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He who is without sin among you, let him cast the first stone at George Geftakys.

John 8:7  But as they continued to ask Him, He lifted Himself up and said to them, He who is without sin among you, let him cast the first stone at her.

Mat 7:2  For with whatever judgment you judge, you shall be judged; and with whatever measure you measure out, it shall be measured to you again.

John 16:2  They shall put you out of the synagogue. But an hour is coming that everyone who kills you will think that he bears God service.

1 Peter 3:9-10  Never give back evil for evil, or reviling for reviling, but on the contrary, giving blessing, knowing that you are called to this so that you might inherit blessing. For he that wants to love life and to see good days, let him restrain his tongue from evil, and his lips from speaking guile.

Then spake Jesus again unto them, saying, I am the light of the world: he that followeth me shall not walk in darkness*, but shall have the light of life. (Jn 8:12)

*darkness - secrecy, anonymity (as in anonymous posting), the way George and the "work" operated for years and years (read "characteristics of workers").

Mr. Geftakys is not one of the sheep caught in "adultery".  He is a Pharisee/Sadducee/Scribe/etc. caught practicing wickedness and abusing many using his supposed God given authority as "God's Servant/Apostle".   Consider Jesus' extremely severe condemnation of such in Matthew 23.  The whole point in this is to provide means for God's sheep in the "assemblies" to enable them to escape and to enter into true liberty and grace.  This has, by the power structure of the "leading brother" and "worker" system, been denied them for decades,   (Try reading The Subtle Power of Spiritual Abuse by Johnson & VanVonderan.)  To hide abuse of power is to participate in the sin.  This issue w/GG has been addressed in a scriptural way:

1. Mt 18:15 - Moreover if thy brother shall trespass against thee, go and tell him his fault between thee and him alone: if he shall hear thee, thou hast gained thy brother. (This was done repeatedly by many over the years. George would not hear it!)

2. v. 16  But if he will not hear thee, then take with thee one or two more, that in the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established. (This was done.  Again, George would not repent!)

3. v. 17a - And if he shall neglect to hear them, tell it unto the church: (This was done. Once again, George refuses to repent.)

So, "gracetruth", what is left?  :-\  :'(

4. v. 17b - but if he neglect to hear the church, let him be unto thee as an heathen man and a publican.

 PSALM 139: 21 & 22
"Do not I hate them, O Lord, who hate You? And am not I    greived and do not I loathe those who rise up against You ?
I hate them with a perfect hatred; they have become my enemies"

 GALATIONS 6:7
 "God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap"
 NOBODY HAS TO THROW ROCKS AT GEORGE AND THOSE WHO IMITATED HIM. GEORGE LIKE EVERYONE ELSE IS REAPING WHAT HIS CHARACTER SOWED.
 THERE IS VERY LIGITIMATE CONCERN WHEN HE CAN'T ACKNOWLEDGE THE WRONGS HE HAS DONE. HE REFUSES ACCOUNTABILITY TO THOSE WHOSES LIVES HE HURT. THIS CAN MEAN ONLY ONE THING; HE AND THOSE LIKE HIM ARE LOOKING FOR NEW VICTIMS.

Those are the facts grace"truth".  Others have been excommunicated for reasons other than actual sin in their lives, or for only one specific chapter in the Geftakys Trilogy. Is there a reason that George should not be excommunicated? Is there a reason that we should not be talking about the fact that we were being led by someone who was living a lie?
Some of the postings are fox-hole humor, and it is allowed.  "Walk a mile in our shoes....." and read your quoted scriptures to George.

Was George stoned? :) I don’t think that we are trying to punish him, bur rather reveal the sin, otherwise by knowingly remaining silent we become partakers of his sin.  And yes there are consequences to sin.

"what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? and what communion hath light with darkness?"

We need to stand for righteousness.  By not doing so we are not only sinning against the Lord, but even against Mr. Geftakys. :o Ignoring the sin is of no benefit to George, but it rather it is of  harm to him.  Ignoring sins is "the stone" that does the real damage, and I for one do not want to be responsible for casting that stone.

Retread...

You're the top "senior citizen" on my list... ;)

Did you ever get that "I was in the assembly and all I got was this shirt" t-shirt for being the 15th poster???
If not, I'll take care of it...

RetreadFan

P.S.  I don't want you rushing out and identifying yourself and doing all kinds of crazy stuff in your excitement...you don't HAVE to tell us who you are...is that understood???
 ;)

To quote a great man:

Kids say the darndest things

To quote another great man:

There's a sucker born every minute.

You resemble that remark! ;D

You're so very right...
What was I thinking to waste the time and energy to actually respond to you????  ;)

SebastianFan

Hey Grace,

Perhaps you need to get back to the basics:
Sticks and stones may break my bones but words will never hurt me....

Unless of course those words are the truth and you have been lying all your life. Casting the first stone? NO but I will be the first to double dog dare George to tell the truth!

Let's get him up on a stand in a court room full of his peers and see what he has to say. You can be his attorney and I will cross-examine.

Who said I was addressing you? ;D

Who said you weren't?

Jim - I suppose if Tim Geftakys said that this past weekend he was doing cart wheels on the moon, we should just go ahead and believe that to.  Geez, your right - The "nerve" of us (or me) to mock ridicule or slander him...After all, when Tim was in command, didn't he often mock ridicule and slander others.   This guy deserves to be silenced.  If people are bitter or angry, then so be it.

By the way, nobody is asking you to read the posts where your boy Tim Geftakys is being slandered!!!

To those of you who feel the need to defend Tim or the Word of God:

In the assembly the Word of God was used against the victims, I myself know this personally because when I tried to make known to the SLO leadership the abuse between Dave & Judy verses were brought up and I became a slanderer and gossiper. Verses such as Eph 4:29 "Let no corrupt communication proceed out of your mouth but that which is good to the use of edifying, that it may minister grace unto the hearers." Proverbs 26:20 "For lack of wood the fire goes out and where there is no whisperer, contention quiets down." Proverbs 6:19 states that one of the 7 things that are an adomination to the Lord is ...."A false witness who utters lies and one who spreads strife among brothers." All these verses were used against me and all I did was tell the truth. I find it alittle odd that I shouldn't judge Tim with the same judgement that he judged me with. If I do so then there is no grace and I become just like him.

I do know that Tim & Ginger both knew about the abuse between Dave & Judy. I know they didn't do anything about it. I also know that Tim has treated some sisters who lived in his house quite badly, their testimonies are all over this BB.

Here is what I don't know... How could a man who was part of this ministry (Tim) step down and then step back up again. Where is his repentance? He has not attempted to make it right with the women he has hurt. How can you follow a shepherd who is like that?

Heide

Jim:

Which posts on this BB are you referring to?  I can't find the ones that continue to propagate that Tim has committed adultery.  I remember reading that Tim said he was faithful with Ginger.  But if there are any accusations here, this may help with some questions that I have. Please point me to the posts, this may answer some questions for me.

