On the Topic of Evil in Leadership!!!!

[vernecarty]

Dave and Verne,

  The reason that you are not following how my comments fit into the topic is because I have been gone all week and have just dropped into the conversation without knowing the whole context.

  I am not responding directly to the postings on this thread, rather to emails I recently received that deal with personal responsiblity, and victimization, that have somewhat to do with the discussion here.  I apologize for not being clearer by providing a better context for the posts.

  I agree with both you and Verne that we need to understand our weaknesses and must work against quiet acquiesence in giving into their domination of our lives, but is another thing altogether to put all the burden for being deceived and abused on the victim vs. the victimizer, and it is to this that I speak.

  There are those who believe that GG is not to be blamed at all and all former Assembly members should just admit they were idiots and take responsibility for their following him.  They think that we are all equally sinful in God's eyes and could just as easily fall into the same kind of hypocrisy that GG did. "Just go out and have a beer with George and let him know that you're his friend and he'll come around" my recent emailer suggested.

  Understanding that the Assembly is an evil system is not meant to help us become "bible answer men", or an effort at revenge against GG, rather it allows us to to recover what was lost in that system: my relationship with God,  and my personal dignity and worth as a child of God. (not in God's eyes, but in my own.)

   Jesus and the Apostles (especially Paul) spent a great deal of time talking about deceivers and evil religious pretenders in regard to the damage they can inflict on innocent folks. In Galatians Paul warned that a certain belief system could "separate us from life in Christ."  Paul also warned "the strong" in Romans that they could "destroy" the faith of another brother.

  I do not believe this was talking about the loss of salvation, but the loss of the experience of that life and faith in time and space.  In other words we are saved, but feel like we're in hell!  

  Again, we are mostly sheep like, not soaring predators  , and the means to help former members will probably not include teaching them to "buck-up and get on with their lives" by their own intestinal fortitude.  Some have had their guts kicked in for so long they have no strength left for such self renovation.

  Inner strength is promised via the communication of God's very personal interest and care for the wounded pilgrim.  We should all attempt to be those who offer that cup of cold water, or washing of feet, to these needy souls.  I know that is the desire of  Dave, Verne, Tom, and most who post here, so forgive my tirade against the emailer via this thread.

                                              God Bless,  Mark C.

 


 

Hi Mark! I had no problem at all following your post and in fact was very much in agreement with your perspective.
Critical thinking skills were not what was lacking in those who remained in leadership with George, it was character...
For many of the rank and file, it was probably a combination of ignorance, fear and outright deception. The first and last factors were certainly true in my case. I once thought GG a godly man! (Boy is it liberating to admit that!!  )
This as you indicated is not in any way to simply make us the victims or to excuse the culpability of leaders.
The assembly was not only a proving ground for God's own in my view, (we can after-all look at those who made wise choices), it also presents a marvellous opportunity to learn from the experience and become more the kind of people God would have us to be. Just my two cents...
Verne

[Oscar]

Dave and Verne,

  The reason that you are not following how my comments fit into the topic is because I have been gone all week and have just dropped into the conversation without knowing the whole context.

  I am not responding directly to the postings on this thread, rather to emails I recently received that deal with personal responsiblity, and victimization, that have somewhat to do with the discussion here.  I apologize for not being clearer by providing a better context for the posts.

  I agree with both you and Verne that we need to understand our weaknesses and must work against quiet acquiesence in giving into their domination of our lives, but is another thing altogether to put all the burden for being deceived and abused on the victim vs. the victimizer, and it is to this that I speak.

  There are those who believe that GG is not to be blamed at all and all former Assembly members should just admit they were idiots and take responsibility for their following him.  They think that we are all equally sinful in God's eyes and could just as easily fall into the same kind of hypocrisy that GG did. "Just go out and have a beer with George and let him know that you're his friend and he'll come around" my recent emailer suggested.

