what this is all about.

Please read everything here with a noble, Berean-like spirit.

Brent

Karey,

I agree with Brent in that no one knows all the answers.

Here is what I have considered in light of a situation like Vajna's:

Does God make a habit out of using miracles to bail people out of trouble? Probably not. Does he speak in visions on a daily basis to every other Christian on Earth? Probably not.

In situations of extreme persecution and duress is He able and willing to step in and deliver for his His purposes. Yes.

A popular line of thought states that God granted the apostolic gifts (tongues, healing, etc) as a tool to spread the gospel due to a lack of written scripture, etc.

Once there was ample written doctrine and testimony, the gifts were suspended.

It seems to follow then, that God can still use miracles to spread his word, rescue his people, etc. whenever he sees fit. But he probably doesn't see fit as much as people would like to think!

Humble offering from a spiritual dwarf who has not sat under Assembly teachings for 18 years!

S

He that has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the Churches...Rev....And ....in IKings A still small Voice....Gods word will not return Void....Romans 10 So then FAITH comes by HEARING and Hearing by the WORD of GOD............p.s....I read Vanya  in '80 or '81 very good book!!!!

Brent's observations explain a lot. Most of us are here to engage in lively, amicable exchange with an open mind, as well as a willingness to learn from one another. People suffering from delusions of grandeur and sporting a hidden agenda, presuming themselves to be wise and spiritually superior to those on the forum of course will have no choice but to go start their own. It ought to tell you something if you cannot endure the society of other adults as varied as represented here. There is hardly a person on this forum who has not in some fashion displayed their vulnerability and human frailty. We know who we are thank-you-very-much.
The self-righteous and self-serving diatribe against Scott by she-that-must-not-be-named shows the remarkable ability of minds corrupted by George and Betty Geftakys to strain at a gnat and swallow a camel.
Scott's use of vulgar language to describe a vulgar man is studied as it is clearly not the only thing he has ever posted. I once employed Nixon's jawbone- of- an- ass reference and was forever after dubbed as a man of foul and fatuous speech.  The apostle Paul sometimes did the same.  How could a person be so incredibly dense as to take issue with that narrative yet fail to grasp the central issue: why it was that only a nine year old boy was able to discern and willing to assert that George Geftakys was a godless and contemptible thug, rotten to the core? (granted of course I would have found some way other than "the finger" to publish that fact!). The vulgarity of his discription is entirely appropriate to the nature of what was going on if you please- a scathing indictment of those who tolerated it.
The answer is of course that they all knew it, just did not have the cojones to say it! (I am sure she will lecture me for that one).
The wholesale impugning of motives and the sanctimonious finger-wagging is truly tiresome, to say nothing of hypocritical considering its source. Have you read Delila's story?
If you do not like what is being said here and have no interest in participating, simply find society elsehwere and leave us alone. Do you see anyone here accusing you of being a trollop for some of that tripe you are dispensing? No you do not, now do you?
Even an intellectual giant like Hugo Dyson had to endure Lewis' harsh assessment of his initial Inklings offerings as  "a raging cataract of nonsense". The inability of some to accept criticism from others obviously better instructed, "raging cataract" notwithstanding, is a sure sign that the "leave em alone" principle applies. I admire Tom Maddux for being the only one to apply it consistently. Back to igging 'em.
Verne
p.s it is kinda hard to resist some of the more hilarious renderings though, like Brent's recent exegesis...all in good fun of course!  :)
Verne

Well, uh, thanks. Didn't mean to get anyone's dander up. I am well acquainted with the view Scott mentioned and, in fact, agree with it. I was curious what someone who'd been in an assembly-like place would think about these things, thus the question.

I suppose I was also prompted by the various opinions that one hears all over the place. (Not just on this BB, but everywhere you go.) There seems to be a lack of many things in the world, but opinions aren't one of them. For instance, I remember buying cereal as a kid and there were only a few choices compared to today where a store needs an entire isle to display the options. In my small childhood world there were equally only a few choices of opinion compared to today. Being in the assembly re-created a "safe" place of black and white limited options.  Unfortunately, that so-called safe place tended to shrivel the brain.