Thanks

Heide:

If you were judged falsely ( I believe you) don't go and do the same thing. However, if there is evidence to back up the insuation of adultery (Like Jim I think it is there) the specific facts need to be made known . At least say what "treating quite badly" means. Please pardon me if you did and I missed it.

Sebastian:

Was Tim the son you were referring to in your message regarding asking for massages from sisters?  If so, then this could be part of what Heide eluded to.

Dear Everyone,

I notice some similarities with this website and with history.  Please observe:

Back in the fifties, there was a thing called the "Red Scare".  It was when Americans were freaking out about Communism.  And so they started questioning everyone about their Communist beliefs.  Men and women were put on things called "blacklists" to show that they were Commies.  Falsely and truthfully.  They were publically shamed and some were even executed.

Back in the 1600's, there was a thing called the Salem Witch Trials.  It was where the colonists got freaked out by alleged witches.  They would hold court and neighbor would testify against neighbor.  "I saw Edward lift a duck with his eyes!!  And then he killed my dog with his witchcraft!!  I never saw it, but I know what he is like!!"  And so innocent people would dangle from a noose, mainly because of a rumor.  Unless, the guilty one recanted and confessed to doing so.  Even then, he or she might still get the noose.

Now we come to modern day, 2003.  Here we are still at the same things.  "I heard that so-and-so did such-and-such with so-and-so.  He needs to repent."

Over time, I have learned that this website believes: "Guilty until proven innocent."  And now this same mistrusting, sad state is shifting to everyone else.  Everyone is kept at a distance with suspicious glances and gossip on the side.  
"Recant, Tim Geftakys!  Repent, and Mother Website will recieve thee once more!"

Joan of Arc went through this with the Roman Catholics.  They made her recant and repent.  She did.  She was still burned to fine powder.

geftakysassembly.com seems to becoming more and more like this.  

This is pathetic.  There is no love here.  Just hateful, mistrusting attitudes.  Walk away, folks.  You have lives to live.  You have a Savior to live for.  

I know I will get lovely replies to this.  Something like "How dare you waltz in here and say that!"  I prefer to tango in truth.

And maybe some of you will come along and make judgements strictly on this post.  "You are so proud, Luke!  But then again so was I at your age!  Repent!"

Folks, this website just keeps getting lower and lower.  The dirt piles higher as we dig ourselves deeper.  "I need a new shovel!!"  No you don't.  You need a rope ladder thrown down to your poor self so you can get out of that mess.  

A Brother in Christ,

Luke Robinson

Luke Robinson:

I know you can't help saying the things you say, for a number of reasons, not the least of which is that you spent your whole life to date in the Assembly of George Geftakys.  It is not your fault, and for that reason, much of what you say I gladly overlook.

Let me give you a few facts:

This BB is NOT part of Geftakysassembly.com anymore, for precisely the reasons you site below.  Even though there is much on this BB that is "bad," there is far more that is quite good.  Nevertheless, I take no responsibility for the content on this bulletin board, except for the things which I have written myself.  You can't take what is written here and apply it to GA.com, they are seperate. Again, I understand why it bothers you, because of your upbringing.

Also, let me assure you that I have signed statements in my possession regarding Tim Geftakys and his conduct that demonstrate that he has a clear tendency to behave in improper ways towards sisters in his home.  In addition, I can prove that he is guilty of covering up his brother's abuse, as well as that of another couple.  I'll say no more than that for now.  

I'll tell you something funny.  I was taken to task, by people like you, 4 months ago, for saying that George was guilty.  People railed on me, and called me a liar, etc.  Well, how did it turn out?  Was I telling the truth?  (I think we both know the answer to that.)

Don't be too quick to judge that what people are saying is not true, just because you don't like the sound of it.  When I see something here that is not true, I always come right out and correct it.  Correcting error is done with truth, and facts.  Labeling the person who promulgates error as, "hateful, with a mistrusting attitude," does not demonstrate how they are in error.  If you have information that shows that the story someone is telling is false, then out with it!  If a person continues to espouse falsehood, then a label becomes appropriate, but not before.

Now, to label the GA.com website as a Salem Witch Trial, is really rather funny.  Did you see this on TV recently?  Also, not one thing on the main website can be considered, "I heard that so-and-so did such-and-such with so-and-so," as you describe.  Everything that is said is backed up by witnesses and a preponderance of irrefutable evidence.  Again, George wasn't excommunicated due to a rumor.  Why is it so hard for you to realize that if the lord of the house is a scoundrel, then many of the house servants were also?

Dear Luke, the worst thing that could happen to you right now, is that the people on this BB, like Verne Carty, Mark Campbell, Tom Maddux and others decide it's not worth it anymore.  Then you won't have the priviledge of hearing the truth about what you have been involved in, and you will be doomed to repeat it.  You may still do so yet.  Many people who are involved in groups like the Geftakys Assembly, don't learn the first time, and go on to repeat the errors in another organization.  I hope you don't do this, but statistics say you will.  While it is unfair to call you prideful, simply due to your posts, if in fact you are as proud as your words seem to indicate, you will certainly become entangled again in a yoke of bondage.

You were the one who wrote to Rick Ross and got put into the Hall of Flames, if I am not mistaken.  

"We are members of the [Geftakys] Assembly. Everything you say on your website is false and from the devil. The assembly is where we grew up. You should refrain from mocking and lying about us. It's funny how many other religions that are wrong can be accepted, but the true religion is always mocked and called a cult. Don't worry Rick, Satan does not have a full grasp on you yet. There is still hope!! Praise the Lord! We will pray for you."

This recipient later wrote -- "I could care less about being put in your stupid 'Hall of Flames.' It should be a reminder to you that if you keep calling us a 'cult,' that's where you will go--to the hall of flames in HELL."



Did you ever write back to him and tell him that not everything that he published on his site was, "false and of the Devil?"  In fact, I wrote most of the info on that site, and I demand that you tell me what I wrote that is "false and of the Devil."  

Poor George, poor Tim, poor David.  We should be nicer to them.  Poor saints who blindly followed them,  we shouldn't have been so mean to shine the light in their eyes.  They were so happy before, when they listened to George, and the Assemblies were thriving...(when was that?  They have always been dismally lacking in growth)

Anyway, you get the picture.  I, for one, am losing patience with you and people like you, and am getting ready to cut you loose.  Your blood is not on my hands, and I can say before God that I am without guilt with regard to my responsibility in righting the wrongs of George's house, which I served for 17 years.

Brent Tr0ckman

Luke Robinson...get a life!  Stop sticking up for sinful people like George and Tim.  If you don't like the content of this bulletin board, then why don't you follow your own advice? :-*

Luke----

"If the blind lead the blind they will both fall into the
ditch". The Lord made that statement. I think it could apply here. You would have to be blind to stand up for George or anyone else in Leadership in Fullerton. George was excommunicated. You don't get excommunicated for a minor offense. The leadership doesn't "step down" for a minor offense. And the man who was excommunicated refuses to repent--and continues to teach in whatever small capacity that is. This is a blind man--he refuses to "see" what he has done to others and own up to it. Those who continue to follow him or stick up for him in his present state are blind men also. Will you continue to blindly follow a blind man? Jesus tells you where you'll wind up---in a ditch.