  Understanding that the Assembly is an evil system is not meant to help us become "bible answer men", or an effort at revenge against GG, rather it allows us to to recover what was lost in that system: my relationship with God,  and my personal dignity and worth as a child of God. (not in God's eyes, but in my own.)

   Jesus and the Apostles (especially Paul) spent a great deal of time talking about deceivers and evil religious pretenders in regard to the damage they can inflict on innocent folks. In Galatians Paul warned that a certain belief system could "separate us from life in Christ."  Paul also warned "the strong" in Romans that they could "destroy" the faith of another brother.

  I do not believe this was talking about the loss of salvation, but the loss of the experience of that life and faith in time and space.  In other words we are saved, but feel like we're in hell!  

  Again, we are mostly sheep like, not soaring predators  , and the means to help former members will probably not include teaching them to "buck-up and get on with their lives" by their own intestinal fortitude.  Some have had their guts kicked in for so long they have no strength left for such self renovation.

  Inner strength is promised via the communication of God's very personal interest and care for the wounded pilgrim.  We should all attempt to be those who offer that cup of cold water, or washing of feet, to these needy souls.  I know that is the desire of  Dave, Verne, Tom, and most who post here, so forgive my tirade against the emailer via this thread.

                                              God Bless,  Mark C.

 


 

Mark,

Inner strength is promised through the power of the Holy Spirit.  If you are a Christian, you already have that power within you.  Believing what the Bible says about your present gifts and position and exercising faith through the power of the Holy Spirit within is the only way of victory in any aspect of the spiritual life.

You seem to disagree!   

You have made many statements like this:

Inner strength is promised via the communication of God's very personal interest and care for the wounded pilgrim.

I don't think anyone on this board disagrees with that.  The question is, "How do I access this in my times of need?" 

If someone is discouraged now, how do they encourage themselves in the Lord?  If they are fearful, how do they become strong?   If they are tempted to be bitter, how do they purify their hearts?   

I don't mean theoretically, I mean practically.  What does one do when the evil is upon them?

Please be specific.

Thomas Maddux

[Mark C.]

Hi Tom!

  Thanks very much for your response and questions to the point re. "inner strength" and I will try to answer as best I can.

  If I understand your position correctly, you believe that we can actualize the Spirit in our lives via our wills that have been regenerated at the new birth. 

   Faith then, as based on the above belief, is trust in the fact that I have a new nature that can only find practical expression as I "reckon" it so by "taking steps of faith" which release the already present HS in me.

  You are correct in asking how my views on "inner strength" find practical and specific meaning for our lives, because when we ask these questions they immediately point to great difficulties with what I believe is your position (as I've tried to summarize above).

  GG taught a similar definition of faith, as do others such as Solomon, wherein the believer needs to learn to "identify" themselves with Christ via "taking the place", "reckoning dead", and etc. 

   Personally, and as we can see in the lives of GG and other Assembly members, these attempts at "identification" had two results:
 
1.) The hypocrite:  GG and other top dogs who simply lived in deep denial of their own deep struggles with sin and weakness.

2.) The depressed:  These were those who constantly streamed forward to the front after a meeting "seeking counsel" for why they couldn't seem to "lay hold" on the victory for their lives.

  There's more to "inner strength", as I've tried to demonstrate repeatedly from the NT, than just the facts of our salvation, a keen mind for discovering a process in the bible that guides us to "victorious living", and a strong will.

  Eph. 3, as I've tried to show, tells us that God's Spirit brings inner strength to our lives, not through our abilities to actualize our faith, but via the knowledge that God loves me.

   The difference in the former view of how the Spirit works, and the latter, is that one is based on my ability to somehow arrange my inner life and assert my will, while the the other is trust in God's atttitude toward me.  One is faith in my ability to make a process work in my life and the other is trust in a real person with whom I have a personal relationship with.

   Personal relationships do not operate with the kind of precision that some lay out for a Christian life based on a series of principles (even very true principles).  This is because we are human and this means our inner life consists of more than reason and will.