I enjoy the lively discussions. It gives me a chance to get the cobwebs out and hear how other people think. I am fascinated by what people think. Why do they think the way they do? What has brought them to this opinion? What are the chances they will change their opinion over time? What makes them tick???

If I sometimes succumb to indecision and confusion it's ok (this happens at church, mostly, but not as often as it use to). I forgive myself.  ;) Only once in a great, great while, though.  Can't have people thinking I don't know everything!!!  ;D

Karey

I can't go on the SWTE site at all!  It gets my blood pressure up, just as communicating with the likes of any assembly minded people (who refuse to give up their brain washed teaching) does.

The reason I like dialoguing in this forum is, I won't be jumped all over with scripture references as to why I need to change my way of thinking or behavior.  We are able to swap stories, put forth theories, a true "Forum".  We don't always agree with one another and at times enjoy having "sport" (in good fun ;D) with one another.  BUT...........and here's the big BUT...........we let one another express ourselves.  It is those who come here trying to "control" our thoughts and behaviors that we take exception to.  We all know who the likes of these individuals are without having to name names.

TKarey........you are not one of them.  I'm glad Verne cleared that up.  We have enjoyed your stories and contribution.  

So there you have it! Nothing has changed. ::)

Scott

Here's one for you. My parents would be mortified if they knew I was telling this story but it's too good of an illustration. They'll forgive me (they have to, I have their grandkids!).

My parents were considering buying a house during their Assembly heyday. Of course they were agonizing over the decision, poring over scripture, trying to find a "promise", trying to find out what God's will was for the home purchase.

The seller's last name was Stoops. One day, they were travelling down the highway, discussing the situation and decided to offer a quick prayer on the matter. About the time they said Amen, a truck cut into their lane and the back of the trailer said STOOPS TRUCKING.

So they bought the house.  ::)

BTW, Stoops Trucking was a fairly large outfit in the Midwest. I tended to notice them on the road about every day after that.

A question, similar to Karey's:

I have known many truly saved, Christ-loving Pentecostals and Assembly of God members. On Wednesday nights when they speak in tongues, what is that?

I mean, do they make it up? You'd think someone would have stood up by now and said, "Hey, you know you're all making this up!" and blown the lid off the whole thing.

Are they in a moment of emotional ecstacy and so carried away, they babble? Then why does some guy claim to know what is being said? Is he a straight-up liar on Wednesday nights? Or does he hear something? From who?

Are they actually speaking a hidden language and thus a conduit for an evil spirit? If so, how can they be so Satanically influenced but are still able to continue the rest of their lives happily witnessing for Christ, etc.

What's the deal?

S

Oops, my mistake.  ::) Thanks, guys (and Kimberley), for clearing that up. I no longer go to the SWTE site either. When I began going over there I came away confused and discouraged (which apparently isn't very hard to do !!!). One day I realized that SWTE was attacking the messenger. Their posts had little or nothing to do with the actual accusations against the assembly. They were consumed with undermining the character of people who spoke against  assembly ways. That's called "redirecting" at our house and it isn't allowed when we're discussing a conflict. No offense meant against Sondra, whom I don't even know and wish well, but I don't find the site useful.

Speaking of "she-who-must-not-be-named" I feel downright weird nowadays when my kids are the ones reading & watching Harry Potter when most in my family and church have nothing to do with it. But that's another subject.

Ok, back to the Word...

Karey

P.S. thanks for that reminder, Brent, about being convinced in our own minds. Gosh, that's good to hear over and over. The concept of honoring another's free will (including the consequences, but NEVER NEVER without hope) is revolutionizing our family.