--Joe

Dear Everyone,

Well, I'll be--!!  I sure pressed the right buttons with that last post.  ;D

Dear Brent,

You are such a nice man.  I only regret of how little you know about me.  But if you keep shooting around in the dark, maybe you'll find me eventually.  I knew that it would come to this.  Value judgements and personal judgements that you constantly throw into the mix, make a lovely garnish to this argument.  I respect you very much, Mr. Tr0ckman.  I only hope that one day that you will just be able to contemplate what I say and stop trying to visualize who I am just from the post that I put on this website.
Everyone talks big on this website.  It is so much easier to talk on a website with strong words.  Am I wrong?  

I do not call this website the Salem Witch Trials.  Haven't we talked about this before?  Are you putting words in my mouth?

You also said,"spent your whole life up to date in the Assembly of George Geftakys".  Oh really?  You should be a detective.  Wow!  You know me better than I know myself.  

Brent, I respect you very much, but personal comments will not get your argument very high off the ground.  Maybe some day, I will turn the light on, as to who I am and what has happened over the past few weeks.  But until you can stop making everything personal and assume, then you will have to shoot around in the dark on your own.

Dear Verne,

Those silly, silly Robinson boys.  They are so arrogant.

Those shots in the dark bring a nice touch to the argument.  Ah, so I am ignorantly and arrogantly rambling.  Hmm.  Thank you for your time.  Thank you for excusing my sorry self.  Where would I be without my post being excused?  Lost?  No.

Mr. Carty, you do not know me.  Maybe someday we will meet and we can put all your assumptions to rest.  But until then, please stop with the value judgments.  And I don't need you to excuse me.  I made a valid point of which you cannot deny.  But thanks anyway.

Dear Eulalah,
 
Do you have a life?  You seem to be more attached to this thing than I am.  If you can't learn to let things go, then you will be attached to this website for years to come.  I have a life.  It is in Jesus Christ.  The author and finisher of my faith.

Dear Everyone(including those last three people),

I am not sticking up for Tim Geftakys.  I don't know if he is guilty or innocent.  But I am defending the word of God, and the way that you have already "proved" his guilt simply because you don't like him makes me sick.  I am defending fairness, and you folks seem to have no idea what it means.  You folks who seem to never tire of value judgments and age judgments need to grow up.  Maybe you do have evidence, maybe you don't.  But don't start a huge thread about his guilt until everything is absolutely correct and truthful.

I will tell you one thing.  Tim's preaching has done more for me and others that your squabbling and arguing could ever do.  Thanks for your time.

A Brother in Christ,

Luke Robinson

Dear Everyone,

Well, I came upon this.  Thought everyone might like it.   ;D

"By the authority of Almighty God, Son and Holy Ghost; and of the Holy Canons, and of the undefiled Virgin Mary, mother and nurse of our Savior; and of the celestial virtues, angelys, archangels, thrones, dominions, powers, cherubims, and seraphims; and of all the holy patriarchs and prophets; and of the apostles and evangelists; and of the holy innocents, who, in the sight of the Holy Lamb, are found worthy to sing the new song; and of the holy martyrs and holy confessors, and of the holy virgins, and of the saints, together with all the holy and elect of God: we excommunicate and anathematize him, and from the threshold of the holy church of God Almighty we sequester him, that he may be tormented in eternal excruciating suffering, together with Dathan and Abiram, and those who say to the Lord God,'Depart from us; we desire none of thy ways.'  And as fire is quenched by water, so let the light of him be put out forever more.  May the Son who suffered with us, curse him.  May the Father, who created man, curse him.  May the Holy Ghost, which was given to us in our baptism, curse him.  May the Holy Cross which Christ, for our salvation, triumphed over his enemies, ascended, curse him.  May the Holy and eternal Virgin Mary, mother of God, curse him.  May St. Michael the advocate of holy souls, curse him.  May all the angels and archangels, principalities and powers, and all the heavenly armies, curse him.  May St. John the Baptist, and St. Andrew, and all other Christ's apostles, together curse him, and may the rest of his disciples and four Evangelists, who by their preaching converted the universal world,--and may the hold and wonderful company of martyrs and confessors, who by their holy work are found pleasing to God Almighty,--curse him.  May the Choir of the Holy Virgins, who for the honor of Christ have despised the things of this world, damn him.  May all the sainst who from the beginning of the world, and everlasting ages are found to be beloved of God, damn him.  May the heavens and the earth, and all things remaining therein, damn him.

May he be damned wherever he may be; whether in the house or in the field, whether in the highway or in the byway, whether in the wood or in the water, or whether in the church.  May he be cursed in living and dying, in eating and drinking, in fasting and thirsting, in slumbering and sleeping, in watching or walking, in standing or sitting, in lying down or walking mingendo cancando, and in all blood-letting.  May he be cursed in all the faculties of his body.  May he be cursed inwardly and outwardly.  May he be cursed in his hair.  May he be cursed in his brain.  May he be cursed in the crown of his head and in his temples.  In his forehead and in his ears.  In his eyebrows and in his cheeks.  In his jaw-bones and his nostrils.  In his foreteeth and in his grinders.  In his lips and in his throat.  In his shoulders and his wrists.  In his arms, his hands, and his fingers.  May he be damned in his mouth, in his breast, in his heart, and in all the viscera of his body.  May he be damned in his veins and in his groin; in his thighs; in his hips and in his knees; in his legs, feet, and toe-nails.

May he be cursed in all the joints and articulations of his body.  From the top of his head to the sole of his foot may there be no soundness in him.  May the Son of the living God, with all the power of His Majesty, curse him; and may heaven, with all the powers that move therein, rise up against him---curse him and damn him!  Amen.  So let it be!  Amen."

Well, I'd hate to be in his shoes.  ;D

This was the excommunication of Victor Emmanuel II by Pope Pius IX around the mid-1800's.  Quite lovely, isn't it?  
If I keep writing "ignorant and arrogant" statements, can I expect the same?   ;D  ;D

A Brother in Christ,

Luke Robinson

Thank you, Mr. Carty.  You're too kind.  I guess one good public spanking deserves another.  But I don't mind.  It won't hurt me.   ;D

A Brother in Christ,

Luke Robinson

By the way, Mr. Carty, you seem to be repeating yourself.

Hey Luke!
  I guess you were trying to inject humor or sarcasm by your posting of the Papal curse, but it is really not something to joke about. (I'm not Roman Catholic, but God does judge; and though the curse is muddled, the general concept of being under God's curse is not funny).
  Verne mentioned, at one point, that we should all remember how it is God Himself, not our posting, that has brought all the recent events to the forefront.
  To respond to these events like it is some kind of movement of angry bitter souls trying to seek revenge is to not be alert to the possibility that God could be trying to say something Re. GG and the ministry that he headed up.
  That facts that have been revealed are pretty clear:
1.) GG is an unrepetant immoral man.
2.) GG perverted the teaching of the Gospel and the church.
3.) GG was a controlling and abusive man.
    More could be added to the list, but just one of these is enough to fall into the category of very severe judgment from God Himself!!
    I would not be joking about such things, or carelessly defending such individuals, lest you be a partaker with them in their sins! (and consequently their judgment!)
                                God Bless,  Mark

Dear Mark,

Again, you have taken my posts the wrong way.  I respect you very much.  But what you are talking about is not right.

