- Spiritual Philosophy of Moral Foreign Policy

We Christians seem to have totally lost sight of the fact that our citizenship is in heaven (Phil 3:20-21)and that we are merely living as aliens (Hebrews 11:13) in whatever country in which we happen to reside on this earth. Contrary to what we may have been taught in school, the United States was founded upon a false premise by well-meaning, but misguided men who decided to rebel against England and King George and form what they described as a “more perfect union” - an act of civil disobedience that is expressly forbidden in the scriptures (Romans 13:1-2). And, yes, I’ve heard the arguments by those who would justify rebellion against “unjust” governments, as if Paul was writing under some delusion that he expected that countries were being governed by men who were going to adhere to godly principles. Were we to assume that he would advocate rebellion against tyrannical governments, would he not have started with Rome?

But, let’s assume that the founding fathers had erroneously presumed that Paul was allowing latitude whereby they might set aside his exhortation and rebel against the unreasonable edicts of King George. By what manner of reasoning did they decide that the Lord would sanction the establishment of a new nation; sectarian or Christian. And how were they to justify the forceful confiscation of land from the natives who inhabited it? To His chosen people, Israel, alone did God bequeath a parcel of land for their possession. And are we to suppose that the Father is pleased with this nation that would advocate the partitioning of that land and relinquishing ownership to hostile unbelievers?

So, before we attempt to justify taking up the sword in order to form some sort of pseudo-democratic nation abroad, it would be well to advocate repentance of this nation that has turned away from God and His Son, Christ Jesus our Lord.

Chuck Miller

Chuck,

"We Christians"? Seems to me that most Christians do not see the fact that our citizenship is in heaven as prohibiting acknowledging our earthly citizenship.

Seems to me that anyone who really believes as you seem to should apply for resident alien status. After all, if you are not a citizen of the USA you cannot vote or hold a passport legally. If one applies for a passport he must show proof of citizenship, right? Many job applications, school applications and other documents have a box to check for US Citizen. Would it be lying to check yes? Or, should we all check no?

I have known many folks who see Philippians 3:20-21 as meaning that we are not really citizens of the USA. However, when I have discussed this with them they only seem to want to apply it to voting and serving in the military. They have no problem with the "perks", but reject the responsibilities that come with them.

Actually, most of us see the verse in question as applying to our ultimate loyalty and eternal destination rather than as a legalistic prohibition.

But, let’s assume that the founding fathers had erroneously presumed that Paul was allowing latitude whereby they might set aside his exhortation and rebel against the unreasonable edicts of King George. By what manner of reasoning did they decide that the Lord would sanction the establishment of a new nation; sectarian or Christian.

Chuck, this objection was raised at the time and answered. I am not going to attempt a long dissertation on the subject, but will just mention a couple of topics you can research if you wish: Scottish Common Sense philosophy and Natural Rights theory. In sum, they believed that God had given men the right to change the form of their government under certain conditions.

They did not ask God's sanction on their new government. They believed, as you do, that only Israel had a specific land grant from God. They believed that God, in creating man in his own image, had given him sufficient intellect to form just and equitable governments. They also knew that man was fallen and easily corrupted, so they did all they could to protect men from government abuses.

They weren't perfect, Chuck...but what they did was to form a government that has lasted over two centuries and is working on a third. Most folks seem to think that this is a pretty good outfit, seeing as how they try to get here in such numbers by any means possible.

Speaking for myself, I am grateful to be a citizen of the USA and take my rights and responsibilities as a citizen very seriously.

Blessings,

Tom M.

Tom.

YOU WROTE: Chuck, [you said] "We Christians"? Seems to me that most Christians do not see the fact that our citizenship is in heaven as prohibiting acknowledging our earthly citizenship.

MY RESPONSE: And you didn’t hear me say that it does, Tom. Yes,
I am a citizen of the United States and I have clearly outlined my responsibilities as such on Reply #123, so I don’t see a need to repeat them.

YOU WROTE: Seems to me that anyone who really believes as you seem to should apply for resident alien status. After all, if you are not a citizen of the USA you cannot vote or hold a passport legally. If one applies for a passport he must show proof of citizenship, right? Many job applications, school applications and other documents have a box to check for US Citizen. Would it be lying to check yes? Or, should we all check no?

MY RESPONSE: I guess you didn’t bother to read my previous posts wherein I addressed these inane postulations.

YOU WROTE: I have known many folks who see Philippians 3:20-21 as meaning that we are not really citizens of the USA. However, when I have discussed this with them they only seem to want to apply it to voting and serving in the military. They have no problem with the "perks", but reject the responsibilities that come with them.

MY RESPONSE: Then maybe you should be talking to the ones who do accept the responsibilities, but refuse to compromise the commands of Christ in deference to loyalty to a decadent nation that has sunken to the depths of depravity and unrighteousness.

YOU WROTE: Actually, most of us see the verse in question as applying to our ultimate loyalty and eternal destination rather than as a legalistic prohibition.

MY RESPONSE: If you consider this “ultimate loyalty” to be superceded by loyalty to a flag or a sectarian government, have at it Tom. I don’t view it as a “legalistic prohibition,” but rather as the ultimate priority.

YOU WROTE: [a quote from my response] Quote: “But, let’s assume that the founding fathers had erroneously presumed that Paul was allowing latitude whereby they might set aside his exhortation and rebel against the unreasonable edicts of King George. By what manner of reasoning did they decide that the Lord would sanction the establishment of a new nation; sectarian or Christian?”

Chuck, this objection was raised at the time and answered. I am not going to attempt a long dissertation on the subject, but will just mention a couple of topics you can research if you wish: Scottish Common Sense philosophy and Natural Rights theory. In sum, they believed that God had given men the right to change the form of their government under certain conditions.

MY RESPONSE: Do they believe that God gave them the right to alter His government or substitute another for it?

YOU WROTE: They did not ask God's sanction on their new government. They believed, as you do, that only Israel had a specific land grant from God. They believed that God, in creating man in his own image, had given him sufficient intellect to form just and equitable governments.

MY RESPONSE: God created Adam in His Own image and likeness (Gen 2:27). Adam sinned and his progeny were created “in his own likeness, according to his image” (Gen 5:3). Man has to be “born again” to be born in the image and likeness of God.
It is recorded that “they” (the Founding Fathers) were predominantly Christian men, but several were Deists. There was no reason for the Christians to try to form a” just and equitable government,” since Jesus had instituted the perfect one when He established His church. And when that church was functioning properly, it exhibited the wisdom of God and the power of God. It is seen in the following account in the Book of Acts:

41 So then, those who had received his word were baptized; and that day there were added about three thousand souls.
42 They were continually devoting themselves to the apostles' teaching and to fellowship, to the breaking of bread and to prayer.
43 Everyone kept feeling a sense of awe; and many wonders and signs were taking place through the apostles.
44 And all those who had believed were together and had all things in common;
45 and they began selling their property and possessions and were sharing them with all, as anyone might have need.
46 Day by day continuing with one mind in the temple, and breaking bread from house to house, they were taking their meals together with gladness and sincerity of heart,
47 praising God and having favor with all the people And the Lord was adding to their number day by day those who were being saved. Acts 2:41-47

What need had they of a sectarian form of government when God had blessed them with the most just and equitable one that the world has ever known.

YOU WROTE: They also knew that man was fallen and easily corrupted, so they did all they could to protect men from government abuses.

MY RESPONSE: Would you say that they have been successful, Tom?

YOU WROTE: They weren't perfect, Chuck...but what they did was to form a government that has lasted over two centuries and is working on a third. Most folks seem to think that this is a pretty good outfit, seeing as how they try to get here in such numbers by any means possible.

MY RESPONSE When you start comparing one secular government with another, Americans can feel a certain measure of satisfaction. But we must look to Christ for our standard, not the world.

[continue below]

Hi Chuck!

I'm not sure if I understand your views on government; are you suggesting that something like the Amish model would be ideal for Christians? (you know, live together and share all in common as the verses you quoted in Acts).

If the church is God's only government what of the teaching of Jesus re. "The Two Kingdoms?" (Jesus acknowledged the Roman Govt. and submitted to being taxed by this wicked emperor.)

Re. the Founding Fathers of this nation: It was established on principles that were indeed enlightened by the bible (not withstanding a couple of these men being off in their theology). This understanding of the bible saw the dignity of man as created in the image of God.

Though new birth is necessary to bring man to God's intention of this reality one must first acknowledge that God greatly values each person and wants them to enjoy true freedom in their lives. This freedom is not just at death (though this is the ultimate hope) but is intended by God to be pursued by us as we live our day to day lives.

What I mean by the above paragraph is that Christians should do all they can in this life in attempting to bring about a worldly govt. that resists evil and promotes honorable ends. We have been provided an unusual advantage to achieve this goal via our constitution (where these principles are clearly stated) and as Paul used his Roman citizenship so should we use our US citizenship.

Of course, this is a sinful world and Christians would be foolish to think that their participation in politics is somehow "the answer", but the Judeo-Christian world view that has dominated (in the past) this country from the beginning has produced some very positive things:

1.) We "saved" Europe and the Orient from tyrannical dictatorships that most certainly would have opposed the Gospel and oppressed believers (not to the mention the rest of humanity who would suffer under these). Germany, Japan, and more recently The Soviet Union. We did this because we believed in that "all men are created equal" and have the right to liberty, etc.

2.) A very large Evangelical Christian missionary effort that also brings temporal blessings to fellow humans living in suffering. (this nation gives much more by far than any other in this effort).

3.) Fought our own civil war in this country, in part, to bring about the end of slavery.

Now, I know that this nation has also produced some very evil things, but when it does it violates it's own principles (as with Native Americans) and this is an important difference as it provides an opportunity for repentance and growth as we try to right these wrongs.

Also, as we sit here and shake our heads and point fingers at all "the sinners" around us in this nation we need to be careful that we don't lift up our head in prayer and say something like, "I thank thee Lord that I am not like" them and "thus pray with ourselves." Only God's grace has changed us from our fallen condition and we need to remind ourselves that this continues to be the case with us lest we fall.

I am very thankful that God has allowed this nation to exist and do believe He has blessed it because of the principles upon which it was established and because of the sacrafices of those who have served it's wonderful goals.

God bless, Mark C.

I'm not totally sure if I fully understand the argument Chuck is really making, but I recall that the Apostle Paul, in Acts, more than once, claims his Roman citizenship. In one instance he makes the claim in response to mistreatment he is receiving at the hands of others. If Paul's only citizenship was in Heaven I doubt he would have mentioned his earthly citizenship at all.

Not that this is Biblical, but I have always believed the United States was created and was used by God to represent heaven in a kind of earthly form. The United States welcomes ALL who want to come, and has a diversity unlike any other country. Though not followed at all times, the Constitution is written as a Supreme Law with all citizens "created equal". Heaven will be filled with every race and culture---as is the United States.

Interestingly, Our Government is split into (3) "Heads" so to speak---Executive, Judicial and Legislative. God is made up of (3) persons---not to be trite, but the Executive could represent the Father, the Judicial the Son, and the Legislative The Holy Spirit(though all co-equal in power--"balance of powers"). Of course, the (3) branches may all be coincidental, but I have always felt God was giving a message in the creation of the United States. Our money says "In God We Trust" on it, and our Pledge says "One Nation, Under God". The United States has always tried to live by "The Golden Rule", and is always the first to lend a hand to other nations.

Chuck says the United States was founded by "well-meaning, but misguided men". I don't believe this to be the case at all. I believe these men were led by God to a new land. I don't believe the Bible teaches that men are to sit under any form of government and "accept their fate", or all Christians would ever do is sit still---there would be no exploration, no invention, no seeking for better things. "I came that they might have life, and have it more abundantly". Men set sail for North America because of promises like that one. The "abundant life" is mainly spiritual of course, but it also refers to physical life also.

Would it be "unbiblical" for Christians, if they were the one's being sent to concentration camps, to "rebel" against a cruel and horrible government like Nazi Germany? Dietrich Bonhoeffer, a Christian during that time, whose books are in every Christian bookstore, was involved (though not physically present) in an attempt to assassinate Hitler at that time. He was jailed for it. Was he acting unscripturally? Would a better choice be to sit back and do nothing because his "citizenship" was in Heaven? Was Dietrich Bonhoeffer "well-meaning but misguided"?