WOW!! WHAT VICIOUSNESS. the lack of charity on this site amazes me..no wonder so-called christians are persecuted.  all that God meant for us to be drawn from is presented here,(with a few exceptions).  referring to other sites which have no link to this site in a derogatory way, is an example of how the self-exalted and spiritual giants (self-appointed) have learned narrowness  and condemnation.  is that not one of the things from which people ran? sorry, its following some! for example, this site, i'm sure was originally designed as a departure from such a prosecutory spirit (the very spirit from which those reading fled). 'we are our own worst enemies' by not remembering the basics of which we first learned.  instead of approaching a fellow believer with charity (remember that attribute that is "above all"), they are ridiculed for having an alternative way(which self-appointed theologists have allowed their intellect to negate simply by the act of intellectualizing).  i can only assume two things: One is that some stayed too long and Two the self who was made strong(by what source each must judge) still is very much alive.  humility,is another characteristic which is still desired by God & not by GG only.  to those who sincerely are hurt, my advise is to not allow bitterness to dictate your responses to our Lord and His.   true quiet times (not as a ritual) will allow a relationship with our Lord to flourish..as joyce meyer has said "God can  heal you wherever you hurt".  while in the assembly, i was behind the scenes and so the same will be true here.

Elaine Hoffee Salmi, the seagull, sister of Sondra (swteagles), and the mother of Sarah
                                                           
p.s. i'm trully sorry for those who have such anger,bitterness and ego;some whom i've known personnally.  to see this saddens me, but as learned before: when we have our eyes on man, we will be disappointed. we may be simple birds but free and so, indeed.

I take it we won't be invited to your family BBQ's?

Brent

Gee, that sounds familiar. ;)

Scott

I think you need to read your sister's site and post the same message.

Trucker?
   Are you for real or are you joking?  As a real trucker I am offended at your comic portrayal and suspect that your handle is a disguise to pull our legs.  Is this really Joe Sperling fooling us by registering with a phony name?
  Karey:
   Before I was saved I was down on New Years Eve at the Rose Parade getting stoned with my friends.  It was very late and I was drunk, on LSD, and had smoked lots of weed as I stumbled down the street with my friend.  There were pentecostal street preachers out witnessing and one of them layed hands on my friend and prayed that he would become sober.  My friend fell over and people on the sidewalk laughed at the failed miracle, but I felt something touch my spirit and I was instantly sober! :o  The miracle worker's back was to me and the crowds' attention was on my friend and so nobody saw what happened to me.  From that day on I knew that Christianity was real and though I didn't get saved then it was an event that prepared the way for it.
   Miracles can happen, and I have experienced at least one more after my salvation, but I don't think we can live our lives expecting signs and wonders constantly.  It is the more mature Christian who can live by faith when there is no obvious sign that God is present or that He is working.   My faith in the Bible causes me to doubt the source of miracles in the name of Mary, Buddha, etc., but whether such miracles are from demons or creative imaginations I can not tell.
   The Assembly version of "signs and wonders" was  "God speaking to us through a verse.  Life based on feeling the presence of God at every instance is not the normal Christian life and will lead to serious ups and downs.  
                                            God Bless, Mark C.

     ...hence Paul & Timothy tell the Philippian saints, "Rejoice in the Lord always..."(Phil.4:4)

     In the assembly, we were constantly exhorted, admonished and commanded to "Rejoice."  But the correct focus was not emphasized, and therefore we didn't know how to do what was demanded of us, and consumed a lot of our energies attempting to accomplish we knew not what.
     Oh, yes, we sang the chorus, "Rejoice, rejoice, and again I say Rejoice!  Rejoice, rejoice..."  But we were so firmly instructed in acknowledging experiences and feelings as evidence of the Lord's presence, that we became oblivious to what "...in the Lord" means.