  Specifically, when I am tempted (inner conflict) to sin, and attempt to "take the place" and find that sin overcomes my will (and when this happens repeatedly) I become defeated.  I start to wonder why I just can't seem to "get the victory" like other Christians.  "Maybe," I will think," the bible says I'm a new creature, and yet I fail ; so either I'm personally defective or unsaved?!"

  Specifically, on the other hand, when I'm tempted to sin, instead of analyzing how I failed to access the Spirit in my life, I come to God and a conversation is started.  I realize that God is near and very concerned about my struggle and instead of getting depressed I become encouraged that his love and friendship are sure.  I also realize that there is a depth in me that prevents me from always understanding the forces within that seek to control me. 

   From the above relationship I find that there is a growing strength in my inner life: ie, love, joy, peace: vs. the gnawing self doubt, feeling of distance, and self loathing that the "reckoning faith" approach has brought me.

  Those who rely on reason and will alone to live the Christian life can run into the difficulty of becoming control freaks and perfectionists.  There's a whole lot going on inside of us that we don't understand, and God alone does---- "Cast all your care on Him, for he cares for you"--- try and think about this verse w/o including an emotional component to your faith and it just would not make any sense.

   Inner strength is not the absence of sinful tendencies, nor can these be "reckoned dead" by us, for Rom. 6 is dealing with one's behavior (outer life), but we still do not live in anxious fear over these sinful desires (Rm. 8:15).  We are to "put to death" sinful behaviors, but I challenge any Christian to honestly suggest that they can irradicate the sinful nature in their lives.

  The Spirit does not overpower our inner life and fill us with a perfect Christ like psyche.  The Spirit does recognize the depths of our inner need and makes intercession for us with "groanings" which we can't find a rational explanation to make on our own.  Groanings?  Sounds pretty emotional to me. 

  The above paragraph shows the Spirit's action in a specific and practical need as regards the inner life.  When it comes to the outer life (behavior, attitudes) as regenerated Christians we do need to exert our wills and do what is right.  We need to stop hoping in our abilities as a regenerated Christian and put all our hope in the God who wants to have a close personal relationship with us.

                                            God Bless,  Mark C.

   

[vernecarty]

Mark,

If someone is discouraged now, how do they encourage themselves in the Lord?  If they are fearful, how do they become strong?   If they are tempted to be bitter, how do they purify their hearts?   

I don't mean theoretically, I mean practically.  What does one do when the evil is upon them?

Please be specific.

Thomas Maddux

This is one of the very best questions ever posed on this BB.
Unless we can give a cogent answer to this query, all our discourse is so much sound and fury.
I think Mark has already made some excellent points about the results of just human effort, well-intentioned though it may be..
It is my fervent hope that many would take a shot at this. Even some of you lurking in the shadows for I think after all is said and done, Tom's query is what it all boils down to.
I want to take a shot, and I am not going to talk about theory.
I still often fail as a Christian.
I still often discover in myself, attitudes, speech, disposition that does not comport with the new life in Christ.
I think that is the first and most important consideration.
Anyone trying to make the case to me that as a Christian they have arrived at some state of holiness that precludes sin and failure has lost my attention before they even got started.
The Bible calls them a liar.

Having said that, I think we could sum up Tom's query in a broad and general way by asking:

How does one see the fruit if the Spirit in one's life?

There is much bubbling up in my heart on this but I really want to hear from some other folks.

I will simply say this by way of encouraging our thinkg - What is the nature of fruit?
Verne

But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.