I have to admit, even as a child (far before my conversion), I wondered, with strong distaste, at children of Jehovah's Witnesses, who would remain seated during the "Pledge of Allegiance". How could they not salute the flag? By not doing so were they really pleasing God? And today, I still feel the same. How can one not stand when the National Anthem is played, after thousands of people have died for that flag, and for all of the rights we possess as U.S. Citizens? Where is my allegiance? Am I a "citizen of Heaven", but have an earthly allegiance to myself? Or am I a "citizen of Heaven" with an earthly allegiance to a country, with a high set of Ideals, whose citizens have sacrificed themselves, so that others could continue to live with freedoms we possess which are hardly known anywhere else in the world?

God chose the land of Israel for the Jews---but who has always been it's strongest defender and friend, giving more aid to it than any other country? The United States was created for a purpose, and not by "well-meaning but misguided men". Despite the evils (slavery for example) that come with men, God raised up the United States to be a defender of Israel in the last days. I really believe that.

[CONTINUED FROM ABOVE]

YOU WROTE: 2.) A very large Evangelical Christian missionary effort that also brings temporal blessings to fellow humans living in suffering. (this nation gives much more by far than any other in this effort).

MY RESPONSE: I commend the Christians who have contributed aid to the victims of disasters. We are instructed by Christ to do so. But where in the Constitution are politicians granted the responsibility or right to disburse money for benevolent purposes Read Davey Crockett’s speech to Congress “Not Yours To Give” (www.house.gov/paul/nytg.htm) . Perhaps if our politicians understood the Constitution in the manner in which Crockett did, this country would not be in such dire financial straits.
Remember also that this nation supplied arms both to Osama Ben Ladin and his Afghanistan army and to Saddam Hussein in his fight against Iran. I understand the U.S. has also provided arms, as well as humanitarian aid to Hamas in Palestine.

YOU WROTE. 3) Fought our own civil war in this country, in part, to bring about the end of slavery.

MY RESPONSE: I find it hard to believe that you would use the Ciivil War as an example of how the “Judeo-Christian world view that has dominated (in the past) this country from the beginning has produced some very positive things.”
If you do a little research Mark, I think you’ll find that the primary reason for Mr. Lincoln’s Civil War was to prevent Southern States from seceding from the Union. There were differing opinions concerning the sovereignty of the states, particularly on the issue of slavery. Certainly, Jesus would never have sanctioned slavery in the manner in which it was practiced in this country, but do you truly believe He approved of the bloody conflict that pitted Christians against Christians and took nearly 700,000 lives?

YOU WROTE: Now, I know that this nation has also produced some very evil things, but when it does it violates it's own principles (as with Native Americans) and this is an important difference as it provides an opportunity for repentance and growth as we try to right these wrongs.

MY RESPONSE: The “opportunity for repentance” does not always bring about repentance just as acknowledgement of sin does not always bring about a change of behavior. In the church, unrepentant sin is dealt with by expulsion, whereas, unrepentant sin of a nation is generally rationalized away by its leaders and its citizens. Righteousness is not like a balance scale where you pile the good deeds on one side and hope they outweigh the bad deeds on the other. God’s standard is perfection and it is found only in His Son.

YOU WROTE: Also, as we sit here and shake our heads and point fingers at all "the sinners" around us in this nation we need to be careful that we don't lift up our head in prayer and say something like, "I thank thee Lord that I am not like" them and "thus pray with ourselves." Only God's grace has changed us from our fallen condition and we need to remind ourselves that this continues to be the case with us lest we fall.

MY RESPONSE: And because we have God’s grace, we are no longer slaves to sin, and when unrepentant sinners are in our midst (in the church), we are not told to tolerate them, but to cast them out. We are told not to judge those outside the church, for God will judge them. But we are never told to be silent about sin.

YOU WROTE: I am very thankful that God has allowed this nation to exist and do believe He has blessed it because of the principles upon which it was established and because of the sacrafices of those who have served it's wonderful goals.

God bless, Mark C.

MY RESPONSE: I too, believe God has allowed this nation to exist. I also know that Israel wanted to have an earthly king and they persisted in their desire for one even though God warned them of the consequences. He allowed them to have a king, to their detriment
I believe that God allowed this country to exist and prosper even though it was founded upon a false premise. As for blessing – do you suppose He blesses a nation that slaughters millions of unborn babies every year; a nation that teaches its schoolchildren that homosexuality is an acceptable lifestyle and permits same-sex marriages; a nation that idolizes sexual promiscuity and exports its perverse products to other countries?
No, Mark, this country is going down and I believe it will suffer H is wrath as it does. We have failed in our mission to bring light to a dark world. The Christian church in this country has made a mockery of the purpose for which it was founded:

so that the manifold wisdom of God might now be made known through the church to the rulers and the authorities in the heavenly places. Ephesians 3:10

God bless, Chuck

Hi Mark,

YOU WROTE : Hi Chuck! I'm not sure if I understand your views on government; are you suggesting that something like the Amish model would be ideal for Christians? (you know, live together and share all in common as the verses you quoted in Acts).

MY RESPONSE: I don’t subscribe to the Amish model in that they isolate themselves almost totally from the world. In doing so, their testimony is muted and unlike the church in Acts 2, they have not “found favor with all the people” (vs 47). Their disdain for “things” of the world is taken to an extreme, to where they are looked upon as being “strange” or “religious” and lose the large part of their potential audience for the gospel. Certainly, as followers of Christ (I prefer that description rather than “Christian”) the unbeliever should witness something different in our life that is attractive to them. Not just in life style, but in character and in the peace and quiet joy that only Christ can give.

YOU WROTE: If the church is God's only government what of the teaching of Jesus re. "The Two Kingdoms?" (Jesus acknowledged the Roman Govt. and submitted to being taxed by this wicked
emperor.)

MY RESPONSE: And in doing so He left an impact upon the whole world. Like all sectarian governments, the Roman government failed and finally collapsed. The unbelievers in Jerusalem (Acts 2) saw something in the followers of Christ that was working and many were attracted to it. It wasn’t a cause or a movement to which they were attracted – it was Jesus Christ. It wasn’t a cause or a movement about which Peter preached on the day of Pentecost - it was Jesus Christ.

YOU WROTE: Re. the Founding Fathers of this nation: It was established on principles that were indeed enlightened by the bible (not withstanding a couple of these men being off in their theology). This understanding of the bible saw the dignity of man as created in the image of God.

MY RESPONSE: As I pointed out in my response to Tom, we are created in the image and likeness of Adam, so we have no inate goodness. The only inalienable right we have is the opportunity to receive Jesus Christ as our Savior. We need to be born again (from above) in order to take on the image and likeness of God.

YOU WROTE: Though new birth is necessary to bring man to God's intention of this reality one must first acknowledge that God greatly values each person and wants them to enjoy true freedom in their lives. This freedom is not just at death (though this is the ultimate hope) but is intended by God to be pursued by us as we live our day to day lives.

MY RESPONSE: Mark, all I knew was that I was a lousy sinner and couldn’t reform my life no matter how much I wanted to, or how hard I tried. I just wanted to be right with my God. When I came to understand that there was nothing I could do to accomplish that and that Jesus had done it all on the cross, I received Him as my Savior and my Lord. The peace (and freedom) that passes all understanding filled my soul and spirit and has only gotten stronger as the years have gone by.

YOU WROTE: What I mean by the above paragraph is that Christians should do all they can in this life in attempting to bring about a worldly govt. that resists evil and promotes honorable ends. We have been provided an unusual advantage to achieve this goal via our constitution (where these principles are clearly stated) and as Paul used his Roman citizenship so should we use our US citizenship.

MY RESPONSE: Read Deuteronomy 28, Mark, and see how Israel had the opportunity to establish an earthly nation that would have been greatly blessed by God. But Israel disobeyed God and suffered the consequences of that which He had warned.
We had an opportunity to show to the world, a perfect government for He says:

so that the manifold wisdom of God might now be made known through the church to the rulers and the authorities in the heavenly places.

In Acts 2, we see how the church was flourishing when they were functioning in accordance with Jesus’ purpose (vs41-43). But it didn’t take long for ambitious men to federate the church into a hierarchichal system that ran counter to Christ’s purpose for His church. Today, thousands of denominations and divisions abound in Christendom proving that we can’t even abide by His instructions for building His church. Would you then have me believe that we are capable of establishing a worldly government that” resists evil and promotes honorable ends.” In just a couple of centuries we have seen a nation that was supposedly established upon Judeo/Christian principles degenerate into godlessness and relativism

YOU WROTE: Of course, this is a sinful world and Christians would be foolish to think that their participation in politics is somehow "the answer", but the Judeo-Christian world view that has dominated (in the past) this country from the beginning has produced some very positive things:

1.) We "saved" Europe and the Orient from tyrannical dictatorships that most certainly would have opposed the Gospel and oppressed believers (not to the mention the rest of humanity who would suffer under these). Germany, Japan, and more recently The Soviet Union. We did this because we believed in that "all men are created equal" and have the right to liberty, etc.

MY RESPONSE: We flatter ourselves when we take credit for having “saved” Europe and the Orient from tyrannical dictatorships. History shows that Adolph Hitler made some monumental tactical blunders that contributed mightily to his downfall. I believe that God intervened in behalf of the Allied Armies by directing the thoughts of this evil tyrant in order to bring him down.

[CONTINUED BELOW]]

Chuck, a very blessed Easter to you and all BB readers!

Thank you so much for your thoughtful response to my questions and my comments re. your posts.

I can't in one post answer each and every point you raised, and instead will try to focus on the main issue that this conversation seems to be taking; which might change the subject of the thread to: "USA A GOOD IDEA?"

This is a very good topic for former members of the Assembly as we were taught to relate to the world around us in a particular way that, to say the least, was very cynical.

To describe my former view of the church and worldly govt. as instructed by GG succinctly: All govt./peoples of the world are under the control of the Devil---and His true church (those gathering according to GG interpretations of NT gathering) are under God's direct guidance and control.

If the above is as black and white as described above it means that all Christians (I have no problem using this biblical word to describe followers of Christ) should have nothing to do with "the devil's" worldly system of govt. There can be no middle ground in such an absolutist view that draws a line between "heaven's rule vs. the devil's rule."

There were many in Israel at the time of Christ who expected the Messiah to fulfill his ministry by making just such a clear establishment of God's rule through the nation Israel; "Israel was of God and Rome was of the devil," and the Messiah was coming to set all things right.

However, Christ had the harshest words for the religious leaders of Israel, not for the Roman empire, and had no intention in that time of establishing a millenial kingdom for "the followers of God." His words, and the words of the Apostles do not see all govt. function as evil ( "Let every person be in subjection to the governing authorities. For there is not authority except from God, and those that are established are from God---- For rulers are not a cause of fear for good behavior, but for evil----- For it is a minister of God to you for good---" Rom. 13: 1-4)

The above verses establish the fact that govt., provided by God, (when functioning as it should) is to have a moral component that supports good and supresses evil--- even evil that so called believers might do!

The biblical view of "good and evil" is woven into the document of the US Constitution in every line and provides a strong foundation for the kind of function that Paul describes in the verses above. Paul did not expect the Roman govt. to preach "you must be born again and then you will be able to do good and abstain from evil", and yet he did believe that it was to function as a "minister of righteousness."

Would it ever be possible for the church, even when perfectly fulfilling NT design as you see it, to govern God's people? If so why would Paul dissuade just such a notion by telling the Roman church that God had established earthly govt. to minister justice? Yes, the church was to decide certain things re. fidelity to biblical orthodoxy and practice, but only had the power to excommunicate and commit the errant soul to God.

It was for moral reasons (good and evil) that this nation established, "a more perfect union--dedicated to the proposition that all people are created equal." This most certainly was a worthy goal and one that supported righteousness in the world that was superior to Rome, and in the US framers case King George!
English monarchy was filled with corruption and injustice (read evil), and though the American revolution was not an evangelical movement it provided an opportunity to exalt righteousness and denounce immorality.

Yes, this nation has departed from the principles established at it's beginning, and as such----abortion, etc. will bring God's judgment. However, since this is a nation "by the people---" it is our responsibility to be involved in resisting these evil forces and to stand for morality, even though we live in a pluralistic society.

Though my mention of the Civil war surprised you, it is a perfect example of the above. Yes, it was a terrible event in our history, but it was more than just a power struggle, and was fought over certain moral principles. I am aware of the history surrounding this time, but it would be better to bring up this discussion in another post as it might become rather involved. I'll just say right now that preservation of the Union meant fidelity to the principles of justice described in the Constitution.

God Bless and thanks again for being open to discussion, Mark C.