     Almost every week, the news media show us someone celebrating having purchased a winning lottery ticket.  Those "lucky winners" are rejoicing in their good fortune at being delivered from their present financial state, at suddenly being able to pay off all their debts, at having more than enough left over to live like royalty, proffering generosity to family and friends.
     But such fortune pales to insignificance before the gifts we receive in Jesus Christ.  All our debts are paid-- past, present and future.  Better than living like royalty, we are recreated to be royalty in Him.  His death has delivered us forever from the sorrowful limitations of this world, transporting us into the glorious inheritance of eternity, and the water of Life which we drink of Him becomes in us rivers of Living Water flowing out to all around us.
     ...and we didn't even have to buy a ticket!  We couldn't have bought a ticket.  We didn't ever possess the currency.  Jesus paid it all...
     Reflecting upon these truths, reading the scriptural accounts of Christ's persecution, agony and death, reviewing the prophecies before and the glorious results following His sacrifice, we begin to comprehend and, as a consequence of understanding, to rejoice.  For if we believe and accept and revel in the Truth of the gospel of Jesus Christ we are unable to not rejoice.
     This is the reason for the rejoinder to rejoice "in the Lord," and not merely in His blessings.  It is the Lord Who gives us each blessing, and not the blessing which brings us the Lord.  As we reflect upon His glorious Person, we will be able to keep our personal miracles, the scriptural revelation during morning time, the "sign" on the passing delivery van, in perspective.  We won't limit our rejoicing to only these sensational occurrences, but will recognize that Christ is permanently in our lives, we are permanently in Him, and He is The Same, yesterday, today and forever, with or without accompanying wonders.
     That is the reason we can rejoice in the Lord, and do it always.  But the extras, the special added attractions, need not be discounted or ignored.  No, we are encouraged to show our appreciation for them also, for Paul adds, "...and again I say Rejoice."

     Forgive me, please, but I have to ask:  Brother, ...Sister, ...are you rejoicing? ;)  It's OK...  
          go ahead and rejoice...  
                    you're even encouraged to enjoy it!!! :D

God bless you all,
al


     

I apologize for taking a while to reply. I see that the conversation has moved on but, I believe I have some answering to do for my previous post.  First, Thomas Maddox, yes my name is Sarah Hoffee. I’m not sure what the point was in your asking- but if it was for clarification- then yes it is as it seems. I did say what I disagree with in very general terms. More specifically I disagree with putting God in a box that is made by religious doctrines and what “one” has experienced as the norm in their life. ***Cor. 13:13 But for now three things last- Faith, Hope, and Love, and the greatest of these is love.*** Previously and later in the chapter Paul is talking about gifts two of which are tongues and prophesy. Tongues- speaking in an unknown language to edify the believer. Tongues w/ interpretation- to edify the body. Prophesy - to reveal , convict and edify. ( I am getting to a point here). ***1 Cor. 2:10-12 It is to us, however, that God has revealed these things. How? Through the Spirit. For the Spirit probes all things, even the profoundest depths of God. For who knows the inner workings of a person except the person’s own spirit inside him? So too no one knows the inner workings of God except God’s Spirit. Now we have not received the spirit of the world but the Spirit of God, so that we might understand the things God has so freely given us. ***  Thomas here are the answers to your questions.    
1.How does one know when God is "communicating via His Spirit to the human spirit?
    Remember when you weren’t saved and  God was speaking (convicting) to you? That same way, that same voice. Not the voice of guilt one might feel from a preacher. But when you were tugged by love. When you asked Christ to forgive your sins and you had that assurance.  Not to say that every time you think God is speaking to you that He is- but, it would be like getting a phone call from a friend that say you’ve only communicated with via email. The first time your friend spoke you wouldn’t recognize their voice. But, you would realize as they talked the things they knew of you. Maybe the second time you still wouldn’t recognize the voice but you are growing more accustomed. One time maybe someone calls and you think you recognize it as you friends voice so you don’t ask to verify and it is someone else. So, how do you know when God is speaking to you? by speaking and listening to Him. practice. Remembering what He sounds like (spiritually speaking).
****1 Sam 3: 1-9**** ß Learning to hear.
2. Where does the Bible teach that Christians should expect to "hear from God"?
***John 17:7-8 Now they have known all things that thou hast given me are of thee: for the words (Rhema- divine communications) which thou hast given me I have given them..***John 17:21.. As thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be on in us…(22) And the glory which thou hast given me I have given them, that they may be one, as we are one; I in them and thou in me, that they may be perfected into one..*** So, I would say using Christ as the example- He expected to hear from God ( as displayed in His allotting of time to meditation), He heard from God, and as stated above He wanted us to have the same relationship with the Father as He did- (which involved divine communication)
3. How does one know when God is "doing a new thing"?
I should clarify what I mean here. Everyone knows there is nothing new under the sun. But there are revelations of what is under the sun that can be “new” to the person receiving the revelation. Was the fact that God was going to open the plan of salvation to the nations a “new” thing?  No it was exposed during his promise to Abraham. But the meaning was revealed to Paul later. God revealed it to the right person at the right time and that person was listening.
4. What do you think a parable is? I have not spent much time studying parables. But from what I understand they are stories that use familiar  terms to express a parallel meaning. I would assume that the person studying the parable would not only have to have a working knowledge of the time and culture the parable was used but, also a spiritual ear for hearing. A “spiritual” ear - being the key not a “logical” ear. ***Mark 4:9- He that has ears to hear, let him hear.*** ß concerning parables.
5. Just how does one know one is hearing a "fresh word from God"?
Again, I think this is most commonly a “fresh word” for that person. If it is a prophetic “fresh-word” (new thing that God is bringing a person/people into) then you know either previous to fulfillment by discernment or by God fulfilling His word.  Joseph received a prophetic “fresh” word/ vision from God but his circumstances contradicted that “word“. In ***Psalm 105:19- Until the time when what he said came about: the word of Jehovah tried him.*** The time between hearing and receiving, becomes the trial of faith. ( I don’t know if that answers your question)
6. Who is the verse from Acts 2 about "Your daughters shall prophesy" addressed to?
I would say to those that received the indwelling/ baptism of the Holy Spirit. Post Christ resurrection and ascension.
7. How many miracles do you see in an average day?
In an average day…Depends on what you call a miracle. If your asking does my dog speak to me? No. Although I would not say that he could not. A dog is little different probability wise than an ass.