[David Mauldin]

Thanks Vern, Tom, is it true that you nominated G.G. to be elder???  Your daughter told me you did. (I could have misunderstood her.) Tom, you were "A leading Brother" in the assembly for many years. Why didn't you stop G.G. whan It was your responsiblity? Had you done your duty perhaps many people would have avoided his abuses?? Steve Irons is a man who demonstrates a brokeness and repentance for his role as a former leader in the assembly. Yet, I have never heard, read anywhere that you have taken any blame.   On the contrary you jump in where you are not appreciated. You make statements meant to hurt and confuse people. Tom remember it was I who told you about this B.B.? I called you to tell you that Rachel Geftakys would like to the name of the woman G.G. commited adultery with. (I only knew of the elder who confronted him.) You told me that "No" you weren't giving me the name. You then told me in your polite manner that "Rachel needs a counselor!) and "By!"  How is it Tom that you have controle of this B.B. Your great leadership skills???

[vernecarty]

Thanks Vern, Tom, is it true that you nominated G.G. to be elder???  Your daughter told me you did. (I could have misunderstood her.) Tom, you were "A leading Brother" in the assembly for many years. Why didn't you stop G.G. whan It was your responsiblity? Had you done your duty perhaps many people would have avoided his abuses?? Steve Irons is a man who demonstrates a brokeness and repentance for his role as a former leader in the assembly. Yet, I have never heard, read anywhere that you have taken any blame.   On the contrary you jump in where you are not appreciated. You make statements meant to hurt and confuse people. Tom remember it was I who told you about this B.B.? I called you to tell you that Rachel Geftakys would like to the name of the woman G.G. commited adultery with. (I only knew of the elder who confronted him.) You told me that "No" you weren't giving me the name. You then told me in your polite manner that "Rachel needs a counselor!) and "By!"  How is it Tom that you have controle of this B.B. Your great leadership skills???

I for one have seen Tom's expression of regret for the part he played David.
I also agree that Steve Irons has been a marvellous example in the way he has responded and taken responsibility for his part in all this.
David I don't know what you think about the Son of God.
If you know anything at all about Him, there is nothing you or I can say that will add to or lessen the severity of the reponsibility the men around Geftakys will face when they stand in His presence. 
For those who have clearly repented, and I think Tom is one of them, they deserve our forgiveness, our acceptance, and our love. The pain of whatever responsibility these men bear for their deception by Geftakys really ought not to be exacerbated by our throwing it back in their faces. I hope what I say does not offend you as I have really been enjoying your participation and thoughtful and thought-provoking queries. God bless.
Verne

[Oscar]

Mark,

This is my response to the last post you addressed to me.

Although I could wax theological, I think Rick Warren has expressed the basic idea pretty well. 

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From "The Purpose Driven Life" by Rick Warren.  Page 174-176.  I have skipped some material that is just illustrative.

God's part and your part.  Christlikeness is the result of making Christlike choices and depending on his Spirit to help you fulfill those choices.  Once you decide to get serious about becoming like Christ, you must begin to act in new ways.  You will need to let go of some of the old routines, develop some new habits, and intentionally change the way you think.  You can be certain that the Holy Spirit will help you with these changes.  The Bible says, "continue to work out your salvation with fear and trembling, for it is God who works in you to will and to act according to his good purpose."

   This verse shows the two parts of spiritual growth; "work out" and "work in".  The "work out" is your responsibility, and the "work in" is God's role.  Spiritual growth is a collaborative effort between you and the Holy Spirit.  God's Spirit works with us, not just in us.

   This verse, written to believers, is not about how to be saved, but how to grow.  It does not say "work for" your salvation, because you can't add anything to what Jesus already did.  During a physical "workout" you exercise to develop your body, not to get a body...

   ...God has given you a new life; now you are responsible to develop it "with fear and trembling."  That means take your spiritual growth seriously...

Changing your autopilot.  To change your life, you must change the way you think.  Behind everything you do is a thought.  Every behavior is motivated by a belief, and every action is prompted by an attitude.  God revealed this thousands of years before psychologists understood it: "Be careful how you think; your life is shaped by your thoughts."