{continued from above]

MY RESPONSE: I would suggest you read some material from The Voice of the Martyrs on the internet and tell me whom you believe is having the greatest impact for Christ – these men and women, or those who founded this country.
Regarding the abundant life, we are told to store up our treasures in heaven. But lest I misunderstand what you are saying, Joe, would you mind explaining what you mean by the “abundant life” referring to the physical life also.

YOU WROTE: Would it be "unbiblical" for Christians, if they were the one's being sent to concentration camps, to "rebel" against a cruel and horrible government like Nazi Germany? Dietrich Bonhoeffer, a Christian during that time, whose books are in every Christian bookstore, was involved (though not physically present) in an attempt to assassinate Hitler at that time. He was jailed for it. Was he acting unscripturally? Would a better choice be to sit back and do nothing because his "citizenship" was in Heaven? Was Dietrich Bonhoeffer "well-meaning but misguided"?

MY RESPONSE : Yes, I believe that Bonhoeffer was acting unscripturally. God said, “Never take your own revenge, beloved, but leave room for the wrath of God, for it is written, " VENGEANCE IS MINE, I WILL REPAY," says the Lord” (Romans 12:19). From what O have read about him, he was a fine Christian man, but I believe he was misguided in joining the plot to kill Hitler.
And what would you conclude, Joe, from the seemingly “miraculous” manner in which Hitler escaped the plot to kill him. I understand that He was convinced that God was watching over him. Would you conclude that God was thwarted in His attempt to liquidate this evil man?
The Jews are still God’s chosen people even in their disobedience. Throughout history, God has punished them for their disobedience and dispersed them for the purpose of bringing them to repentance.

It is easy for you and I, while in the secure and comfortable confines of our homes, or while standing behind a lectern in an auditorium filled with like-minded adherents, to fearlessly ostracize Adolph Hitler and to criticize and condemn Christians who didn’t speak out in opposition to him during his ride to power. It would have been quite another thing to do so in the hostile environment of Nazi Germany and the dreaded Gestapo. Many bravely did, and suffered death or the horrors of the concentration camp.

But will you be so quick to condemn the Ten Boom family, a Christian family in occupied Holland, who hid Jews in their home, while remaining outwardly passive in regard to Hitler and their German conquerors. They were eventually discovered and were assigned to the dreaded death camps where the father was executed in the gas chambers. But the two sisters, Corrie, and Betsy, in particular, became powerful witnesses for Christ Jesus in that camp. Even in death, Becky became a legend, about whom her sister Corrie miraculously lived to tell.

Let me ask you, Joe, who had more impact for the testimony of Christ, Dietrich Bonhoeffer or Betsy Ten Boom?

YOU WROTE: I have to admit, even as a child (far before my conversion), I wondered, with strong distaste, at children of Jehovah's Witnesses, who would remain seated during the "Pledge of Allegiance". How could they not salute the flag? By not doing so were they really pleasing God? And today, I still feel the same. How can one not stand when the National Anthem is played, after thousands of people have died for that flag, and for all of the rights we possess as U.S. Citizens? Where is my allegiance? Am I a "citizen of Heaven", but have an earthly allegiance to myself? Or am I a "citizen of Heaven" with an earthly allegiance to a country, with a high set of Ideals, whose citizens have sacrificed themselves, so that others could continue to live with freedoms we possess which are hardly known anywhere else in the world?

MY RESPONSE: I stand when the National Anthem is played. Were I a citizen of another country, I would do likewise. I do not however, recite the Pledge of Allegiance even though it states that we are one nation “under God.” This country has turned away from God and no amount of patriotic pseudo-Christian rhetoric will change that. My allegiance is to, Christ, but even so, I don’t “pledge” my allegiance to Him, since I might find myself saying, like Peter, “Lord, even if I have to die with You, I will not deny You." All the disciples said the same thing too” (Matthew 26:35). Knowing the weakness of my flesh, better to say, “Lord, grant me the grace to stand when persecution comes, that I might not deny you.” Remember that Paul said, “Therefore let him who thinks he stands take heed that he does not fall” (1 Corinthians 10:12).

YOU WROTE: God chose the land of Israel for the Jews---but who has always been it's strongest defender and friend, giving more aid to it than any other country? The United States was created for a purpose, and not by "well-meaning but misguided men". Despite the evils (slavery for example) that come with men, God raised up the United States to be a defender of Israel in the last days. I really believe that.
.
MY RESPONSE: Then how do you explain Mr. Bush’s “Roadmap for Peace” accord wherein he proposes the partitioning of land that God has given to Israel and giving it to the Palestinians? But God has said,

“I will gather all the nations and bring them down to the valley of Jehoshaphat. Then I will enter into judgment with them there on behalf of My people and My inheritance, Israel, whom they have scattered among the nations; And they have divided up My land” (Joel 3:2).

God bless, Chuck

Hi Joe,

YOU WROTE: I'm not totally sure if I fully understand the argument Chuck is really making, but I recall that the Apostle Paul, in Acts, more than once, claims his Roman citizenship. In one instance he makes the claim in response to mistreatment he is receiving at the hands of others. If Paul's only citizenship was in Heaven I doubt he would have mentioned his earthly citizenship at all.

MY RESPONSE: From your response, and the response of others, Joe, you seem to have gotten the idea that I don’t believe that we should recognize our earthly citizenship. To the contrary, I respect my U.S. citizenship and avail myself of all the privileges and benefits it allows its citizens. I respect and obey any and all of its laws that do not violate my conscience before God. But my new citizenship under God began when He rescued me from the domain of darkness, and transferred me to the kingdom of His beloved Son. So, now I have dual citizenship, and my allegiance to Him takes precedence over my allegiance to a country or its flag.

YOU WROTE: Not that this is Biblical, but I have always believed the United States was created and was used by God to represent heaven in a kind of earthly form. The United States welcomes ALL who want to come, and has a diversity unlike any other country. Though not followed at all times, the Constitution is written as a Supreme Law with all citizens "created equal". Heaven will be filled with every race and culture---as is the United States.

MY RESPONSE: Joe, if the U.S. even remotely represents anything like heaven in earthly form, then I will apologize when we meet in the kingdom.

YOU WROTE: Interestingly, Our Government is split into (3) "Heads" so to speak---Executive, Judicial and Legislative. God is made up of (3) persons---not to be trite, but the Executive could represent the Father, the Judicial the Son, and the Legislative The Holy Spirit(though all co-equal in power--"balance of powers"). Of course, the (3) branches may all be coincidental, but I have always felt God was giving a message in the creation of the United States. Our money says "In God We Trust" on it, and our Pledge says "One Nation, Under God". The United States has always tried to live by "The Golden Rule", and is always the first to lend a hand to other nations.

MY RESPONSE: I find your analogies to be lacking in spiritual substance and I’m astonished that you can view them metaphorically in relationship to God’s government. Suffice it to say that I believe that “In God We Trust” engraved on our money and the words “Under God” in The Pledge of Allegiance” are the height of hypocricy from a country that has turned away from God.

YOU WROTE: Chuck says the United States was founded by "well-meaning, but misguided men". I don't believe this to be the case at all. I believe these men were led by God to a new land. I don't believe the Bible teaches that men are to sit under any form of government and "accept their fate", or all Christians would ever do is sit still---there would be no exploration, no invention, no seeking for better things. "I came that they might have life, and have it more abundantly". Men set sail for North America because of promises like that one. The "abundant life" is mainly spiritual of course, but it also refers to physical life also.

[continued below]

Chuck---

Thanks for taking the time to respond to my post. I have to say that I in no way believe the United States comes close to Heaven. I was simply saying that the United States is a "type" (in my opinion-- in all of it's earthly weaknesses) of Heaven in a sense, with all races, creeds and cultures living together in unity in one place. Of course, as we all know, the world is a flawed and sinful place, and there is no way this would represent Heaven--I simply feel it is a "type". C.S. Lewis, in one of his books--I believe it may have been the "Great Divorce", says there is an earthly London and a heavenly London--he was simply referring to the fact that the earth has many "types" and "mirrors" of heavenly things---some of the unseen being known by what is seen. If there is a place on earth that comes closest in representing what heaven would be, with the myriads of people there, it would be the United States, with all of it's blessings and freedoms. But this is infinitely less than what Heaven is, and that I fully acknowledge.

In regards to the Trinity, and the 3-fold nature of our Govenment--I in no way say this is Scriptural, or "substantively spiritual". Again, I see our Government as a "type" (though extremely weak and sinful) of God's goverment (3 persons ruling co-equally, with equal power and substance, yet in different stations). I realize fully that God's government is not a "republic" as the U.S. is---Heaven will be/and is ruled by a King--the King of Glory---but in a weak earthly sense, our Governmnet represents the best that the earth has ever brought forth. We were founded under the premise of being under God--though I agree Chuck---the U.S. has pulled back greatly from that and is more sinful than it has ever been before and in more rebellion towards God than ever before (more by what we "allow" than what we do).

When I say "the abundant life" (John 10:10) I am referring to the freedom one has from sin and death. One can live "abundantly" as they are freed from the fear and the laws of sin and death. But, while we are here, we are on an earthly plane---and if God opens a door for a better earthly life, should one settle for living under oppression? The Pilgrims and the Puritans saw an open door before them and sailed for a place where they would have more freedom. They didn't say "Well, we find ourselves under a Government that oppresses our religious freedoms, but let us accept our lot, and as pacifists do nothing?"
No---they took advantage of that open door and fled to eventually create their own Government.

You give the example of Betsy Ten Boom, and I have nothing but respect for what she and Corrie did. But I have to say--I have tremendous respect for someone like Dr. Martin Luther King Jr. also--who doesn't sit back and do nothing, but "rebels" against injustice and seeks to change the Government--not simply live under it's present precepts. Martin Luther King sought peaceful means, but it was still "rebellion"---and many, many Christians were involved in boycotting buses and fighting the racism that dominated the United States in the 50's and 60's. That helped change America tremendously. Was Dr. King "misguided"? Without people like him with their "dreams" and action, no change would ever take place. Jesus said to "turn the other cheek"---but does this mean that when someone attacks unjustly we say "here is my other cheek--do anything you want--take everything and do what you will with my family"? I believe there is a time when Christians, if they really care about others, will take action--even physical action, to liberate from evil. I believe Dietrich Bonhoefer reflects this. Yes---the assassination attempt failed, but we have no idea how this attempt effected Hitler psychologically--or how it may have effected his decision making thereafter. Did he feel invincible, or did it scare the daylights out of him? Moammar Khaddafi had bombs dropped 100's of yards from his house, killing part of his family. What did Khaddafi do after Reagan bombed him? We stopped hearing about him---it frightened him terribly. If Ronald Reagan (who claimed to be a Christian) simply "accepted his lot" he never would have bombed Khaddafi.

The movie "Sgt. York" is about the Medal of Honor winner from World War 1---a devout Christian, who at first was going to be a pacifist. But from reading the Bible, he changed his mind, and wound up being one of the most decorated military men of World War 1--showing extreme bravery and single-handedly capturing hundreds of enemy soldiers.

Read Ecclesiastes chapter 3 "To everything there is a season, and a time to every purpose under heaven.....A time for war and a time for peace". Sometimes Christians have to ask "if I don't do this who will?" when facing injustice and suffering and evil. Do we "turn the other cheek" as we are led away to concentration camps? Though I admire the Ten Booms, I also admire a Bonhoeffer who would stand up against evil, take the responsibility to "do something" upon himself, and greatly think of others who could be libertated should the assassination attempt succeed. I believe that is also a Christian attitude.

Finally, despite Bush's plan to give some land to Palestine, the United States has been Israel's strongest ally since it's creation in 1948. This cannot be denied. Israel has literally been carried "by the wings of an eagle" (The U.S. symbol being the eagle of course), and much of it's strength being from huge donations of money from the U.S. Of course, Israel would never fall even if the U.S. weren't there, as God has promised she never will. But, I believe the Lord has greatly used the U.S. in helping and keeping his people in their land up to date.

Thanks again for your responses Chuck---and truly appreciate your posts. In the end, were all one in Christ. God bless you.

--Joe

________________________________________
Hi Joe,

YOU WROTE: Chuck---

One point I forgot to make was your reference that perhaps Hitler grew stronger and people would think God had been "thwarted" in his attempt to assassinate this evil man--that Dietrich Bonhoefer was mislead in being part of an assassination attempt.