Did you read all of my past posts?!  I said I am not defending them, but I am defending truth, fairness, and the Word of God.  I am not being careless.

Also, who is talking about George?  I know he was wrong.  But we are talking about Tim.  And we are going too far with our wild judgments.

I thought the Papal Curse was quite humorous.  Seeing that the Catholic Church has wrong teachings that go against everything in Christianity and the Bible.  

You are putting words in my mouth with the following sentence:

"To respond to these events like it is some kind of movement of angry bitter souls trying to seek revenge is to not be alert to the possibility that God could be trying to say something Re. GG and the ministry that he headed up."

This is not what I have been saying at all.  But everyone is jumping the gun and jumping to conclusions about the private lives of men that they know very little about.  We have too many detectives here.

A Brother in Christ,

Luke Robinson

Dear Verne,

Did you mean ill bred or "sour dough bread?"  

Actually, I was carried by a stork and raised by a pack of hyenas.  Bye for now.  I have a wild zebra to catch.  Plus, I am a little worried about the edicts from the council of Trent.

A Brother in Christ,

Luke Robinson

To All:

Please re-read all of what Luke is saying (I'll try to do the same).  I haven't seen him defending GG or TG or any sinful behaviors.  Only standing up for what he knows about his own life & the church in his community, which may be SIMILAR to other places or assemblies, but ARE NOT rubber stamps of Fullerton.  Please don't make that assumption.

Chuck

VC,

Don't read too much into Luke's typing.  We all make tyyyping mistakes & leave out words.  Check your own typing to validate this.  I wish you did know Luke face to face.  You wouldn't say what you are saying, but he might not say what he's saying too.

CB

Think or judge as you will....

Dear Mr. Carty,

I did not mean it as a racial thing.  If it is all the same to you, I switched it to "are".  But it does provide a nice distraction from the previous argument, doesn't it?  You have taken ONE word out of everything I have said and used it as a platform to promote me as a Grade A bigot and racist.  Wow.  That is the first time I have been called that.

You are only proving my point.  You are assuming way too much and it is quite sad.  I really can't believe that I am being called that by someone proclaiming to be a Christian!  

So this is the beginning of my public spanking.  Wow.  Your arguments make no sense whatsoever.  You are using one word to obliterate everything I have said.  My parents know I am not a racist.  My friends know I am not a racist.  Only you, who have never met me, are now suddenly jumping to such drastic conclusions.

If I can expect further arguments displaying that you know me better than I know myself, than I am done talking with you, my friend.  

Did you read any of my posts or am I just talking to myself?  Now I am expected to defend myself against something so preposturous and rediculous that just boggles my mind.  This is absolutely ludicrous and shameful.

A Brother in Christ,

Luke Robinson

GREETINGS RETREAD:

You are right. Putting those 2 comments on the same post you referred to is definitely inconsistent and I modified accordingly.

Give me your input if you've got more to say regarding....

Sebastian Andrew

Does this mean that we as Christians cannot call members of the KKK racist/bigots??

Sebastian,

I have sent you a PM, of what I can say regarding this.

Retread

No serious person on this BB thought for a minute that I was truly offended by Luke’s post. The exchange between us was intended to highlight a simple fact- a deeply embedded symptom of assemblyism is the inability to acknowledge and address offences. Look at his lengthy indignant protest. The proper response was “sorry Verne, I did not mean to offend you, and I certainly was not mocking Black speech” That’s it!
This should bring us to an understanding of the frightful condition of George Geftakys today as well as an appreciation of the most deadly feature of his influence in the assemblies. The severest curse of God on man is withholding the gift of repentance.
The lesson is over Luke…sorry about the brutal way I made this point.
Your brother in Christ,
Verne

Dear Verne,

Nice save!  ;D

Only one lesson has been learned.  You haven't listened to a single thing I have said except for the word "be."

It was a low blow.  Better luck next time.

A Brother in Christ,

Luke Robinson

Luke,
Please be specific.  The only "I heard that so-and-so..." type statements I've heard here are in the form of questions.  And those are usually either confirmed or debunked quickly.

Now, there are all kinds on this forum, some who are enjoying close fellowship with Christ and some who are struggling in their relationship with Him; some who are very angry and maybe don't honor Christ in their vitriole and others who are very angry yet sin not.  In the midst of it all, Luke, there are two wonderful things happening...
- Many of the wounded are experiencing healing and restoration.
- Many of the perpetrators are being brought to repentance and healing or, if not, cut off so that they may no longer harm the sheep.

Like Brent, two months ago when I called George Geftakys a wicked man, I was villified by those more "spiritual" than I.  They were wrong.  Now most of them are seeing the depths of the error into which the Geftakys system had plunged.  Whether you see it or not, we've all been affected.  By far, the huge majority of the charges made have proven true.  It has been no "witch hunt"!

Luke, you have no idea the depth of the injury inflicted on many in the name of "this ministry".  Have you even read the stories on the GA.com site by Rachel, by Bill & Joyce Hines, by Brinda McCumber, by Kirk Cesaretti, by Steve & Margaret Irons?  Face it, while some of you youngsters have of late been enjoying Teen Teams, teen conferences and rock climbing, many have been shunned and abused by the some of the same ones who you have revered.  It is not the love of God to allow men to continue in there evil deeds.

By-the-way, Luke, how much time have you spent on this site in the Bible forum? or, in the quotes?  Think about it.

Tim Souther

Dear Tim,

I have been reading everything.  I have read all of the articles and testimonies.

I have read the majority of the things on this website.  Don't get me wrong.  Of course, if these men are doing wrong things, then out with it!  Let it be known.  But if they aren't...and we start assuming too much...then the fault is on us.

Yes I have revered these men for all the good things that they have taught to me, just like I revere my father, and many others, which on their own, sought the Lord, and I get to share in the things that they have learned.

They might have committed some dreadful deeds but I am still grateful.

I am not blind and I am not deaf.  I am getting older and I am seeing more and more things.  And I learn.  

A Brother in Christ,

Luke Robinson

Now where were we...before we got distracted?

Oh yeah!  Character assassinations!   ;D

Some are not so grateful.

Yes, dreadful deeds...dreadful.

but, what?

Luke, et al,

     When you have learned good things form men who have done dreadful deeds and you are grateful, be sure that your gratitude is well-placed.  

     Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, coming down from the Father of lights, with whom can be no variation, neither shadow that is cast by turning.
(James 1:17)  There is only ONE source of blessing.

     In our flesh dwells NOTHING good, so if you receive something from a man and it blesses you, it is because that man was used by God as a vessel.

     i am not saying that we shouldn't appreciate, even thank, the vessel, but our gratitude is always due to God.