To bring up people that kill in the name of God is not relevant. I am not speaking in regards to people that are insane. If I were I believe that would be a totally different topic.

The big question is how can anyone else know that you have "heard from God". --
*** “Proof is in the puddin’”*** ;) so to say

These are my personal answers that I have come up with based on my experiences with Christ. I believe them to be biblically correct. Experiences that I experienced because one day I traced back to the voice that called me out of the world and “remembered” it. I took a hold of things in the bible that I had a hard time believing. Healing, prophesy, tongues, etc. And told God that I believed He could do anything.  That my belief in His abilities would not be limited by religion or doctrine. But my understanding would be based on faith, hope and love. Especially love. Sorry for the length of this post but, I know I had explaining to do. I hope this adequate.---     Sarah Hoffee, daughter of the trucker(and yes she is), niece of the "eagle", and joint heir with Christ. :-*

I remember years ago driving to work.  I was going to stop into a donut shop on Harbor Blvd. to bring donuts into work for those I work with.  I felt deep within me the admonition, "don't go."  I went to work and discovered that someone else had brought in donuts so the voice kept me from buying more than was needed.

That night, I went to a Dodger game.  It was getting towards the ninth and the Dodgers were behind.  I felt deep within a voice that said, "the man on first will be batted in and the Dodgers will win".

The man at home got out and the Dodgers lost.

I'm am not making this up or trying to be cute.  I literally had these deep impressions within me.  One proved to be right (and I could say was "of God") while the other proved to be wrong.

The problem with living in the world of experience and feelings is that one is at a standstill.  I can't prove to you God spoke to me and you can't prove to me that he didn't.  Who's right?

This is why there has to be some sort of objective truth by which a subjective experience is to be validated.