We all know God cannot be thwarted in anything he does (and I know that is the point you are making--whatever God chooses to do he can do)---but why an assassination attempt upon an evil man failed, while an assassination attempt upon a good man (Martin Luther King Jr.---"good" in the sense that he was a Christian--full of failings, but considered cleansed by Jesus Christ) succeeded we just do not know. Was God "thwarted" in his attempt to Protect Martin Luther King Jr FROM assassination? Most definitely not. But because the assassination attempt upon Hitler failed is no reason to believe that Dietrich Bonhoefer was not led by the Lord to make the attempt. Perhaps the very attempt, with God knowing the outcome, was orchestrated by the Lord--Dietrich Bonhoefer being led to do so. Who really knows? Our thoughts are not his thoughts nor our ways his ways---they are past finding out.

--Joe

MY RESPONSE: A point well taken. Joe, and certainly one we must consider. My only question is, how do we reconcile an assasination attempt with Romans 12:19 – “Never take your own revenge, beloved, but leave room for the wrath of God, for it is written, " VENGEANCE IS MINE, I WILL REPAY," says the Lord.”
On what basis do we justify murder, Joe? Wouldn’t we have to determine how evil a person must be in order to justify our disobeying a command of God. Six million Jews slaughtered? Three million? One million? A hundred? Fifty? One? I’m not trying to belittle the magnitude of Hitler’s crime, but if I am going to set aside God’s command, I’d better be able to establish some sort of criteria for doing so.

I’ll address your other comments in another post.

God bless, Chuck

Chuck---

Thanks for the post once again.

You quoted in regards to us taking matters into our own hands:

Never take your own revenge, beloved, but leave room for the wrath of God, for it is written, " VENGEANCE IS MINE, I WILL REPAY," says the Lord.”

I'm not so sure that attempting an assassination upon a very evil man would be considered "revenge". I think sometimes we have to be very careful we don't pigeon-hole a whole concept based on one verse of Scripture, or in keeping the "letter of the law", forget mercy and concern for others.

As an example, the Jehovah's Witnesses take a verse of Scripture about "eating blood" and apply this to blood transfusions. Because they are so legalistically attuned to "keeping the letter of the law" and not offending Jehovah thereby, they will allow little children to die in the hospital who desperately need blood, and feel they have "done the will of God" by not allowing the transfusion.

Both in the Old(the priests) and New Testaments(the Pharisees) God chastises leaders about keeping the Law but forgetting mercy and judgment. Would a merciful and loving God really be pleased with the death of a little child, and praise the parents for turning away the transfusion that could have saved it? Who could believe such a thing? Someone who has misinterpreted scripture, forgotten mercy and judgment, and does not know the heart of God.

Suppose one was a Christian living in Iran and new that Amahdinejad the President was shortly going to unleash a weapon that would kill thousands of people. Suppose you were close enough to get to him---to actually assassinate him and prevent this. Would one sit back and say "well, the Bible says , 'Never take your own revenge, beloved, but leave room for the wrath of God, for it is written, Vengeance is Mine, I will repay, says the Lord', and not do anything, or even try?? Would you live by the "letter of the law", and sit content that you are "obeying God" (though it may be your own interpretation of that verse) or would you think of the lives of thousands of people and their imminent deaths? Would God be pleased with you for doing nothing, or would He be pleased that you thought of others and attempted to save their lives? What kind of God do we serve? I believe that is why Dietrich Bonhoeffer was in on the "attempt" on Hitler's life---he wanted to try to end the evil he saw all around him.

As another example of "living by the letter" the Bible says "I am the Lord that heals you" (Exodus 15:26)--what if we took that verse and said "I will not go to doctors because God will heal me--it says so in the Bible". And some groups actually don't go to doctors due to the misinterpretation of scripture such as this. But we all know that God has given brains and reason to man, to become scientists and doctors, so that they may discover the remedies God has placed on earth for man's healing and health. Truly, God can heal supernaturally, but he usually expects us to use the resources he has given--he heals us through MAN, using what God has created on the earth as remedies. It would be stupid not to avail ourselves of the healing God has given by natural means.

So, when God says to "love the fatherless, protect the widows" and "love your neighbor as yourself" would he expect you not to give your all to protect them? Would he want you to "live by the letter" and sit back and do nothing as oppressors wreak havoc on the poor and weak? Are the words "love your neighbor as yourself" passive words? If you lived in Iran and "loved your neighbor as yourself" and had the chance to protect them, and to end horrible evil, what would you do? Would you "live by the letter" or live by love and action? Would God be pleased that you did nothing, or would he be pleased that you put others before yourself and wanted to protect them?

You said:

On what basis do we justify murder, Joe? Wouldn’t we have to determine how evil a person must be in order to justify our disobeying a command of God. Six million Jews slaughtered? Three million? One million? A hundred? Fifty? One? I’m not trying to belittle the magnitude of Hitler’s crime, but if I am going to set aside God’s command, I’d better be able to establish some sort of criteria for doing so.

David set aside God's command when he ate the temple bread, and Jesus set aside God's command when he healed on the Sabbath. The Pharisees were angry Jesus healed on the Sabbath and Jesus said "which one of you having an ox fall into a pit on the Sabbath would not have mercy on the animal and save it? And should not I have mercy on a woman who has been crippled for 38 years?" (paraphrase). The Pharisees were all about keeping the letter of the law, but had forgotten all about Lovingkindness, Justice and Mercy. "I am the Lord which exercise Lovingkindness, Justice and Mercy in the earth, for in these things I delight, saith the Lord" (Jer. 9:24).

I believe the criteria you are asking for is this: "Love the Lord your God with all of your heart, and love your neighbor as yourself".

Joe,

Excellent points.

I would like to add that defending the weak and helpless from evil is not necessarily "vengeance" at all. In the ancient world and even today among primitive peoples the concept of blood guilt is very real. If someone has killed a family member, the family is required to avenge them. Most societies nowadays use monetary payments or payments in kind.

Defense of the weak and helpless can come into play before any violent act is committed. If I saw a man heading for my wife or kid with a weapon, I would intervene with all the force in my power in an attempt to prevent
the harmful act.

Chuck,

You said:

MY RESPONSE: From your response, and the response of others, Joe, you seem to have gotten the idea that I don’t believe that we should recognize our earthly citizenship. To the contrary, I respect my U.S. citizenship and avail myself of all the privileges and benefits it allows its citizens. I respect and obey any and all of its laws that do not violate my conscience before God. But my new citizenship under God began when He rescued me from the domain of darkness, and transferred me to the kingdom of His beloved Son. So, now I have dual citizenship, and my allegiance to Him takes precedence over my allegiance to a country or its flag

It appears to me that this is about what we ALL believe.

So, what is the basis for your objection to the Iraq war? Is is that you are against all violence, ie, that you are a pacifist?

Tom Maddux

Chuck----

I'll answer that by giving two small examples:

1)Someone in the office says something untrue about you causing you to be "written up" for something you were not responible for. You think inside "I'm going to get that guy! He's going to pay for that!!" This is a feeling of vengeance. You were wronged, but you want to exact vengeance on the person for what they have done to you. You want to see them pay for it. God says not to act on it, but to give it to him and he will repay in His own way.
That is basically what a feeling or sense of vengeance is(on a human scale), and the response one thinks of usually comes from hatred and bitterness. God says this is wrong---He will repay. God will repay in just judgment for the evil which has been done--his vengeance will come from righteous hatred of evil.

2)Someone in your office constantly picks on an overweight person in the office, making fun of them, and making their life a living hell. They are so shy, and have such low self-esteem, they put up with it and never say anything. You think inside "This isn't right. Jesus said to "love your neighbor as yourself". If I were being treated that way how would I want others to respond?" The next time you see the person picking on this weaker person, in righteous indignation, you confront them and ask them to stop (most people who pick on others are cowards, and usually are pointing out the weaknesses of others due their own weaknesses and faults. They will usually cease when confronted). You stand up for the weaker person and also befriend them.
This is "righteous indignation"--this is love in action when one sees an injustice.

Again, these are poor analogies, and on a far smaller scale than an assassination, but perhaps it explains a bit where I am coming from.

When Dietrich Bonhoeffer was in on the attempt to assassinate Hitler, he was not reacting from a heart filled with vengeance, but from a heart of righteous indignation. He was thinking of all the people he could spare greater pain and suffering, by ridding their country of an evil man. God says "vengeance is mine" but he never says all "righteous indignation" is his alone---he wants and expects us to "act" in a righteous manner, and to help and protect our neighbors. God is not a pacifist.

Joe,

YOU WROTE:
Chuck----I'll answer that by giving two small examples:

1)Someone in the office says something untrue about you causing you to be "written up" for something you were not responible for. You think inside "I'm going to get that guy! He's going to pay for that!!" This is a feeling of vengeance. You were wronged, but you want to exact vengeance on the person for what they have done to you. You want to see them pay for it. God says not to act on it, but to give it to him and he will repay in His own way.
That is basically what a feeling or sense of vengeance is(on a human scale), and the response one thinks of usually comes from hatred and bitterness. God says this is wrong---He will repay. God will repay in just judgment for the evil which has been done--his vengeance will come from righteous hatred of evil.

MY RESPONSE: You help make my point, Joe. What I deduce from your reasoning is that God is saying “Don’t act on it, unless it is a heinous crime, like killing 6 million Jews.”
At what point is the crime so severe that I can justify acting on it?

2)Someone in your office constantly picks on an overweight person in the office, making fun of them, and making their life a living hell. They are so shy, and have such low self-esteem, they put up with it and never say anything. You think inside "This isn't right. Jesus said to "love your neighbor as yourself". If I were being treated that way how would I want others to respond?" The next time you see the person picking on this weaker person, in righteous indignation, you confront them and ask them to stop (most people who pick on others are cowards, and usually are pointing out the weaknesses of others due their own weaknesses and faults. They will usually cease when confronted). You stand up for the weaker person and also befriend them.
This is "righteous indignation"--this is love in action when one sees an injustice.

MY RESPONSE: Yoiur logic escapes me, Joe. For what would you say if I said, ”this guy is an evil person, so I am going to get rid of him.” I also find several others who agree with me and we carry out a plot to murder him. According to your reasoning, why would we not be justified? Who decides?

YOU WROTE: Again, these are poor analogies, and on a far smaller scale than an assassination, but perhaps it explains a bit where I am coming from.

When Dietrich Bonhoeffer was in on the attempt to assassinate Hitler, he was not reacting from a heart filled with vengeance, but from a heart of righteous indignation. He was thinking of all the people he could spare greater pain and suffering, by ridding their country of an evil man. God says "vengeance is mine" but he never says all "righteous indignation" is his alone---he wants and expects us to "act" in a righteous manner, and to help and protect our neighbors. God is not a pacifist.

MY RESPONSE: Again, I would have to ask, “What is the criteria for deciding when it is OK to set aside a command of God. I’m sure that there are many people today who would agree that it would be OK to assassinate President Bush since they believe he is responsible for the deaths of thousands of innocent people , including American service men.

God bless, Chuck

Tom,

I had written the following to Joe:

From your response, and the response of others, Joe, you seem to have gotten the idea that I don’t believe that we should recognize our earthly citizenship. To the contrary, I respect my U.S. citizenship and avail myself of all the privileges and benefits it allows its citizens. I respect and obey any and all of its laws that do not violate my conscience before God. But my new citizenship under God began when He rescued me from the domain of darkness, and transferred me to the kingdom of His beloved Son. So, now I have dual citizenship, and my allegiance to Him takes precedence over my allegiance to a country or its flag

Tom, you responded as follows: It appears to me that this is about what we ALL believe.

MY RESPONSE: Good, now we can go on. I thought I had explained this pretty thoroughly in previous posts.

YOU WROTE: So, what is the basis for your objection to the Iraq war? Is is that you are against all violence, ie, that you are a pacifist?

Tom Maddux

MY RESPONSE: Again, Tom, I have given my objection in previous posts Nos. 113, 123, 127, 128. I won’t bore you with repeating what I have already said. I haven’t changed my thinking, but will listen to your reasoning.
As for your question as to whether I am a “pacifist,” I don't particularly like labels since they mean different things to different people. but I guess I would say, “yes.” How would you label yourself, Tom?

God bless, Chuck

Chuck---

Apparently you are not seeing the difference between vengeance and righteous indignation. All terrorist acts are out of "vengeance". They kill hundreds of innocent people out of hatred, to "get back at" the United States for wrongs, or supposed wrongs, or for "offending" the god of Islam.

You said:
Yoiur logic escapes me, Joe. For what would you say if I said, ”this guy is an evil person, so I am going to get rid of him.” I also find several others who agree with me and we carry out a plot to murder him. According to your reasoning, why would we not be justified? Who decides?