Now, notice Warren's take on the will

This is what happens when you try to change your life with willpower; you say, "I'll force myself to eat less...exercise more...(and heal the damage caused by my assembly experience. My note).  Yes, willpower can produce short-term change, but it creates constant internal stress because you haven't dealt with the root cause.  The change doesn't feel natural, so eventually you give it up...you quickly revert to your old patterns.

   There is a better and easier way: Change your autopilot-the way you think.  The Bible says, "Let God transform you into a new person by changing the way you think." Your first step in spiritual growth is to start changing the way you think.  Change always starts first in the mind.  The way you think determines the way you feel, and the way you feel influences the way you act.  Paul said, "There must be a spiritual renewal of your thoughts and attitudes"...

To be like Christ you must develop the mind of Christ.  the New Testament calls this mental shift repentence, which in Greek literally means "to change your mind."  You repent whenever you change the way you think by adopting how god thinks-about yourself, sin, God, other people...and everything else.     


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This is illustrative of what I have been saying Mark. 

Thomas Maddux

[vernecarty]

I guess it is therefore safe to say, based on what you are saying that spiritual growth:
1.Begins with a change in our thinking.
2.Takes time.

A bit of a different perspective from what I was thinking with my fruit paradigm but quite interesting nonetheless.
I see your point. As a man thinketh... as it were...
Verne
p.s. I think something wonderful also happens in the realm of the  will as we grow in grace and it has to do with desire

[editor]

I guess it is therefore safe to say, based on what you are saying that spiritual growth:
1.Begins with a change in our thinking.
2.Takes time.

A bit of a different perspective from what I was thinkig with my fruit paradigm but quite interesting nonetheless.
I see you point. As a man thinketh... as it were...
Verne
p.s. I think something wonderful also happens in the realm of the  will as we grow in grace and it has to do with desire

I think that our thinking changes as a result of God's Spirit.  Changed thinking means changed behavior, etc.

While I don't think Rick Warren is at all teaching that our thinking is what is responsible for change, others get confused on this.  It is especially prevalent in non-christian self improvement groups.

The danger with this type of thinking is that some will take it the wrong way, and begin to see themselves as responsible for their lack of holiness, or take credit for their progress.  Afterall, my choices earned me my state in life, right?

Brent

[vernecarty]

I think that our thinking changes as a result of God's Spirit.  Changed thinking means changed behavior, etc.

While I don't think Rick Warren is at all teaching that our thinking is what is responsible for change, others get confused on this.  It is especially prevalent in non-christian self improvement groups.

The danger with this type of thinking is that some will take it the wrong way, and begin to see themselves as responsible for their lack of holiness, or take credit for their progress.  Afterall, my choices earned me my state in life, right?

Brent

In fact, if I were going to answer Tom original query about dealing with discouragement and the coming of evil to our doorstep I would not have begun with our thinking.
While I understand where Tom is coming from on this Brent, the danger you allude to with this approach is very real.
Tom talked about transformation, renewing of our minds as it were but was not as clear as I hoped about how this is supposed to take place.
Again I would like posit that the place to begin is not with our thinking, but rather with God's. What exactly do I mean by that?
Let me be practical.
It is my personal opinon, that the reason there are so many weak and discouraged Christians today is because of the disregard so many of us have for the Word of God.
I am not talking about seminary study.
I am not talking about diagramming the entire NT.
I am not even talking about learning Hebrew and Greek.
I am talking about simply reading God's word.

We should begin with God's thinking not ours.
If I understand the application of salvation correctly, it is the exclusive domain of the Spirit of God. If I understand my Bible correctly, His primary instrument in the accomplishment of this task is the Word of God.


 But we all, with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord, are changed into the same image from glory to glory, even as by the Spirit of the Lord

Some will immediately point out:
Look how much time we spent in our Bibles in the assemblies and look at what happened!
Read the verse carefully...
Verne

[Mark Kisla]

I think that our thinking changes as a result of God's Spirit.  Changed thinking means changed behavior, etc.

While I don't think Rick Warren is at all teaching that our thinking is what is responsible for change, others get confused on this.  It is especially prevalent in non-christian self improvement groups.