-Dave

P.S.:  Recently Pat Robertson said that God told him that Bush would win a second term as President.  See Cal Thomas' response to this prophetic word.

http://www.townhall.com/columnists/calthomas/ct20040107.shtml

Hello Sarah Hoffee,

I asked because I didn't know what your name was.  I don't recall having heard of you before seeing the one word version on the board.

My name, BTW, is Maddux.  

I will reply to your post soon.

God bless,

Tom

I read Cal Thomas' book Blinded by Might when it first came out and I heartily recommend it.  I have always wrangled over the issue of the relationship between one's religious views and political actions (or lack thereof).

In the assembly we attempted to regulate holiness with GG's directives.  Is it any better to attempt that using the government?  On the other hand, isn't it inconsistent to believe one way and vote another way?  I don't know yet.

I do know that what this country needs is a widespread revival, and only God can give one!

Jack

I read most of Blinded By Might last October.  I think the main point of the book is that Moral Majority's mistake was attempting to change society by grabbing power and instituting change from the top down.

If you force laws upon people of which their heart is not convinced (such as Prohibition) you only increase lawlessness because the unpersuaded heart goes underground and has a greater disrespect for the law.

The other mistake of the Moral Majority is not seeing a distinction between religion and politics.  Religion (specifically Christianity) believes in absolutes while politics is the art of the possible.  Christians have a hard time in the political arena because they want to build their lives on principle, not compromise.  Unfortunately, politics is all about compromise.  Our system of government is set up where no one gets everything they want (unless they cheat and use activist judges, but we won't get into that).

So, I don't think the message of Blinded by Might was "don't vote your conscience" or even "don't engage in the political process" or "don't vote".   I think we are to use all the legal means (voting, letter to the editor, grass roots effort, principled persuasion, etc.) to express our views and further our cause.  This is what America is about.  However, we can't let successes go to our head whereby we become blinded by might and think that we are God's A-team to hold back corruption and thereby begin to use shoddy tactics and become a poor witness to the world.

 :)JUNE 25: 3:59 AM

FROM THE BOOK: THE TALES OF THE TARDY OXCART:

THY WORD:
AUTHOR: Edwin Holder

Thy Word is like a garden, Lord
with flowers bright and fair;
And evey one who seeks may pluck
A lovely cluster there.
Thy Word is like a deep, deep mine;
And jewels rich and rare
Are hidden in its mighty depths
For every searcher there.

Thy Word is like a starry host
A thousand rays of light
Are seen to guide the traveler,
and make his pathway bright.
Thy Word is like an armory,
Where soldiers may repair,
And find for life's long battle-day
All needful weapons there.

Oh, may I love Thy Precious Word;
May I explore the mine;
May I its fragrant flowers glean;
May light upon me shine.
Oh, may I find my armour there;
Thy Word my trusty sword,
I'll learn to fight with every foe
The battle of the Lord.

The Word of God is amazing. As we have heard before, every thing in the Bible has a reason for being there. I remember once having a discussion with a Jehovah's Witness who said Jesus was not God. The conversation upset me, because the Jehovah's Witness used verses that seemed to imply that Jesus was less than God, such as "My Father is greater than I" and so forth.

Later that day I was reading the Gospel of John and came upon a verse that most of us would probably read past quickly without thinking of it's importance. I had read past it many times before. But maybe because of the conversation I had had, the Lord wanted me to see this more clearly.  It's really quite simple:  John 6:10: "And Jesus said 'make the men sit down'. Now there was much grass in the place".

I remember staring at it and then Psalm 23 coming immediately to mind: "Jehovah is my Shepherd, I shall not want. He MAKETH me to lie down in GREEN PASTURES".  That's exactly what Jesus did--he made the men sit down on green grass. It's a very simple couple of sentences but they are filled with power--because they reveal that Jesus is not only a Good Shepherd, he is the shepherd from Psalm 23, Jehovah. I remember rejoicing greatly when seeing that and realizing that everything in the Bible truly IS there for a reason. Some of them we can read right past quickly(such as "there was much grass in the place") without realizing that God is teaching or confirming something very important with that simple sentence.

--Joe