Why would I want to murder this guy? All this guy (as I stated in my example) is doing is insulting someone--I am standing up to him not in vengeance, but in a righteous indignation for him to stop harming another. However, if this same person (and I knew it) was walking towards the building with an AK-47 drawn and ready to kill people, I would be completely justified (if I had a gun) in shooting him to death before he kills several people. In the same vein, if I knew the President of Iran was seriously intent on killing thousands of people, I would be justified in attempting to assassinate him--this would not be out of vengeance, but out of concern for others. I'm not sure why my "logic is escaping you"--I believe it is easy to understand.

There is a big difference between acting in "vengeance" out of hatred, and acting out of concern for others and preventing great harm.

You said:
MY RESPONSE: Again, I would have to ask, “What is the criteria for deciding when it is OK to set aside a command of God. I’m sure that there are many people today who would agree that it would be OK to assassinate President Bush since they believe he is responsible for the deaths of thousands of innocent people , including American service men.
[/color]

This is truly very poor logic. Bush has never said he wants to "wipe Israel off of the map" or said that the "Holocaust never happened". He is not making terrorist threats against other people. If Bush were to come out and say "I want to kill as many Iraqi's as possible and I am planning to nuke them very soon". And then he began to show signs that he was absolutely serious about this, and was going to kill thousands of innocent people, not to combat terrorism, but for the sake of killing Iraqis, then assassination might be warranted (though in the US as you know, he would be removed or impeached far before it ever came to a need for assassination).

Hitler wanted to kill jews because they were jews. He wasn't intervening in a country to remove a dictator and combat terrorism, he wanted to conquer the world for Germany. There is a huge difference between a President Bush (no matter how much you may despise or disagree with him) and a person like Adolf Hitler. But even then, as I mentioned, Dietrich Bonhoeffer was not acting in vengeance, but in an effort to PREVENT further evil against innocent people when he got involved in the attempt to assassinate Hitler.

And once again, I must ask what command of God you are referring to? If your interpretation of "Vengenace is mine saith the Lord" is to be a pacifist even when we could try to stop great evil, I would have to say I disagree with your interpretation. Again, I must mention the Pharisees in Jesus' day. They were certain that Jesus was breaking the law by healing on the Sabbath, and they were correct in this case--he was breaking the Law. They were so strict in their "interpretation" of the Law that they would rather see people continue suffering in their infirmities, rather than be healed, and break a cardinal rule of their Law. They thought somehow they were pleasing God by enforcing "rules", yet they were laying aside love, mercy, and forgiveness for their neighbors. Imagine if one were so strict in their interpretation of Scripture and "obeying" that interpretation that they forgot what it meant to "love our neighbor" and "protect the widows and be a father to the fatherless"? Imagine if one believed that God loved the command more than the people who the command was given to?

NEWS FLASH: "Today, President Amahdinejab of Iran made good on his threat to kill thousands of "infidels", sending missiles into several air bases and embassies throughout the Middle East. Casualties are tremendous, but there is no word yet as to how many have died. In a strange twist, his personal secretary, a Christian, had the means to kill Amahdinejab before he pushed the buttons, but did nothing. "The Bible says 'Thou shalt not Kill' and also "Vengeance is Mine, saith the Lord" said Ahmed Rahmedan, the secretary and assistant, "and I did not want to disobey a commandment of the Lord" he added. Asked why he did not act on an assassination attempt when he could have saved many lives, Rahmedan said "That would be setting aside God's command. Only he takes vengeance, and I do not want to displease him" he said. We will have further news later on this most tragic event.

: Joe Sperling April 11, 2007, 10:38:24 PM

Chuck---

NEWS FLASH: "Today, President Amahdinejab of Iran made good on his threat to kill thousands of "infidels", sending missiles into several air bases and embassies throughout the Middle East. Casualties are tremendous, but there is no word yet as to how many have died. In a strange twist, his personal secretary, a Christian, had the means to kill Amahdinejab before he pushed the buttons, but did nothing. "The Bible says 'Thou shalt not Kill' and also "Vengeance is Mine, saith the Lord" said Ahmed Rahmedan, the secretary and assistant, "and I did not want to disobey a commandment of the Lord" he added. Asked why he did not act on an assassination attempt when he could have saved many lives, Rahmedan said "That would be setting aside God's command. Only he takes vengeance, and I do not want to displease him" he said. We will have further news later on this most tragic event.[/color]

This is really too much! Is this how we are to respond if the threat is to someone in our immediate family? We would rush to protect them and do whatever we needed to do to stop the threat to them. At least I would.

The immediate family scenario is a small-scale picture of the larger picture of what is going on in Iraq, in my opinion. They state that they hate jews and christians and are continually making plans that reflect this hatred. We stand by and do nothing? You've got to be kidding.

Joe and Moonflower,

NEWSFLASH: Now it came about that the nation of Iran sought to make war against the United States. together with some of the Syrians and Palestinians
Then some came and reported to President Bush, saying, "Ahmadinejad is preparing to send nuclear missiles against America.
President Bush was afraid and turned his attention to seek the LORD, and proclaimed a fast throughout all the country.
So Americans gathered together to seek help from the LORD; they even came from all the cities of New York and Los Angeles and Chicago to seek the LORD.
Then President Bush stood in the assembly of the Congress and Senate, and he said, "O LORD, the God of our fathers, are You not God in the heavens? And are You not ruler over all the kingdoms of the nations? Power and might are in Your hand so that no one can stand against You.
"Did You not, O our God, bring us to this land in order for us to form a more perfect union?
We have lived in it, and have built You many churches for Your name, saying,
'Should evil come upon us, the sword, or judgment, or pestilence, or famine, we will stand in this land and before You (for Your name is in this land) and cry to You in our distress, and You will hear and deliver us.'
"Now behold, the Iranians and Syrians and Palestinians whom we have aided in past; see how they are rewarding us by coming to destroy our land and your people.
"O our God, will You not judge them? For we are powerless before this great multitude who are coming against us; nor do we know what to do, but our eyes are on You."
All America was standing before the LORD, with their infants, their wives and their children.
Then in the midst of the assembly the Spirit of the LORD came upon Vice President Cheney
and he said, "Listen, all citizens of the United States and President Bush: thus says the LORD to you, 'Do not fear or be dismayed because of these terrible missles, for the battle is not yours but God's.
'You need not fight in this battle; station yourselves, stand and see the salvation of the LORD on your behalf, O America ' Do not fear or be dismayed; tomorrow go out to face them, for the LORD is with you."
President Bush bowed his head with his face to the ground, and all America fell down before the LORD, worshiping the LORD.
The Californians and the New Yorkers stood up to praise the LORD God of Israel, with a very loud voice.
They rose early in the morning and went to the Capitol Building and when they went out, President Bush stood and said, "Listen to me, fellow citizens,, put your trust in the LORD your God and you will be established. Put your trust in the country that was founded on His principles and in its leaders."
When he had consulted with the people, he appointed those who sang to the LORD and those who praised Him in government buildings, as they went out before the Senators and Congressmen, "Give thanks to the LORD, for His lovingkindness is everlasting."
When they began singing and praising, the LORD established missile shields so that many were destroyed in the air and others were directed back to where they had been launched..
Then the Iranians became confused and rose up against the Syrians and Palestinians destroying them completely; and when they had finished with the Syrians and Palestinians they helped to destroy one another.
When the American Generals came to the lookout of the desert, they looked toward the multitude, and behold, they were corpses lying on the ground, and no one had escaped.
When American forces came to take their spoil, they found much among them, including goods, garments and valuable things which they took for themselves, more than they could carry. And they were three days taking the spoil because there was so much.
Then on the fourth day they assembled in Washington
Every man of California, and New York returned with President Bush at their head, returning to the U.S. with joy, for the LORD had made them to rejoice over their enemies.
They came to Washington with harps, lyres and trumpets to the house of the LORD.
And the dread of God was on all the kingdoms of the lands when they heard that the LORD had fought against the enemies of America.
So the United States was at peace, for their God gave them rest on all sides.
Now President Bush reigned over America. He was forty five years old when he became President, and he remained in office for 20 years, because the people wanted him to be their President

Well, Joe, my newsflash may sound a bit more far fetched than yours, but if you will take the time to read 2 Chronicles 20, you will see that God does indeed protect the righteous.
Obviously I am being facetious in my newsflash, since my portrayal of Mr. Bush and the American people is slightly exaggerated.

And have you thought of the possibility that in your own scenario God might be saying, “I have tolerated this disobedience nation for too long. They have slaughtered unborn children, defiled themselves with ever kind of immorality and debauchery, squandered the good things I allowed them to have. I gave them ample warning that I am angry with them, so that they might repent, but they would not take heed. So now, I shall use an evil man to punish them for their unrighteousness. Many righteous ones will die with the unrighteous, but they shall be with me I my everlasting kingdom.”

God bless, Chuck

Chuck----

I like your scenario, and it would be a great one if everyone in the United States believed in the God of Israel. I believe George Bush already has prayed to God many times for assistance in the Iraq matter though. And since this is the present time, and we are not the nation of Israel, we need to be more realistic.

You said (in the prayer you mention below):
O our God, will You not judge them? For we are powerless before this great multitude who are coming against us; nor do we know what to do, but our eyes are on You."

The fact is we are NOT powerless before this enemy, because God ALREADY has given the United States great might and power to help defend ourselves and Israel. This comes from the many prayers ALREADY made by millions of Christians.

Let me give another small analogy: Your child contracts a terrible cold. You begin to pray "O our God, will you not judge this malady? For the child is powerless before this disease that is attacking him, nor do we know what to do, but our eyes are on you". You are to be admired for praying and believing God, but I believe the Lord's answer might be: "Why don't you take him to the doctor for a shot of pennicillin? I have provided this antidote by showing it to intelligent men of medicine so that when an outbreak such as this occurs, you will be able to have the resources to combat it". In the same manner, if a prayer was made concerning Syria and Iran, God would say: "I have already provided the resources through great technology gained through the scientists and inventors I have given you. I have already provided defense due to the many prayers already offered by millions of Christians in America". Of course, I am not saying we should not pray to God or seek his help----but often he has ALREADY provided the help---we just need to avail ourselves of it!

NEWSFLASH: As a group stood upon the Capitol steps praying and beseeching God to "do something" about the current threat, the secretary and assistant to Amahdinejab, Ahmed Rahmedan, decided people were more important to God than his own "supposed" obedience to a command, and he assassinated Amahdinejab before he could press the buttons. "As Jesus said, 'the Father already knows what we have need of before we ask him'. He had already provided an answer to the situation, I was just too stubborn to realize that I, myself, might be that answer" said Rahmedan. Rahmedan escaped those pursuing him,and was greeted with great praise for the thousands of lives he most assuredly saved in the process.

Moonflower: I hope by reading the posts you understand I am not saying we do nothing---just the opposite. My argument is that we SHOULD confront evil and make every attempt to battle it, even if doing so mighy require radical measures, such as Dietrich Bonhoeffer's joining a conspiracy to assassinate Hitler. --JS

: Chuck Miller April 12, 2007, 06:37:04 PM

Moonflower,

YOU ASKED: "Are you saying that God's people never went to war?"

MY RESPONSE: No, but had they been obedient they never would have had to for God said,

1"Now it shall be, if you diligently obey the LORD your God, being careful to do all His commandments which I command you today, the LORD your God will set you high above all the nations of the earth.

2"All these blessings will come upon you and overtake you if you obey the LORD your God:

3"Blessed shall you be in the city, and blessed shall you be in the country.

4"Blessed shall be the offspring of your body and the produce of your ground and the offspring of your beasts, the increase of your herd and the young of your flock.

5"Blessed shall be your basket and your kneading bowl.

6"Blessed shall you be when you come in, and blessed shall you be when you go out.

7"The LORD shall cause your enemies who rise up against you to be defeated before you; they will come out against you one way and will flee before you seven ways.

Deuteronomy 28:1-7

God bless, Chuck

Chuck,

These verses come from the Deuteronomic Covenant. This was a conditional covenant made between Jehovah and the nation of Isreal just before they entered the land. There is no Biblical, or for that matter historical, evidence that any other nation has ever entered into such a covenant with God.

So, the promises you quote simply do not apply to the USA, or any other modern nation.

Blessings,

Tom Maddux

Explorer,

YOU WROTE:
Hi Chuck,

I would also add to Tom's comments below that in the verses that you quote, I don't see where it actually says that they wouldn't have to go to war? It just states, "your enemies who rise up against you to be defeated before you". Do you somehow get from that that they were all sitting down while it happened? Sorry, please explain the connection.

