He who is without sin among you, let him cast the first stone at George Geftakys

[al Hartman]

Luke, et al,

     When you have learned good things form men who have done dreadful deeds and you are grateful, be sure that your gratitude is well-placed.  

     Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, coming down from the Father of lights, with whom can be no variation, neither shadow that is cast by turning.
(James 1:17)  There is only ONE source of blessing.

     In our flesh dwells NOTHING good, so if you receive something from a man and it blesses you, it is because that man was used by God as a vessel.

     i am not saying that we shouldn't appreciate, even thank, the vessel, but our gratitude is always due to God.

     Being used as God's vessel is no protection against error.  The bible is replete with examples of God's men who failed.  Even after serving him for years, some failed horribly.  We must be on guard, both  to keep ourselves close to the Lord, and to honor no one for his record alone, but for his present testimony of God in his life.

     If a man's character has become corrupt, naming his
sin(s) is not character assassination but, sadly, a necessary responsibility.

     We must keep close accounts with God.  i learned that listening to George Geftakys.  That he failed as an example of the precept is sad, but in no way negates the truth of it.

For the love of God,
brother al

[vernecarty]

Just remember...you asked for it.
Verne

Well Master Luke-any wiser? Although your brother suffers from some of the same assemblyisms, I get the distinct impression that he is made of sterner stuff than you; perhaps he can teach you a thing or two...
Verne
p.s. wipe the tearful blubber off your face and play the man...low blow indeed! You made it too easy...

[vernecarty]

Luke:
Have you noticed how many of the rotten people on this BB are patiently trying to reason with you? Any of them successful so far...? Proverbs 26:4,5
Verne

[Luke Robinson]

Dear Mr. Hartman,

Thank you for that last post.  You're absolutely correct.

[Luke Robinson]

Wow!!  Lesson number 2!  This is so exciting.  

Ok, so first it's racism, then it's assembly and brother comparison.  You've shown your cards.  But maybe you might have an ace up your sleeve.  Who knows?

[Mark C.]

Dear Luke,
  I apologize for not following fully your arguments.  I now understand that you are dealing with Tim and not GG.  I only read and post on weekends, as I'm travelling during the week.
  I appreciate your respect and I hope that you would have similar respect for the others who have been concerned with your posts on this BB.  Please try to humbly receive what these very wise individuals have tried to tell you.
   Though I directed my previous post to the subject of GG, and not any of his subordinates, it is very difficult to separate individuals from the system that they were involved with.  God judges individuals, as well as churches,(see Rev. and churches of Asia), but it is the Geftakys church that I was talking about here.
 The exalted Christ takes the above mentioned Churches to task as a group (a system, if you will).  The Lord is attempting to deal with "group" sin,  to gain an acknowledgment of same, and to get a turning from it.
  The problem, in my opinion, with the Assemblies now is the danger of only a partial acceptance of God's entreaty to the Christians who are trying to keep the group going.  In other words, suggesting that GG is evil, but many of his teachings and practices were from God (an oxymoron, in my opinion).
   Some defenders of the system have taken on a defense lawyer stance of requiring that those calling for a full repentance (2.Cor.7) to provide specific accusations of personal culpability (there are those still clinging to such legal defenses for GG in that his "trial" was not conducted correctly).  These above legal stances are not how God deals with "systems" that are out of His will; churches are called upon to acknowledge that God sees clearly what the issues are, and our part is to humbly and fully respond to His entreaties.
   I don't know where Tim's heart is, but it doesn't change the fact that he should step down as a leader.  He needs to understand that the Assembly system is under God's judgment and needs to receive instruction as to why that's the case.  There is no need to prove Tim has personal sin to repent of even if he is sincere, for he is sincerely wrong re. his involvement in the Assembly system.  
  Tim needs to go to God himself to purchase the, "gold refined in fire" (Rev. 3:18).  Why purchase it?  There will be a personal cost to gain clarity and true wealth with God.  The cost is one of losing position and power; one of losing all the years of emotional investment in the group, but it will lead to a blessed end.  You can never go wrong with humility.
   All these ex-leaders need to sit in a pew and learn from someone else re. the true nature of the Gospel and Christian relationships, regardless of the degree of their personal culpability as sinners.
                           God Bless,  Mark  

[Luke Robinson]

Dear Mr. Campbell,

Thank you for your post.  You have clarified a few things, and I totally agree with you on all your points.  

Dear Mr. Carty,

The thing is, i opened the arena.  But you started a whole new one and dared me to come in.  Your gladiator games are inspiring.

[moonflower]

Dear Mr. Carty,

The thing is, i opened the arena.  

You didn't open the arena. Gracetruth did.

[Mark C.]

Dear Luke.
  Thank you for your gracious response.  My prayer is Tim, and other would be Assembly restorationists, would also agree.
  Vern,
  Thank you very much for your kindness.  Like everyone, sometimes I lose it and can get pretty angry and cynical.  It is impossible for me to separate my strong emotions from my thoughts in re. to the Assembly.  It's probably a good thing that I don't spend that much time on the BB, as it can accelerate my heart beat at times.
   As I've said before, being pollyannish or indifferent to Assembly abuses is the opposite of the love we are commanded to show our brethren.  When others try to mitigate a full repentance it may call for a strong word of rebuke, from time to time.  There will come a time when maybe we will have to stop our entreaty here, but God never stops seeking those he loves.
 Praise God for both His Truth and His Mercy!  Mark

[4Him]

Dear Luke,
  I apologize for not following fully your arguments.  I now understand that you are dealing with Tim and not GG.
...
  I appreciate your respect and I hope that you would have similar respect for the others who have been concerned with your posts on this BB.  Please try to humbly receive what these very wise individuals have tried to tell you.
...
   All these ex-leaders need to sit in a pew and learn from someone else re. the true nature of the Gospel and Christian relationships, regardless of the degree of their personal culpability as sinners.
                           God Bless,  Mark  

Mark,
You may be "only a truck driver" but I think God is using you in and amazing way on this board to get down to the real issues and communicate them clearly.  I will refer to the above referred-to post when I want to communicate my feelings/thoughts to others, especially to ones on the fence or on the "assembly" side of the fence.