     Being used as God's vessel is no protection against error.  The bible is replete with examples of God's men who failed.  Even after serving him for years, some failed horribly.  We must be on guard, both  to keep ourselves close to the Lord, and to honor no one for his record alone, but for his present testimony of God in his life.

     If a man's character has become corrupt, naming his
sin(s) is not character assassination but, sadly, a necessary responsibility.

     We must keep close accounts with God.  i learned that listening to George Geftakys.  That he failed as an example of the precept is sad, but in no way negates the truth of it.

For the love of God,
brother al

Well Master Luke-any wiser? Although your brother suffers from some of the same assemblyisms, I get the distinct impression that he is made of sterner stuff than you; perhaps he can teach you a thing or two...
Verne
p.s. wipe the tearful blubber off your face and play the man...low blow indeed! You made it too easy...

Luke:
Have you noticed how many of the rotten people on this BB are patiently trying to reason with you? Any of them successful so far...? Proverbs 26:4,5
Verne

Dear Mr. Hartman,

Thank you for that last post.  You're absolutely correct.

Wow!!  Lesson number 2!  This is so exciting.   ;D

Ok, so first it's racism, then it's assembly and brother comparison.  You've shown your cards.  But maybe you might have an ace up your sleeve.  Who knows?

Dear Luke,
  I apologize for not following fully your arguments.  I now understand that you are dealing with Tim and not GG.  I only read and post on weekends, as I'm travelling during the week.
  I appreciate your respect and I hope that you would have similar respect for the others who have been concerned with your posts on this BB.  Please try to humbly receive what these very wise individuals have tried to tell you.
   Though I directed my previous post to the subject of GG, and not any of his subordinates, it is very difficult to separate individuals from the system that they were involved with.  God judges individuals, as well as churches,(see Rev. and churches of Asia), but it is the Geftakys church that I was talking about here.
 The exalted Christ takes the above mentioned Churches to task as a group (a system, if you will).  The Lord is attempting to deal with "group" sin,  to gain an acknowledgment of same, and to get a turning from it.
  The problem, in my opinion, with the Assemblies now is the danger of only a partial acceptance of God's entreaty to the Christians who are trying to keep the group going.  In other words, suggesting that GG is evil, but many of his teachings and practices were from God (an oxymoron, in my opinion).
   Some defenders of the system have taken on a defense lawyer stance of requiring that those calling for a full repentance (2.Cor.7) to provide specific accusations of personal culpability (there are those still clinging to such legal defenses for GG in that his "trial" was not conducted correctly).  These above legal stances are not how God deals with "systems" that are out of His will; churches are called upon to acknowledge that God sees clearly what the issues are, and our part is to humbly and fully respond to His entreaties.
   I don't know where Tim's heart is, but it doesn't change the fact that he should step down as a leader.  He needs to understand that the Assembly system is under God's judgment and needs to receive instruction as to why that's the case.  There is no need to prove Tim has personal sin to repent of even if he is sincere, for he is sincerely wrong re. his involvement in the Assembly system.  
  Tim needs to go to God himself to purchase the, "gold refined in fire" (Rev. 3:18).  Why purchase it?  There will be a personal cost to gain clarity and true wealth with God.  The cost is one of losing position and power; one of losing all the years of emotional investment in the group, but it will lead to a blessed end.  You can never go wrong with humility.
   All these ex-leaders need to sit in a pew and learn from someone else re. the true nature of the Gospel and Christian relationships, regardless of the degree of their personal culpability as sinners.
                           God Bless,  Mark  

Dear Mr. Campbell,

Thank you for your post.  You have clarified a few things, and I totally agree with you on all your points.  

Dear Mr. Carty,

The thing is, i opened the arena.  But you started a whole new one and dared me to come in.  Your gladiator games are inspiring.

You didn't open the arena. Gracetruth did.

Dear Luke.
  Thank you for your gracious response.  My prayer is Tim, and other would be Assembly restorationists, would also agree.
  Vern,
  Thank you very much for your kindness.  Like everyone, sometimes I lose it and can get pretty angry and cynical.  It is impossible for me to separate my strong emotions from my thoughts in re. to the Assembly.  It's probably a good thing that I don't spend that much time on the BB, as it can accelerate my heart beat at times.
   As I've said before, being pollyannish or indifferent to Assembly abuses is the opposite of the love we are commanded to show our brethren.  When others try to mitigate a full repentance it may call for a strong word of rebuke, from time to time.  There will come a time when maybe we will have to stop our entreaty here, but God never stops seeking those he loves.
 Praise God for both His Truth and His Mercy!  Mark

Mark,
You may be "only a truck driver" but I think God is using you in and amazing way on this board to get down to the real issues and communicate them clearly.  I will refer to the above referred-to post when I want to communicate my feelings/thoughts to others, especially to ones on the fence or on the "assembly" side of the fence.

Luke and others (like Rebecca D.) - Read and re-read that post and take heed to what this wise brother is saying and how he is saying it.  His concern, like mine, Verne's, Al's, et al is born in the love of Christ for souls, that each one (including Tim G., Mike Z., George G., ...) might come to full realization and repentance and restoration in the grace and liberty of God.

Tim Souther

Thanks Tim,
  Some e-mail's I've received recently would suggest that I am in over my head in giving advice to our good Assembly friends ;).  The last thing we need is experts telling us how to live the Christian life, and I do fear sometimes the danger of "pontificating" in my posts'.  
   I feel like the rewards outweigh the risks, if it is helpful to those who we are trying to reach.  I also constantly think of the poor souls "who were left for dead" by the Assembly and could be helped by seeing that God is different from the performance demanding one taught in the Assembly.
  One good thing about long lonely hours of trucking and that is you are given time to think; lately my thoughts have been on God and Assembly issues.
   Are you the same Tim from Springfield who backed into our brick wall in Granda Hills, CA.? M. Miller was living with us then.        God Bless,  Mark
 P.S. I'm not bitter, just wondering if I have the right Tim ;).

Hi folks,

In thinking of "assembly restorationists" it helps me to realize that there are two separate issues here.

One is the many acts of moral evil commited by people involved in the assemblies as they functioned in the system.  Many of us are guilty here.  Some of us have repented and have tried to make what amends we can, although there is no way to call back harsh words or bad treatment of our bretheren.

The other issue is the Plymouth Brethren ideas on church polity that George Geftakys taught us all.  Many of the "restorationists" still believe that these teachings are valid and would vigorously argue to uphold them if you asked them TODAY.   They see no reason to "repent" of this and wish to continue in the "heavenly pattern" in their fellowship with other believers.

I departed from Brethrenism many years ago for reasons I feel are Biblically valid.  However, the exclusivism of GG's assemblies has prevented them from even knowing about good arguements against their ideas.  I think that those who open up and actually associate with the Body of Christ
will begin to see the problems with their beliefs.

Those who keep their heads in the Brethren "sand", won't.