Thanks. Explorer

MY RESPONSE: Explorer,
The verse reads: "The LORD shall cause your enemies who rise up against you to be defeated before you; they will come out against you one way and will flee before you seven ways.”
So, I would say yes, and we see from, 2 Chronicles 20 that the Lord said:

15 "Listen, all Judah and the inhabitants of Jerusalem and King Jehoshaphat: thus says the LORD to you, 'Do not fear or be dismayed because of this great multitude, for the battle is not yours but God's.
16'Tomorrow go down against them. Behold, they will come up by the ascent of Ziz, and you will find them at the end of the valley in front of the wilderness of Jeruel.
17'You need not fight in this battle; station yourselves, stand and see the salvation of the LORD on your behalf, O Judah and Jerusalem ' Do not fear or be dismayed; tomorrow go out to face them, for the LORD is with you."

And we see the results:

29And the dread of God was on all the kingdoms of the lands when they heard that the LORD had fought against the enemies of Israel.
30So the kingdom of Jehoshaphat was at peace, for his God gave him rest on all sides.

God bless, Chuck

Tom,

YOU WROTE: Chuck,

These verses [Deuteronomy 28:1-7] come from the Deuteronomic Covenant. This was a conditional covenant made between Jehovah and the nation of Isreal just before they entered the land. There is no Biblical, or for that matter historical, evidence that any other nation has ever entered into such a covenant with God.

So, the promises you quote simply do not apply to the USA, or any other modern nation.

Blessings,

Tom Maddux

MY RESPONSE: Tom, You are right on both counts. However, the events in 2 Chronicles 20 took place after the Israelites had broken the covenant that God had made with them in Deuteronomy 28.
You are also right about the verses not applying to the U.S. You certainly had to understand that I was speaking facetiously, since I was juxtaposing a ridiculously hypothetical situation into the very real events of 2 Chronicles 20. But let’s imagine for a moment that my juxtaposition was true - that we were a righteous, God-fearing nation, led by a righteous, God- fearing President who put his trust completely in the Lord. Is not the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob the same God of Tom Maddox and Chuck Miller and Joe Sperling, Mark C, Moonflower and Explorer? And would He not hear the cry of His righteous ones and deliver us from the wrath of the evil Ahmadinejad? And if He didn’t, would we be willing to say in the spirit of Shadrach, Meshach and Abed-nego. “But, O’God, if you do not deliver us from this fiery ordeal, you are still our God and we know that we are your people.”

Trust in the LORD with all your heart
And do not lean on your own understanding.
In all your ways acknowledge Him,
And He will make your paths straight. Proverbs 3:5-6

God bless, Chuck

Chuck,

You said:

"But let’s imagine for a moment that my juxtaposition was true - that we were a righteous, God-fearing nation, led by a righteous, God- fearing President who put his trust completely in the Lord. Is not the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob the same God of Tom Maddox and Chuck Miller and Joe Sperling, Mark C, Moonflower and Explorer? And would He not hear the cry of His righteous ones and deliver us from the wrath of the evil Ahmadinejad? And if He didn’t, would we be willing to say in the spirit of Shadrach, Meshach and Abed-nego. “But, O’God, if you do not deliver us from this fiery ordeal, you are still our God and we know that we are your people.”

1. First of all, what exactly is a righteous, God fearing nation"? A nation without sinners? A nation where 100% of the citizens are born again and walking with God? Would God settle for 95%? 90%? or what???

Last time I checked, Israel was a theocracy, and as long as the government and priesthood were diligent to attempt to force the people to obey the law pretty well, that was adequate. I remember one verse where God was honoring the king even though he did not take all the high places away.

We are not a theocracy, we have no earthly priesthood, and most of the Law is not codified in our laws. So, how can we know if we are being godly enough?

2. You are reasoning in the same manner the Pentescostals do. They reason, "since Jesus is the same yesterday, today, and forever, what we are doing in our churches is the same as the early church.

The problem is that the verse refers to the unchanging divine nature of the Lord Jesus, not to God's particular way of working at a certain point in history. The former is unchanging. The latter is not.

3. What you offer in support of your position is a series of questions. How convincing is this: Is not Mark Campbell capable of shoplifting? Does he not regularly enter stores? Does he not have many of the things found in those stores in his possession?

This is, of course, absurd. No one would accept this as any indication of Mark's purported guilt at all. What would be necessary is positive evidence that he had actually stolen something.

So, Chuck, you need to actually answer your own questions and then offer your answers in support of your position. If you can't answer the questions with any certainty, the best you or anyone else could do is "perhaps".

4. Finally, remember that many, many godly saints have cried out to God for deliverance, and have not been delivered. Seems to me that God's purposes are the deciding factor in the histories of nations.

Blessings,

Tom Maddux

Explorer,

YOU WROTE:
Hi Chuck,

I would also add to Tom's comments below that in the verses that you quote, I don't see where it actually says that they wouldn't have to go to war? It just states, "your enemies who rise up against you to be defeated before you". Do you somehow get from that that they were all sitting down while it happened? Sorry, please explain the connection.

Thanks. Explorer

MY RESPONSE: Explorer,
Sorry it has taken me so long to get back to you.
Notice that the entire verse reads: "The LORD shall cause your enemies who rise up against you to be defeated before you; they will come out against you one way and will flee before you seven ways.”
So, I would say yes, I believe they were mere bystanders as the Lord delivered them. We see from, 2 Chronicles 20 that the Lord said:
15 "Listen, all Judah and the inhabitants of Jerusalem and King Jehoshaphat: thus says the LORD to you, 'Do not fear or be dismayed because of this great multitude, for the battle is not yours but God's.
16'Tomorrow go down against them. Behold, they will come up by the ascent of Ziz, and you will find them at the end of the valley in front of the wilderness of Jeruel.
17'You need not fight in this battle; station yourselves, stand and see the salvation of the LORD on your behalf, O Judah and Jerusalem ' Do not fear or be dismayed; tomorrow go out to face them, for the LORD is with you."

And we see the results:

29And the dread of God was on all the kingdoms of the lands when they heard that the LORD had fought against the enemies of Israel.
30So the kingdom of Jehoshaphat was at peace, for his God gave him rest on all sides.

God bless, Chuck

Joe,

Without going line by line through your last 3 posts, I think I can best sum up my position as follows:

How would you answer someone who asks: “What if God (for whatever reason) had purposed to bring great persecution upon His people, the Israelites, and decided to raise up an evil Pharoah to do so. And what if His intent was to demonstrate His power in him and that His name might be proclaimed throughout the whole earth (Romans 9:17)? And what if Moses had decided to kill evil Pharoah ? Would he have been justified in trying to spare God’s people from the terrible oppression they were suffering, or would he have inadvertently been trying to thwart God’s plan? God tells us:

"For My thoughts are not your thoughts,
Nor are your ways My ways," declares the LORD. (Isaiah 55:8)

Unless we are perfectly tuned into God’s plan for bringing about His purpose for the people on this earth , aren’t we being presumptuous to suppose that we can act upon our feelings, whether it be out of “revenge” or from “righteous indignation.”
I don’t know exactly what is God’s plan for this country. He may very well intend to bring it to its knees by the hand of an evil man such as Ahmadinejad. I don’t know. Do you, Joe?
And please don’t insinuate that I’m saying, “We are just supposed to sit around and do nothing.” We are ambassadors for Christ and we have a commission to make disciples of all the nations. We are to be salt and light in a dark world.

Incidentally Joe, don’t you suppose that Jesus knew that after His death, His followers would be persecuted and slaughtered by the Romans. He even told them that they would be blessed for being persecuted for the sake of righteousness and that their reward in heaven would be great. Would you suggest that Jesus didn’t have a concern for His followers? And do you have any doubt that He could have appealed to His Father, and He would have at once put at His disposal more than twelve legions of angels?

Just as an aside, Joe, you seem to be of the opinion that the U.S. has been intent on stopping great evil in the world, however, if you will recall, the United States didn’t exhibit any great desire to try to stop Hitler when he invaded Poland, Holland, Belgium and France and was mercilessly bombing England. The pacifist U.S. never entered the war in Europe until Germany declared war on this country in 1941 after the Japanese attacked Pearl Harbor.

You seem to want to equate my interpretation of Romans 12:19 with pharisaism, Joe. O.K., but remember that Moses didn’t take God at His word and his ”righteous indignation” caused him to strike the rock instead of speaking to it and because of it, he lost the privilege of leading the people into the land (Numbers 20:11). And let’s not forget how God struck down Uzzah for touching the Ark, when God had instructed that only the priests were permitted to do so (1 Samuel 6:6-7). One might even say that God was legalistic when it came to His commands.
I would want to be absolutely sure that God condones killing and assassination before I would make such dogmatic assertions, Joe. Otherwise, you might find yourself having to apologize to the little Iranian pacifist, Rahmedan

God bless,

Chuck

Chuck----

I appreciate your posts. But you have a tendency to equate the United States with Israel. Though their are many Christians and Jews in the U.S. we cannot say that the United States are "God's People". I do believe He has greatly blessed the U.S. though due to the believing population, prayers, and the efforts of the U.S. in helping the less fortunate around the world, and defending those being oppressed.

The United States is made up of selfish men (as are all countries of the world), and true, the U.S. did not enter World War 2 until we were directly attacked by Japan. Perhaps if the U.S. had entered earlier, the war may have ended differently. Who knows? The point I was making before is that the U.S. has given more to help other countries through charity and defense than any other country.

Regarding Moses, he in "revenge" did kill an Egyptian for abusing Jews. This "revenge" killing was totally wrong as the Bible declares. True, God had a "plan" for "his people Israel", and did indeed raise up Pharaoh and Moses, to show his glory for all time. God told Moses that in using a series of plagues he would eventually free Israel. But again, Chuck, I do have to ask the question: If Moses had overheard Pharaoh say "At my command, in the morning, I will slaughter all of the Israelites beginning with the youngest" and he had an opportunity to kill Pharaoh before he could accomplish this horrible act, would he be warranted in killing Pharaoh to protect thousands of Israelites? I know you will say "God would tell him what to do"--and He would as he had ALREADY told Moses he had a SPECIFIC plan in raising him up to address Pharaoh. But if Moses knew nothing, and only had a short time to act, would God be displeased with Moses for doing this, or would he be pleased with Moses for loving the people of Israel so much? Of course we are talking Law and Grace, but we are also talking about the heart of God.

But let's jump forward to today. We do not know God's SPECIFIC plan for America, or for any country for that matter. If another Pharaoh, in the form of Amahdinejab, not only threatens the Jews, but the whole world with his speeches, what are we to do? Again, if Amahdinejab said "In the morning, at my command, I will slaughter the infidels", and we had the opportunity to stop him through assassination, would we do nothing? Would we say "As in the days of Moses, God had a plan. He must have a plan here also. Perhaps he has raised this man up to bring persecution on the U.S. and on the world to turn us back to himself. I will do nothing and trust that God's Will will be done". ?

But we, unlike Moses, would have no idea what God's purpose is or what he is going to do. He hasn't told us he is going to use Amahdinejab and WILL spare the U.S. and others (he told Moses that Israel for sure would be freed after the tests he put upon Pharaoh--Moses KNEW that his people WOULD be freed). We have no such information. What if God's will was for you to stop him since you have the opportunity? Would it be "presumption" to try to save the lives of thousands of people? None of us can be "perfectly attuned to God's plan on this earth" ,that's why we must look to the heart of God and to His Word. He says to be a "father to the fatherless, and protect the widow". He says to "Love our neighbor as ourself" (to do for someone else what we would have them do for us). We cannot say "none of us are perfectly attuned to the will of God on this earth, aren't we being presumptuous to suppose that we can act upon our feelings, whether it be out of "revenge" or from "righteous indignation" (as you state below)---if we listened to this we would do nothing. The act of trying to protect thousands of people would not be out of "feelings" but out of reason, compassion, and the very Word of God, where it asks us to consider others before ourselves. "Let him that would be greatest among you be your minister" (or servant). If this means attempting to eliminate an evil man to protect thousands of innocents, so be it.