Luke and others (like Rebecca D.) - Read and re-read that post and take heed to what this wise brother is saying and how he is saying it.  His concern, like mine, Verne's, Al's, et al is born in the love of Christ for souls, that each one (including Tim G., Mike Z., George G., ...) might come to full realization and repentance and restoration in the grace and liberty of God.

Tim Souther

[Mark C.]

Thanks Tim,
  Some e-mail's I've received recently would suggest that I am in over my head in giving advice to our good Assembly friends .  The last thing we need is experts telling us how to live the Christian life, and I do fear sometimes the danger of "pontificating" in my posts'.  
   I feel like the rewards outweigh the risks, if it is helpful to those who we are trying to reach.  I also constantly think of the poor souls "who were left for dead" by the Assembly and could be helped by seeing that God is different from the performance demanding one taught in the Assembly.
  One good thing about long lonely hours of trucking and that is you are given time to think; lately my thoughts have been on God and Assembly issues.
   Are you the same Tim from Springfield who backed into our brick wall in Granda Hills, CA.? M. Miller was living with us then.        God Bless,  Mark
 P.S. I'm not bitter, just wondering if I have the right Tim .

[Oscar]

Hi folks,

In thinking of "assembly restorationists" it helps me to realize that there are two separate issues here.

One is the many acts of moral evil commited by people involved in the assemblies as they functioned in the system.  Many of us are guilty here.  Some of us have repented and have tried to make what amends we can, although there is no way to call back harsh words or bad treatment of our bretheren.

The other issue is the Plymouth Brethren ideas on church polity that George Geftakys taught us all.  Many of the "restorationists" still believe that these teachings are valid and would vigorously argue to uphold them if you asked them TODAY.   They see no reason to "repent" of this and wish to continue in the "heavenly pattern" in their fellowship with other believers.

I departed from Brethrenism many years ago for reasons I feel are Biblically valid.  However, the exclusivism of GG's assemblies has prevented them from even knowing about good arguements against their ideas.  I think that those who open up and actually associate with the Body of Christ
will begin to see the problems with their beliefs.

Those who keep their heads in the Brethren "sand", won't.

BUT, we need to remember that men need to repent of MORAL EVIL, not arranging the chairs in a circle.  There is a difference between evil and error.

God bless,
Thomas Maddux

[Mark C.]

Hi Tom!
  It's interesting that you should bring up that point because this last week I ran into a couple of "brethren" who run a Christian camp.  They gave me their magazine and we talked for a bit.
  Very dear men who displayed tremendous humility as we discussed the issue of ecclesiology.  They did not understand the concept of "heavenly pattern" as the Assembly did.  They also were very aware that there is something wrong in the Brethren Assemblies as they are losing their youth.
  Their problem, as they explained it, is their focus on a system, instead of focusing on the love of Christ.
   When I previously mentioned a "system" of error I was not referring to the pattern of meetings.  The system I was trying to define was the toxic system of teaching and practice that led to control and abuse.  Such words/phrases as, hypocrisy, nicolaitism, elitism, arrogance, dishonesty and beating the sheep are in line with the kind of systemized error that I was referring to.
   As you well know, (having received some of the above.) this kind of sin was placed within a contrived method of government that GG headed up and controlled via his Workers and Leading Bros.  It wouldn't matter if this evil system were in a Baptist church or a plymouth brethren church it would still operate as an evil system of control and abuse.
   Some of the controls were not spoken about, or in some cases were even denied, but nonetheless they were active and operated in a very systematic way. To those interested, please read, "The Subtle Power Of Spiritual Abuse" which was written re. just regular evangelical churches on the corner.  The book shows how the evil system can operate in a very subtle, but effective way to damage souls in it's power.
  My point is that individual moral sin can spread into a group (especially when the leader promotes his heretical views) and operate in such a way that the Lord comes to the entire church group and asks for an acknowledgment of the evil system, a full confession of sin re. it, and a full repentance from it.  If this is not the case what is happening in Rev. 2 thru 3 ?  What does he mean by removing the lampstand of these groups?  He certainly is not revoking salvation for individuals in the group.  He never seems to be concerned with their "pattern" of meeting, but more with their pattern of "good works".
                             God Bless, Mark

[Luke Robinson]

Dear Verne,

Thank you very much for your apology.  I am sorry I got so offended at that, but it made me quite angry that you would call me that.  But it is all good.  God bless you.  I will try to be more agreeable in the future, brother.

A Brother in Christ,

Luke Robinson

[Luke Robinson]

Dear Tim,

I totally understand your concern and others because I share it.  

Yes, I admire you all for how you have been willing to bring to light many things in that past months.  And I am grateful that God has done this work.

But make sure that you are directly on target.  And to not overstep in your judgment.

A Brother in Christ,

Luke Robinson