BUT, we need to remember that men need to repent of MORAL EVIL, not arranging the chairs in a circle.  There is a difference between evil and error.

God bless,
Thomas Maddux

Hi Tom!
  It's interesting that you should bring up that point because this last week I ran into a couple of "brethren" who run a Christian camp.  They gave me their magazine and we talked for a bit.
  Very dear men who displayed tremendous humility as we discussed the issue of ecclesiology.  They did not understand the concept of "heavenly pattern" as the Assembly did.  They also were very aware that there is something wrong in the Brethren Assemblies as they are losing their youth.
  Their problem, as they explained it, is their focus on a system, instead of focusing on the love of Christ.
   When I previously mentioned a "system" of error I was not referring to the pattern of meetings.  The system I was trying to define was the toxic system of teaching and practice that led to control and abuse.  Such words/phrases as, hypocrisy, nicolaitism, elitism, arrogance, dishonesty and beating the sheep are in line with the kind of systemized error that I was referring to.
   As you well know, (having received some of the above.) this kind of sin was placed within a contrived method of government that GG headed up and controlled via his Workers and Leading Bros.  It wouldn't matter if this evil system were in a Baptist church or a plymouth brethren church it would still operate as an evil system of control and abuse.
   Some of the controls were not spoken about, or in some cases were even denied, but nonetheless they were active and operated in a very systematic way. To those interested, please read, "The Subtle Power Of Spiritual Abuse" which was written re. just regular evangelical churches on the corner.  The book shows how the evil system can operate in a very subtle, but effective way to damage souls in it's power.
  My point is that individual moral sin can spread into a group (especially when the leader promotes his heretical views) and operate in such a way that the Lord comes to the entire church group and asks for an acknowledgment of the evil system, a full confession of sin re. it, and a full repentance from it.  If this is not the case what is happening in Rev. 2 thru 3 ?  What does he mean by removing the lampstand of these groups?  He certainly is not revoking salvation for individuals in the group.  He never seems to be concerned with their "pattern" of meeting, but more with their pattern of "good works".
                             God Bless, Mark

Dear Verne,

Thank you very much for your apology.  I am sorry I got so offended at that, but it made me quite angry that you would call me that.  But it is all good.  God bless you.  I will try to be more agreeable in the future, brother.

A Brother in Christ,

Luke Robinson

Dear Tim,

I totally understand your concern and others because I share it.  

Yes, I admire you all for how you have been willing to bring to light many things in that past months.  And I am grateful that God has done this work.

But make sure that you are directly on target.  And to not overstep in your judgment.

A Brother in Christ,

Luke Robinson    

Hello Everyone!

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Mark Sjogren and Mike Zach are pursuing reconciliation with everyone and anyone that they have sinned against, they are repenting, seeking forgiveness - and, that includes my wife Ann who is one of the nine Miller children (Pat Mathews, Nancy Lehmkuhl, Becky Cohen, Chris Sjogren, Mike Miller).  The Miller family was split up by the Assembly 25 years ago.  Ann received gracious letters from both Mark and Mike.  And, yes, she does forgive them!  

Reconciliation is happening with Jon Legran and his family and wonderful things are happening between my father-in-law Chuck Miller and Mike Zach as well as Mark Sjogren.

I have heard from a witness that Mike Zach asked John Malone forgive him!  Face-to-face!  Praise God!  I do believe in miracles.  But more!  John Malone said that he forgives Mike Zach!  Miracles!

God Bless You Mike Zach!  Mark Sjogren I see the Lord alive and working in you!  A Tsumani of grace!

Our family is realizing a dream come true!  Tragedy has turned into rejoicing!

It's grace people - Amazing Grace! ...This is Christianity!  This is Jesus at work.

Chuck Vanasse
chuck@vanant.com

Hello everyone

I am going to post a couple of articles on Brethren (PB) Introspection on the GA.com website.  I think, in light of some of the recent posts, that you will be interested in knowing what some of the PB have to say about their predicament.  (The plain fact that their "pattern," is more representative of a dying vine than the True Vine.)

Brent

Brent,

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When you say "their pattern" are you referring to a "Plymouth Brethren" pattern or the assembly pattern...?

Just wondering...

I met my wife Ann in an "abusive" brethren type church..."Great Commission International."  It's also in Enron's book, chapter 11, same chapter as the GG's Assembly - their George was a man named Jim McCotter.  They were slightly less abusive, where the assembly emphasized "the gathering and the Lord's supper...GG's heavenly system, et.al." GCI emphasized evangelism and "Go therefore!"  It was Jesus + The Great Commission.

After we left GCI, for years we wandered through lots of traditional churches, yet deeply desired to get back to our simple home meetings from GCI.  And, only in the last two years have we come back to a "PB" type of orientation.  And, hey, we love it!  The home church is not only good for China, and for the Third World - It's good for us believers right here in America, too!  

My life is no longer Jesus + Church = Righteousness...No, today we simply meet in a way that looks like a Brethren way. Why? It's an easy way to meet Jesus - to know Him when we gather.  The home and simplicity in meeting lends itself to not being anonymous, for the use of gifts, and an easy environment for edification.  And, more!  Real discipleship and organic growth easily happens around a Acts 2:42 meeting - with the home as its true nerve center.

Is this the ONLY way? No! No! No!  However, is it a terrific context for meeting, worshipping and learning? - Absolutely!  Why, does it work so well...Cause it's simple, elegant, straightforward, and efficient.  I think it's a great way to "imitate" the Apostle Paul.

We have a home church, no paid pastors, no morgage, shared ministry responsibility...However, a church unlike you EVER had in the assembly - we have lots of liberty - Just the structure of following/waiting on the Holy Spirit as our guide.  You know what I love is the periodic, dignified silence...Quiet and waiting on the Spirit's unction.  The Lord is wonderful - He prepares a different and unique feast for us everytime we meet.  The ladies bring the food, the men bring the Word, everyone sings, fellowships, breaks bread and prays (no door keepers).  Sometimes our meetings are 90 minutes, sometimes it's five hours!  The Lord always has something that surprises us!  Like the wind we don't know where it comes from or where it is going...

So, what am I saying?  We need to be careful not to throw the baby out with the bath water.  I think the tendency is that when we have had a bad experience we rush to discard everything that was ever familiar to us in our abuse. Actually I can't blame anyone who's come out of the assembly for this...However, I want to caution everyone - You may find yourself wandering around for perhaps years in looking for the right church.  

However, as a guy who left a nice context of "the simplicity and purity of devotion to Christ" because of some immature and abusive leadership and then wandered for 17 years via many forms of "church" -  Willow Creek type churches, EPC, Evangelical Free, Seeker Friendly churches, Baptist churches, various pentocostal, AOG churches, independent churches...You name it!  Seventeen years of a spiritual schmorgasbord.

What can I say...It is WONDERFUL! to be gathering in a unpretentious, simple manner, again...Without the abuse!