Chuck---I hate to use this analogy, but it's true. Suppose, yesterday morning, a neighbor of yours, who was very odd, begins loading guns in his car. You had seen him acting erratically before, and making threats. He begins to pull out of the driveway and yells "I'm going to Virginia Tech, and I'm going to kill them all!!" You have a gun at your disposal, and have one clear shot. Do you take it? Or do you think "There must be a plan in all of this. Vengeance is God's. He will repay" and let him drive away? Would it be "presumptuous" of you to intervene, and try to save the lives of those on the campus? I seriously doubt you'd be thinking you might be "thwarting the plan of God" by eliminating this person. In the same way, if Amahdinejab made a threat to slaughter the infidels, and you knew he meant it, would you think of "thwarting God's plan" or would you think of all the poor people who would suffer and die if you didn't act?

I know this event at Virginia Tech. just happened, and great suffering has occurred. Of course we pray for all of the victims families, and all of those effected. I only use this as an example because it just happened, and can only think of how different things would be if he could have been stopped before he went on the rampage.

Chuck---I know we both have different ideas and interpretations on this thought we have been ping-ponging back and forth. I just want to say that I appreciate the conversation, and your posts too. You have every right, as do I, to post our thoughts about those things. It's great to be a U.S. citizen because of this very fact!! I look forward to more of your thoughts in the future. Even though you are wrong. ;D ;D

God bless, Joe

Hi All!

I must admit this discussion has tested many assumptions that I held re. biblical interpretation and our relationship to our present govt. What I mean is: what do we do with verses that tell us "to turn the other cheek" and yet other ones that seem to endorse active defense of the innocent, etc?

I think what it all comes down to (at least for me) is thinking about how I go about interpreting scripture, and this applies to our discussion re. the Founding Fathers of this nation. These men had a practical view of life that was founded in biblical theology and morality, but did not intend to establish a "Christian Nation" like the Puritans were thinking when they came to America.

The Puritans viewed the bible much as Chuck does where he believes God's govt. is to only be expressed in the church. Contrary to that view the Founders saw govt. as also having a ministry from God that was separate from the church, which was to function as Paul mentions in Rom.13 as a supporter of good and repressor of evil. Paul had no expectation that the heathen Roman rulers could somehow become a "Christian nation."

What inspired the American Revolution was an "enlightened" view of govt. that would work better to achieve God's intended purpose in civil govt. vs. a corrupt monarchy that actively opposed what was good and right.

Since the time of Daniel God acknowledged the above role of "secular" civil rule in society by some notable heathens (not believers in the God of Israel). Those who were "good" by treating God's people with dignity were rewarded while those not so occupied were often judged in their lives (others like Hitler, etc. will not escape their own final judgement).

I raise this point because God is not judging these heathen rulers (in OT/NT history) on their correct theology, but solely on the basis of a Judeo/Christian understanding of good and evil---- for they are involved in serving God simply in supporting justice by prosecuting the evil and supporting good works in their nations.

The same kind of enlightened thinking that led to things like medical research, that has made our lives so much better, was also applied to the area of govt. God's gift of our intellect is not to be subdued under some kind of "spiritual view" that lives some where in the heavenlies only. These Founders were political intellectuals that saw "a more perfect Union" as a good effort that would make the world a better place to live ones temporal life in--- which is God's goal for govt., as they saw it. This is not the church's mission and will not save a soul.

Paul tells us to pray for our leaders so that we as believers can live peaceful lives, because this is God's desire for us. I will add to that that He wants us to influence our nation not just as light (theology) but as salt (actions) and this means, in part, doing all we can to support morality in govt. and doing good to others who have temporal needs, etc. (I: JN:3:17).

One can have an orthodox biblical belief and still apply ones mind to doing things smarter, better, and easier in this life--- for God intends us to pursue these worthy goals. One can use knowledge for good or evil purposes, but the development of a government that is just, fair, supports the needy, opposes abusers, etc. is an admirable use of ones knowledge and active pursuit.

God Bless, Mark C.

[Continued from above]

MY RESPONSE: Joe, I appreciate your candor. Maybe one of these days I’ll get it right. Let me give it one more try.
For the next several months, and probably longer, (unless some “juicier” news comes along, i.e. –Anna Nicole’s baby, Nifong and the Duke lacrosse players , Don Imus and the Rutger’s black women athletes) the news media will round up the usual “experts” and parade them before the American public to tell us why a young South Korean boy decided to gun down 32 students at a college in Virginia. The gun control crowd will introduce another “common sense” bill to “prevent such a tragedy from ever happening again.” And stock-in- trade clichés such as “You are in our prayers” and “Our hearts go out to your loved ones.” will issue forth from the politicians who are “shocked by this atrocious act.” And the largest percent of Americans will look to Dr. Phil, Rosie O’Donnell and Oprah, to come up with answers.
.
I’m not trying to be facetious, Joe, but I’m betting it will sound a lot like the same rhetoric with which we were inundated during the aftermath of the Columbine tragedy. And once again, the answers will be all wrong.
Remember that tragic event that took place in April of 1999, when two young students went on a killing rampage and gunned down a bunch of students at Columbine High School in Colorado. A nation mourned and groped for answers, and psychologists were quick to supply them, in their feeble attempts to probe the depths of the minds of troubled teenagers.

However, little serious attention was given to the answer found in the tales of the amazing courage of students like Rachel Scott and others who lost their lives that day. They did so, refusing to deny their God. Whatever fear they may have had for their assailants was overcome by the love they had for God. "There is no fear in love; but perfect love casts out fear, because fear involves punishment, and the one who fears is not perfected in love" (1 John 4:18). Rachel Scott had that love, even for the two young boys who killed her. And there was no fear. Months before the tragedy, she had witnessed to them about her Lord Jesus Christ. Sadly, they rejected it. Had they not, Columbine would probably still be just an obscure little town in Colorado. Sadder yet was the fact that a troubled nation failed to recognize the answer.

Joe, you and I both know that the only answer is Jesus Christ. What you seem to lose sight of in the big picture, is that death is not the end, but merely the beginning. And the greatest tragedy isn’t death, but the death of one who does not know our Lord and Savior.

It may very well be that the Lord wanted to use that tragic Columbine massacre as a wake-up call to a sick nation. Now, before you politely accuse me of getting it all wrong, Joe, please read Rachel Scott’s story (you can find it on the internet). In a dairy that she had left, she related how God had told her that she was going to die and that her death was going to affect many people. You didn’t hear about this on CNN, “Sixty Minutes,” or see it on Michael Moore’s “Bowling For Columbine” documentary (?), but I believe it was the most poignant account of the Lord’s forcing a nation to examine its values and recognize the need to turn to Him.

One more thing before I take a sabbatical, Joe.

In reading the book of Revelation, one can’t help but be awed by the severity of God’s wrath.

“And the four angels, who had been prepared for the hour and day and month and year, were released, so that they would kill a third of mankind” ( Revelation 9:15).

When we read about God pouring out His wrath upon a wicked world I’m reminded of Psalm 2

1Why are the nations in an uproar
And the peoples devising a vain thing?
2The kings of the earth take their stand
And the rulers take counsel together
Against the LORD and against His Anointed, saying,
3"Let us tear their fetters apart
And cast away their cords from us!"
4He who sits in the heavens laughs,
The Lord scoffs at them.
5Then He will speak to them in His anger
And terrify them in His fury, saying,
6"But as for Me, I have installed My King
Upon Zion, My holy mountain."
7"I will surely tell of the decree of the LORD:
He said to Me, 'You are My Son,
Today I have begotten You.
8'Ask of Me, and I will surely give the nations as Your inheritance,
And the very ends of the earth as Your possession.
9'You shall break them with a rod of iron,
You shall shatter them like earthenware.'"
10Now therefore, O kings, show discernment;
Take warning, O judges of the earth.
11Worship the LORD with reverence
And rejoice with trembling.
12Do homage to the Son, that He not become angry, and you perish in the way,
For His wrath may soon be kindled
How blessed are all who take refuge in Him!

God bless, Chuck

[Continued from above]

YOU WROTE: He says to be a "father to the fatherless, and protect the widow". He says to "Love our neighbor as ourself" (to do for someone else what we would have them do for us). We cannot say "none of us are perfectly attuned to the will of God on this earth, aren't we being presumptuous to suppose that we can act upon our feelings, whether it be out of "revenge" or from "righteous indignation" (as you state below)---if we listened to this we would do nothing.

MY RESPONSE: You seem to equate not assassinating tyrants and not using armed might to bring peace as “doing nothing.” What about praying for those who persecute you and giving to everyone who asks, and giving to the poor and preaching the gospel to the unsaved – being light and salt to a dying world?

MY RESPONSE: The act of trying to protect thousands of people would not be out of "feelings" but out of reason, compassion, and the very Word of God, where it asks us to consider others before ourselves. "Let him that would be greatest among you be your minister" (or servant). If this means attempting to eliminate an evil man to protect thousands of innocents, so be it.

MY RESPONSE: Seems to me that you are loosely translating these verses to fit your understanding, Joe but if you feel that this verse is telling you to go to Iran and assassinate Ahmadinejad, I won’t get in your way. Paul wrote: “For who are you to judge the servant of another? To his own master he stands or falls, and stand he will, for the Lord is able to make him stand (Romans 14:4) and “The faith which you have, have as your own conviction before God. Happy is he who does not condemn himself in what he does” (Romans 13:22).
Yeh, if I were convinced that it does mean attempting to eliminate an evil man to protect thousands of innocents, then I will join in with you, but at this point I’m not convinced – but I’ll still listen.
I’d rather depend on God’s word (even if it is only my interpretation) than upon my feelings. It’s easy to sit in the comforts of our living room and decide that it would be in God’s will to send someone to Iran to accomplish the task of assassinating Ahmadinejad, but I don’t see any big line of volunteers forming to go there and do it.

And, incidentally, why is it that the ones who are killed in these events are always descroibed as “innocent” victims? But that’s a topic for another discussion.

YOU WROTE: Chuck---I hate to use this analogy, but it's true. Suppose,[what if?] yesterday morning, a neighbor of yours, who was very odd, begins loading guns in his car. You had seen him acting erratically before, and making threats. He begins to pull out of the driveway and yells "I'm going to Virginia Tech, and I'm going to kill them all!!" You have a gun at your disposal, and have one clear shot. Do you take it?

MY RESPONSE: Nope, and I doubt if you would either, Joe. It’s easy, after the fact, to say what you would have done, or someone else should have done. Any assertions as to how you would have responded are pure conjecture.

YOU WROTE: Or do you think "There must be a plan in all of this. Vengeance is God's. He will repay" and let him drive away? Would it be "presumptuous" of you to intervene, and try to save the lives of those on the campus? I seriously doubt you'd be thinking you might be "thwarting the plan of God" by eliminating this person.

MY RESPONSE: I would probably think that the guy is looney in the head and I’d call 911 and let the police deal with it..

YOU WROTE: In the same way, if Amahdinejab made a threat to slaughter the infidels, and you knew he meant it, would you think of "thwarting God's plan" or would you think of all the poor people who would suffer and die if you didn't act?

MY RESPONSE: Ahmadinejad has threatened to “wipe Israel off the map.” What are you doing about that, Joe?

YOU WROTE: I know this event at Virginia Tech. just happened, and great suffering has occurred. Of course we pray for all of the victims families, and all of those effected. I only use this as an example because it just happened, and can only think of how different things would be if he could have been stopped before he went on the rampage.

Chuck---I know we both have different ideas and interpretations on this thought we have been ping-ponging back and forth. I just want to say that I appreciate the conversation, and your posts too. You have every right, as do I, to post our thoughts about those things. It's great to be a U.S. citizen because of this very fact!! I look forward to more of your thoughts in the future. Even though you are wrong.

God bless, Joe
[Continued below]

[Continued from above]

YOU WROTE: But let's jump forward to today. We do not know God's SPECIFIC plan for America, or for any country for that matter. If another Pharaoh, in the form of Amahdinejab, not only threatens the Jews, but the whole world with his speeches, what are we to do? Again, if Amahdinejab said "In the morning, at my command, I will slaughter the infidels", and we had the opportunity to stop him through assassination, would we do nothing? Would we say "As in the days of Moses, God had a plan. He must have a plan here also. Perhaps he has raised this man up to bring persecution on the U.S. and on the world to turn us back to himself. I will do nothing and trust that God's Will will be done". ?

MY RESPONSE: Here you go again with the hypotheticals, Joe. Well, let me join in again.

So O.K., what if you take out Ahmadinejad, and find out that you’ve done nothing but make a martyr of him and further roused the hatred of the Iranian people. Without warning, the new leader launches missiles at the U.S. and Israel. Israel is destroyed and millions of its people are killed. New York, Washington, Los Angeles, Chicago, San Francisco and Dallas are all virtually annihilated and millions are dead and countless millions of others are injured. The United States becomes a virtual nuclear wasteland, unfit for habitation. But you have been successful in assassinating an evil man who threatened to” slaughter the infidels.” Congratulations, Joe!