The danger with this type of thinking is that some will take it the wrong way, and begin to see themselves as responsible for their lack of holiness, or take credit for their progress.  Afterall, my choices earned me my state in life, right?

Brent

I think you make a very important point about the danger of taking this type of thinking the wrong way; seeking God gets replaced with regiment, the exercise replaces the relationship.  Pride sets in....then comes the fall,  because we want control.
God does something wonderful
Man is drawn to it
Man sticks his hands in it
Man can't figure out where God went

[editor]

I agree.

Here is a subtlety that I have come to recognize.  In the past, I would "spend time with The Lord," because if I didn't, I would miss out on what God had for me.  If I was faithful, I would get what He had, which was better than what the unfaithful guys got.

I couldn't grow, if I didn't do my part, which is no different than saying I am responsible for my sanctification.  This, of course, is wrong.

Because of the emphasis on AM times, and the Heavenly Ladder, etc.  When I did spend time in the Word, I wasn't beholding the Glory of the Lord so much as desperately trying to "hear His voice." Much more effort was spent trying to repent, get quiet before God, and get a word in season, than meditating on Him.

If I was faithful, I felt good, and had some thoughts to share on Sunday.  If I was unfaithful, I would feel guilty, because someone would come up and say, "How'd the Lord speak to you this AM, brother?"  I would have to dodge the question, because if I was found out to have not been having my AM times, I would be admonished, etc.

It's a far cry from reading the Bible out of a sincere desire!  Some of the best times I had were in Seminars, when I tuned George out and read the text for a while, without realizing I was ignoring God's Servant.  Towards the end, I didn't even take notes, that was cool.

Anyhow, people who know how to work hard, and stick with something do well with the "Change your thoughts change your life" approach to salvation.  (At least they think they are doing well.)

Those who can't seem to get it together are chronically discouraged and live in doubt.

It seems to me that a simple message of Grace, Mercy and Love, the Gospel of Jesus Christ, is the message that people need to hear.  The proud acheivers need it as much as the discouraged failures.

Brent

[Mark Kisla]

Guilt is a powerful multi purpose tool of Satan, that can be used to destroy any good thing.
I like what Johnny Cash used to say, "I choose Love" Knowing God loves you is a great motivator.
I think the question to ask ourselves is, Do I REALLY KNOW GOD LOVES ME ?

[vernecarty]

I think you make a very important point about the danger of taking this type of thinking the wrong way; seeking God gets replaced with regiment, the exercise replaces the relationship.  Pride sets in....then comes the fall,  because we want control.
God does something wonderful
Man is drawn to it
Man sticks his hands in it
Man can't figure out where God went

The question of how it was possible to spend so much time looking at our Bibles and still be so completely deceived and corrupt in the assemblies is a legitimate one. I would like to think about this especially from the perspective of those who were workers and leading brethren. Ask yourself this question:
What happens to the person who continually looks at God's clearly presented standard in His Word, yet continues to engage in conduct, or to be associated with those whose conduct clearly and flagrantly violate that standard?
I think this is the thing that is so hard for some of these folks.

Many if not all of them knew the things taking place were not right!
If they were reading their Bibles they had to know it!

The consequence for being just a hearer and not a doer of the Word is plainly spelled out, namely self-deception!
Verne

[editor]

Guilt is a powerful multi purpose tool of Satan, that can be used to destroy any good thing.
I like what Johnny Cash used to say, "I choose Love" Knowing God loves you is a great motivator.
I think the question to ask ourselves is, Do I REALLY KNOW GOD LOVES ME ?

A really good preacher will convince you that God loves you.  That's his job, and if he does it well, you'll believe.  I think they call that being an evangelist and a teacher.  We need guys like that.

Verne,

Why did we continue to associate with George, even though we knew things were wrong?  Little by little, some more than others, our consciences were seared.  That's all.

Brent