I don't think you assembly folks ever saw this side of the PB form of gathering.  The two times I visited your gatherings it struck me so much like my old Roman Catholic masses.  My wife agrees, since she's done both - was a Catholic and was a part of the assembly and participated with me in my wanderings...I kept waiting for the Latin and the incense...So, religious.  The assembly was PB with a double-dousing of Galatianism, wrapped in formalism with a bow of hypocrisy and yucky judgement for good-looks..

What I had hoped for was to get back to a simple gathering...What my wife and I had missed before in the 70s and early 80s in our past abusive church experience was trying to "add" things to Jesus and that's when things got warped.  And, people, this is not limited to PB type churches!  A Brethren orientation does indeed lend itself to serious errors.  This is true since people generally take the Bible seriously in such intimate gatherings that the PBs are famous for...Don't let this fact take you by surprise - commitment has many slippery downsides.  Commitment and youth are a dangerous brew.  But, don't "dis" simplicity and commitment.  That's a woeful mistake.

"PB like" gatherings shouldn't be dysfunctional...George Mueller, Jim Elliott, and one of Christianity's ultimate examples Anthony Norris Groves (my particular hero of faith)...all were associated with Plymouth Brethren forms of gathering and church.  By the Way, A.N. Groves in the 1830s was the earliest protaganist of the very first Brethren principles (he said he was just trying to imitate Paul since the scriptures encouraged him to do so).  It should also be noted that A.N. Groves fellowshipped with, gathered with, worshipped with and labored with every type of believer. Christ in a man was Groves basis of fellowship and unity with a man; in contrast to a sectarian distance from a man based on the man's missing principles or immaturity.

If anyone emails me, I will happily direct them to the publisher of the Biography of A.N. Groves by G.H. Lang - Especially for anyone who would like to understand the man who was the spiritual father and example for George Mueller - A.N. Groves was actually his brother-in-law.

Also, the Assembly had a heritage from the darkside of Brethrenism....The Exclusives.  And, George Geftakys was the worse Exclusive PB I have ever seen!  J.N. Darby, the famous, and brilliant, 19th century heretic was the original Exclusive...The father of Exclusives.

The "Open" Brethren were oriented totally different. Totally! They were as lovely as the Exclusives were ugly.  Mueller was of the Open Brethren...The heritage of the Open PBs is quite glorious.  The overwhelming majority of 19th Century missionaries were Open Plymouth Brethren.  Hudson Taylor was heavily influenced by the Brethren's "Let God provide" mission philosophy and he himself spent many years gathering with the PBs around the globe.  

As all you ex-assembly folk begin your new pilgrimages to find a new church home...Remember your final destination may be right under your nose.

God Bless and fair travels!

Chuck Vanasse
chuck@vanant.com

      Today, right here on this page, has been my most encouraging experience on this BB to date!!!

     Behold, how good and how pleasant it is for brethren to dwell together in unity!

al

Dear Chuck

You know, dear bro, that I am not throwing the baby out in the wash.  Thanks for clearing that up for everyone else, I can see how you might read that in to my last post.

I agree with you, as the Tr0ckmans are doing the same thing you so eloquently mention below, except that we call it home church, and we do it as part of Calvary Chapel SLO.  What is funny, is that about half the group does not attend Calvay Chapel, but several other churches.  There are a few that come where our home group is their only Christian fellowship.

Anyway,  I agree with your last post, wholeheartedly.  The only thing I might add is that most ex-assembly folk should NOT ruch into that, until they are well over Geftakysism.  New Wine yes, Old Wineskin, NO!!!

Check the main page of GA.com for a "Brethren" article.

Brent

I agree!  Folks need to walk around the block and see what there is to see...Being free is a wonderful thing.  My 17 year sojourn did me a lot of good.  Most ex-assembly people need to get under some healthy-teaching for awhile and to be a "passive-observer" ...Enjoy receiving some ministry with no pressure to perform ...Or, even show-up!  Cool, huh?

You know, it wouldn't be a bad idea for the ex-assembly folks to take a few Sundays off.

Grace can be pretty great!

Chuck,

You wrote"

"Also, the Assembly had a heritage from the darkside of Brethrenism....The Exclusives.  And, George Geftakys was the worse Exclusive PB I have ever seen!  J.N. Darby, the famous, and brilliant, 19th century heretic was the original Exclusive...The father of Exclusives."


Chuck, you are mistaken here.  I used to fellowship at Shadow Hills Bible Chapel and knew the brothers at Canoga Park Bible Chapel.  These were PB assemblies in the "circle of fellowship" that included Grace Bible Chapel in Fullerton where GG fellowshipped for many years.  GG used to itinerate among these assemblies.  

The author Dave Hunt fellowshipped at the Canoga Park assembly until he became a Charismatic and tried to share it among the PB's.  They squeezed him out, but many followed him.  Some from Shadow Hills did the same.

These were definitely Open assemblies.  They were in the group that publishes "Letters of Interest", a news magazine of the Open Brethren.

Once I visited an Exclusive assembly.  It was REALLY wierd.
Their "Gospel Hall" was square, except for a sort of notch in one side with about 6 chairs in it.  This was the "tabernacle of the unlearned".  

We were told to sit there, not in words, they just pointed to those seats when we came in.  Needless to say we weren't allowed to touch the bread or wine.

They never spoke to us.  Not a word.  Just pointed.  After the meeting we went outside where they were and stood for a few minutes.  They talked to each other, but not to us.

I wonder why their numbers are dwindling?

Anyway, the practices at the GG assemblies were more or less similar to the Open meetings.  But no doubt about it, GG took the idea of exclusiveness to new heights.  It was his version though.

One really important reason the PB's have declined so much is that it has become a very middle class movement.  In its early days most of the leaders were upper class Englishmen, Scots, and Northern Irish.  They had excellent British Public school educations.  They could read and translate Latin and Greek by the time they finished High School.  Many were wealthy and could pursue educational goals that qualified them to become real scholars.  That is why they made such a mark in the early days.

There was a very high quality of leadership in the PB's in those days.  This is only one factor, but it was a very important one.

God bless,

Thomas Maddux

Luke,

You asked if I have a life?  Yes I do.  I don't live for this bulletin board.  I live for God.  It seems to me that you are far more wrapped up in this bulletin board than I am.  You seem to enjoy starting arguments on the same bulletin board that you condemn.  Again I ask you: why don't you follow your own advice?  Don't use this bb any longer if it stumbles you.  Don't worry about our lives and how we should be spending them.  You need to worry about your own life.  I think you must be a lonely individual who needs attention.

Dear Eulaha,

First off, this website does not stumble me.  But according to you, it DOES stumble me.  Well, to each his(or her) own.

Secondly, I am not worrying about you or anyone else on this website.  I believe that you are a fully capable human being who can make decisions on your own with Godly wisdom.

Well, in no way do I mean to start arguments.  I have asked people to think a little bit more before jumping to conclusions about the private lives of individuals.  If an argument gets started by that, it is not my problem.  It is those who will not ponder what I have to say, but only brush me off as a "young laddie" or call me arrogant and ignorant, without ever meeting me before in their entire lives.  