YOU WROTE: But we, unlike Moses, would have no idea what God's purpose is or what he is going to do. He hasn't told us he is going to use Amahdinejab and WILL spare the U.S. and others (he told Moses that Israel for sure would be freed after the tests he put upon Pharaoh--Moses KNEW that his people WOULD be freed). We have no such information. What if God's will was for you to stop him since you have the opportunity?

MY RESPONSE: Whenever we act on conjecture and feelings rather than trusting in God’s commands (even when, and especially when, we don’t understand them) we err. Mr. Bush’s Road Map to Peace violates God’s plan for Israel and binds this nation together with unbelievers.

YOU WROTE: Would it be "presumption" to try to save the lives of thousands of people? None of us can be "perfectly attuned to God's plan on this earth" ,that's why we must look to the heart of God and to His Word.

MY RESPONSE: Exactly!

[Continued below]

Joe,

YOU WROTE:
Chuck--
I appreciate your posts. But you have a tendency to equate the United States with Israel. Though their are many Christians and Jews in the U.S. we cannot say that the United States are "God's People". I do believe He has greatly blessed the U.S. though due to the believing population, prayers, and the efforts of the U.S. in helping the less fortunate around the world, and defending those being oppressed.

RESPONSE: Joe, I don’t know where you got the idea that I equate the United States with Israel, unless you mean it in the sense that both nations have turned away from God And no, I certainly don’t believe that the U.S. are God’s people. As for his blessing the U.S., it seems that the more affluent this country has become, the farther they have abandoned their dependence on God and relied more upon money and military power. As for defending the oppressed, it seems that the U.S. has been selective in whom they defend. The North Koreans are one of the most oppressed people in the world, but I haven’t seen any effort to go in and take out their cruel dictator and establish a democracy there.

YOU WROTE: The United States is made up of selfish men (as are all countries of the world), and true, the U.S. did not enter World War 2 until we were directly attacked by Japan. Perhaps if the U.S. had entered earlier, the war may have ended differently. Who knows? The point I was making before is that the U.S. has given more to help other countries through charity and defense than any other country.

MY RESPONSE: I believe that as followers of Christ we have an obligation to help the poor and the downtrodden. When governments take it upon themselves to use their peoples money for charitable purposes, things go awry and much of the money gets misused or stolen. I,e. – Iraqi victims, Katrina victims, the Tsunammi victims.

YOU WROTE: Regarding Moses, he in "revenge" did kill an Egyptian for abusing Jews. This "revenge" killing was totally wrong as the Bible declares. True, God had a "plan" for "his people Israel", and did indeed raise up Pharaoh and Moses, to show his glory for all time. God told Moses that in using a series of plagues he would eventually free Israel. But again, Chuck, I do have to ask the question: If Moses had overheard Pharaoh say "At my command, in the morning, I will slaughter all of the Israelites beginning with the youngest" and he had an opportunity to kill Pharaoh before he could accomplish this horrible act, would he be warranted in killing Pharaoh to protect thousands of Israelites? I know you will say "God would tell him what to do"--and He would as he had ALREADY told Moses he had a SPECIFIC plan in raising him up to address Pharaoh. But if Moses knew nothing, and only had a short time to act, would God be displeased with Moses for doing this, or would he be pleased with Moses for loving the people of Israel so much? Of course we are talking Law and Grace, but we are also talking about the heart of God.

MY RESPONSE: Your hypotheticals amount to situation ethics, Joe and I don’t care to engage in jousting with you concerning continuous “what if”s,” - but let me play your game for a moment

Let’s take the meeting at which Bonhoffer, Rommel and the others had planned on assassinating Hitler. What if Hitler had called the meeting to tell His staff that he had had a change of heart and that he was going to allow all of the Jews to return to their homes. But the attempt on his life so infuriated him that he decided to escalate his persecution of the Jews? Far=fetched? Yes, but that's the danger with playing those "what if?" games.

[Continued below]

[continued from above]

YOU WROTE: So, Chuck, you need to actually answer your own questions and then offer your answers in support of your position. If you can't answer the questions with any certainty, the best you or anyone else could do is "perhaps".

MY RESPONSE: O.K., Tom – here were my questions – and my answers

1 - Is not the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob the same God of Tom Maddux and Chuck Miller and Joe Sperling, Mark C, Moonflower and Explorer? My answer – Yes, with not one iota of uncertainty.

2. And would He not hear the cry of His righteous ones and deliver us from the wrath of the evil Ahmadinejad? My answer – “Yes, I believe He would, but I would not presume to know with certainty what God’s plans are for this country.

3..And if He didn’t, would we be willing to say in the spirit of Shadrach, Meshach and Abed-nego. “But, O’God, if you do not deliver us from this fiery ordeal, you are still our God and we know that we are your people.” My answer – I would hope we would have that attitude but I am cautioned, “He who thinks he stand, take heed lest he fall.” So I wouldn’t make any assumptions about my own steadfastness under duress. Only by His grace would I be able to stand.

Finally, remember that many, many godly saints have cried out to God for deliverance, and have not been delivered. Seems to me that God's purposes are the deciding factor in the histories of nations.

Blessings,

Tom Maddux

MY RESPONSE: Amen, Tom.

So, if “God's purposes are the deciding factor in the histories of nations,” then it behooves us to determine what are God’s purposes. I find nothing in the scriptures that suggests that He advocated Christians going and making nations of disciples. That doesn’t necessarily negate the possibility that it would be compatible with His purposes, but it certainly hasn’t proven out in the case of the United States.

Nor has He given any mandate for any country to go and make “a democracy of a Godless nation,” such as Iraq.

God’s purpose is that all men should be saved and to present every man complete in Christ. His purpose to save a lost world through His Son Christ Jesus, will not be defeated even by the wiles of Satan himself. He established the church so that the manifold wisdom of God might now be made known to the rulers and the authorities in the heavenly places (and again, I would have to qualify that to be a properly functioning church). Despite Satan’s attack upon that church in order to make it ineffective, Jesus promised that the gates of Hades would not overpower it (Matthew 16:18)
And in anticipation of your asking “What is a properly functioning church?” I would refer you again to Acts 2 since I know of no better example.

42They were continually devoting themselves to the apostles' teaching and to fellowship, to the breaking of bread and to prayer.
43Everyone kept feeling a sense of awe; and many wonders and signs were taking place through the apostles.
44And all those who had believed were together and had all things in common;
45and they began selling their property and possessions and were sharing them with all, as anyone might have need.
46Day by day continuing with one mind in the temple, and breaking bread from house to house, they were taking their meals together with gladness and sincerity of heart,
47praising God and having favor with all the people And the Lord was adding to their number day by day those who were being saved.

I make no apology for the redundancy. Since you admit to the unchanging divine nature of the Lord Jesus, not to God's particular way of working at a certain point in history,” - then would it not be wise for us to discover the unchanging principles that this early church practiced so that we could apply them to our gatherings in this age and through the empowering of the Holy Spirit aid in accomplishing His purposes?
Or would you suggest that Jesus established the U.S. in order to accomplish it? But there I go asking another question.

He gave us, the church, a mandate to “Go, therefore and make disciples of all the nations” – (again - not a mandate to make nations of all of His disciples). And we are to be ambassadors for Christ, not for any earthly government. We are to be salt and light to the unbelievers by living a life in accordance with His instructions in Matthew 5, 6 and 7.

Israel, was empowered to make God’s name know throughout all the land and they would have been richly blessed in the process had the not disobeyed Him. Yet, for all of their disobedience , they are still God’s people and He always purposed to bring them back into their land. But He says,

"It is not for your righteousness or for the uprightness of your heart that you are going to possess their land, but it is because of the wickedness of these nations that the LORD your God is driving them out before you, in order to confirm the oath which the LORD swore to your fathers, to Abraham, Isaac and Jacob” (Deuteronomy 9:5)

May we keep our hearts focused on Him and the task He has given us until He returns in glory.

God bless

Chuck

Tom,

YOU WROTE: Chuck,

You said: Quote:

"But let’s imagine for a moment that my juxtaposition was true - that we were a righteous, God-fearing nation, led by a righteous, God- fearing President who put his trust completely in the Lord. Is not the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob the same God of Tom Maddox and Chuck Miller and Joe Sperling, Mark C, Moonflower and Explorer? And would He not hear the cry of His righteous ones and deliver us from the wrath of the evil Ahmadinejad? And if He didn’t, would we be willing to say in the spirit of Shadrach, Meshach and Abed-nego. “But, O’God, if you do not deliver us from this fiery ordeal, you are still our God and we know that we are your people.”

1. First of all, what exactly is a righteous, God fearing nation"? A nation without sinners? A nation where 100% of the citizens are born again and walking with God? Would God settle for 95%? 90%? or what???

RESPONSE: I believe a “God-fearing nation” would be one that is composed of people whose Lord is Jesus Christ and don’t have to show it by slogans or words on their currency. They exhibit a life of obedience to their Lord and put their trust in Him rather than in armies and weapons. I don’t know of any such nation at this time.

In answer to your question, “Would God settle for 95%? 90%? or what???” I read that God would have settled for ten righteous men for Him to have spared the city of Sodom (Gen 18:32).

YOU WROTE: Last time I checked, Israel was a theocracy, and as long as the government and priesthood were diligent to attempt to force the people to obey the law pretty well, that was adequate. I remember one verse where God was honoring the king even though he did not take all the high places away.

MY RESPONSE: Yes, we know that Asa, for one, did not take away the high places, but He was wholly devoted to the LORD all his days. (1 Kings 15)
I don’t believe the priesthood was instituted to “force the people to obey the law pretty well.” The priests were appointed to teach the law. God never intended to “force “ His people to obey.
As for Israel being a theocracy, let me remind you that God was Israel’s King until they decided that they wanted an earthly king. And so, they became a monarchy.

YOU WROTE: We are not a theocracy, we have no earthly priesthood, and most of the Law is not codified in our laws. So, how can we know if we are being godly enough?

MY RESPONSE: The United States is certainly not a theocracy. Even if you kept all of the laws of the U.S. government, it would not make you godly, Tom. God’s kingdom is a theocracy. The church is a part of that kingdom. We cannot be “godly enough,” but Jesus is. Through Him we can be righteous (or godly enough)
“For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners, so also through the obedience of the one man, the many will be made righteous” ( Romans 5:19)

YOU WROTE: 2. You are reasoning in the same manner the Pentescostals do. They reason, "since Jesus is the same yesterday, today, and forever, what we are doing in our churches is the same as the early church.

MY RESPONSE: And you reason by making invalid assumptions, Tom. I have pointed this out in the past and assumed you would cease doing so. My point is that a church (in any age) functions properly when it follows the principles laid down by Christ, availing itself of the means He has supplied for doing so. Paul understood this when he wrote:

10He who descended is Himself also He who ascended far above all the heavens, so that He might fill all things.)
11And He gave some as apostles, and some as prophets, and some as evangelists, and some as pastors and teachers,
12for the equipping of the saints for the work of service, to the building up of the body of Christ;
13until we all attain to the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to a mature man, to the measure of the stature which belongs to the fullness of Christ.
14As a result, we are no longer to be children, tossed here and there by waves and carried about by every wind of doctrine, by the trickery of men, by craftiness in deceitful scheming;
15but speaking the truth in love, we are to grow up in all aspects into Him who is the head, even Christ,
16from whom the whole body, being fitted and held together by what every joint supplies, according to the proper working of each individual part, causes the growth of the body for the building up of itself in love.

Admittedly, you would be hard pressed to find a church today that exhibits this type of conduct and attitude, but that doesn’t alter the purpose for which it was established.

YOU WROTE: The problem is that the verse refers to the unchanging divine nature of the Lord Jesus, not to God's particular way of working at a certain point in history. The former is unchanging. The latter is not.

MY RESPONSE: Good comment, Tom. I assumed you were smart enough to figure that out,

YOU WROTE: 3. What you offer in support of your position is a series of questions. How convincing is this: Is not Mark Campbell capable of shoplifting? Does he not regularly enter stores? Does he not have many of the things found in those stores in his possession?

This is, of course, absurd. No one would accept this as any indication of Mark's purported guilt at all. What would be necessary is positive evidence that he had actually stolen something.

RESPONSE: Since you admit that your analogy is absurd, I don’t think it warrants any further comment

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General Discussion => Any and All Topics => : Chuck Miller April 04, 2007, 10:55:54 PM