So we are talking about worry here.  I see.  I see that most people can't stop worrying how the assembly has been run by a supposedly Jim Jones wannabe(which I disagree with).   ;D  And I see that many people that have left, are constantly worrying themselves and berating those that are still involved in a local assembly, telling them that they are utterly decieved, and they need to break up faster than New Kids on the Block.   ;D  Look, as I said before, I can see that you are a responsible individual who can make her own decisions by God's wisdom.  Well, so can these people.  I have faith that God will lead them.

I don't condemn this forum.  It is an inanimate object with no mind of its own.  I don't condemn the people that write on this forum.  Most of them are writing with caring hearts.  I don't condemn anything.  But I am giving advice.  Measure twice, saw once.  Don't jump to conclusions about private lives of individuals until you have the facts straight.  And then, proper, Godly judgment can ensue.  

Do I really sound like a lonely individual who needs attention?   ;D

Well, here come the character assassinations, again.   ;D

Please, Ms. L, you do not know me.  And there is little knowledge that you could obtain from words on a website.  You do not see the face behind the words.  And you definetly do not see the heart.  

I am not lonely.  And if I needed attention, I would go somewhere else.  But I do have a point to make(see previous paragraph), so please try and understand me sometimes.  I will do the same for you.  God Bless.

A Brother in Christ,

Luke Robinson  

this is an accurate observation. why do you think this phenomena occurs?

Howdy folks,

Here is a thought that occurred to me many years ago when I was thinking my way out of Brethrenism.

These groups have as their Big Idea the belief that they are supposed do exactly what the New Testament saints did, and that those who don't follow this principle are not fully faithful.  Going beyond what is seen in the Bible is "human innovation".

One problem is that without the human innovations of Christian colleges and publishing houses their groups couldn't exist.

How many modern Christians can read koine Greek, Hebrew, and Aramaic?  Christian colleges are just about the only places you can learn koine Greek.  Classics programs at secular universities generally teach the Attic Greek.

If no one received this training, how would we have Bible translations and study books to use?

So when we were following the misunderstood command to "come ye out from among them", we had to keep going back to get help!

Thomas Maddux

Take my word for it, Luke is not lonely.  He definitely enjoys debate and he is certifiably funny.  You should see his (and some of the other teens from St. Louis) video productions.  Definitely a riot.  ;D ::)

Now that doesn't mean I agree with all of his points.  I think he has spoken from a lack of real understanding of how deeply many have been wounded in the past.  He, like many of the current crop of under 21 (or so) year olds have grown up with somewhat less of the overbearing pressure/abuse that was such a characteristic in the past.  I think relative liberty came about in recent years as certain ones, especially in certain assemblies in the Midwest, began to distance themselves from George's authoritarianism.  I guess I would recommend then, that he and others with his perspective maybe privately contact some of those who they believe are "jumping to conclusions about the private lives of individuals."  That's what I did with one particular individual, and tho' I still don't agree with his manner, I was brought to see in a whole new way.

Tim Southe

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I think one of the big lessons is to glean from where you can.  The edges of the fields are noted for their burrs and sticks.  Ecclesiastes says, "The wise man grasps one thing and will not let go of another, for he who fears God will come forth with both of them."  Hold to the good and run from the bad....Yep, all this applies to the Brethren phenomena.  Commitment is dangerous.  Knowledge is dangerous...PBs excell in both.  Dangerous folk, they are.

Sometimes a little apathy and ignorance ain't so bad...but that's dangerous, too.  If you say, "Oh, I get it" - then you don't.  There is no formula.  There is no Jesus + Church as the answer.  Jesus is the answer period.  He would rather work through the ignorant and foolish who look to him, than folks who reduce godliness to an algorythmn like many PBs do....but, careful now - not so fast - it's not so easy.  You dismiss the Brethren example at your own peril.

It's Jesus, Jesus, Jesus...with our whole mind and if we can learn Greek, Hebrew, and memorize the book of Psalms - Super!  But in reality - The Lord Jesus is simply looking for a few good sheep.

Rejoice In The Lord Always!

Chuck Vanasse
chuck@vanant.com

Dear Tim Souther,

Thank you for answering my posts.  Sorry, I didn't really think of writing people personally about this issue, but I will remember to do so in the future.

And I am sincerely sorry if I sound indifferent in my posts.  By God's grace, I will never try to overlook someone's suffering again.

Yes, I think the St. Louis assembly somewhat broke away from the strictness of George a while ago, but there were still a lot of pressure points that would wear on people, causing them to want to leave.  But God is good.  And He is doing a great work.  Thanks again, Mr. Souther.

A Brother in Christ,

Luke Robinson

Well, well, well...what do we have here???  I haven't been here for a while but it looks like you're all enjoying yourselves...

Luke may not like to start arguments, but I'm not going to lie...I LOVE starting arguments...I could do that all day...but I'll let Luke fight his own battle here...bye for now...

VerneFan....riiiiiiiight...

P.S.  I think this was my most innocent post-to-date...don't I get some POSITIVE attitude points for that????

Well, I could say that flowers are nice and everyone would agree with me.  

But controversial issues come up and they should be discussed no matter how the hecklers start holding down the bad attitude button.  Write, folks.  Don't just press the bad button.  Tell me WHY you've pressed it.

You're right, Paul.  I don't need you to fight my battles.  You're better for hitting below the belt in the mud pit.  When I need you, I'll call for you.   ;D  

Yes and I think your dad (one of my favorite brothers of all time) was a good example of that.  Even so, it is my opinion that there undoubtedly remain vestiges of Geftakysism even there that need to be rooted out.  Hopefully there will be an increasing association with other evangelical groups.  All of us need our horizons broadened.

PS - I was kind of hoping you'd make it up here last night or the night before at the Remedy gigs.  :)

Sorry that I didn't make it.  But I do plan on driving up to Springfield sometime in the near future.  It would be a neat experience to be reunited with my brothers and sisters.  God Bless.

Didn’t read all the posts here. Just to long. But if I see GG any time soon I’ll throw the first stone sin or not.


It’s a joke guys ;)

He who is without sin among you, let him cast the first stone at George Geftakys
This was said by Jesus when he brought a Pharasee in his midst who was being unjustly condemned by the blind beggers in the area.  Whenever I read this passage, I find within myself a renewed, gentle, compassion for strong, authoritarian, religious leaders just like Jesus had.

Ya Dave I know the story. Grew up on it. But I’m glad it touches you. Didn’t mean to offend.

Sammy:  You didn't offend at all.  Sorry if I gave that impression.  This is the first time I saw this thread and that was my toungue in cheek response to the title.  I wasn't responding to anything said afterwards.

Good to know Dave. And my post about casting the first stone was the first thing that popped  into my head. Glad I didn’t offend. It just the mental image I get of a big rock hitting GG in the stomach and him finally having all that hot air knocked out of him that makes me chuckle.  ;D

"He who is without sin among you,  let him cast the first stone at George Geftakys"

"George!!! Wait, George!! Put down that granite boomerang, you could hurt someone!!"

lol ;D