Question for the Christian Community

[vernecarty]

Say folks,

If GG was a "grievous wolf", and his enforcers qualify as wolves as well...

Shouldn't the "assemblies" that are still meeting, and are propagating GG's teachings and practices be called "wolf packs"?  

Thomas Maddux

Tom,

More like a huddled mass of sheep. I think the average person still involved is probably weak and deceived on many levels.

If they are not, then they are wolves in sheeps' clothing (to continue the analogy!)


Scott

I think what is truly hard for some people to admit is the evidence is overwhelming that George was never a true man of God and all he did was in the strength of the flesh. People nontheless have their "experiences" in the assemblies and refuse to acknowledge that facts are stubborn things. In clinging to that which God has so summarily and signally judged, I think many are sadly missing the entire lesson God intended to teach us...so very, very sad. I think the full conviction of some will have to wait for the completion of God's visible work with regard to the man Geftakys.
Verne

[Mark C.]

Dear Verne,
  You post a very interesting question that has been bothering me as well and that is the whole issue of Christian forgiveness.  (I will only say re. your poetry what Marcia told me, "don't quit your day job."  
  It is not that I am tempted to buy into the notion that our forgiveness of others means we are passive in the face of evil, but I struggle in trying to express clearly what this word "forgiveness" should look like in our attitude and behavior. No doubt whatever we attempt we fall far short of the proper balance in regard to expressing Christ in this regard.
  I know that Jesus and Paul were not hypocrites, so their views of the principles of forgiveness would be defined more clearly for us as we consider their attitudes and actions.  So, when Jesus commanded us to pray, "For if you forgive men when they sin against you, your heavenly Father will also forgive you," (MT. 6: 14.) and then we see Jesus lashing out harshly at the Pharisees (MT.23) we come to the conclusion that forgiveness does not mean a silent acquiescence to whatever error or evil may come our way.
  Forgiveness, as Jesus taught it, was not intended to blur moral and spiritual clarity (discernment) but to cause us to recognize that every human fundamentally needs to admit their own sinfulness.  The kind of "forgiveness" that flashes the peace sign and says, "can't we all just get along" and then move on to ignorant bliss springs from a shallow pseudo spirituality.  This kind of  "unconditional" forgiveness and forgetfulness is unbiblical and dishonest.
  Doesn't God forgive us unconditionally?   Yet God warns us, teaches us, corrects us, and sometimes takes us to the wood shed (chastisement).
  Forgiveness recognizes all righteousness comes from God's grace, and as such we must demonstrate this attitude toward others.  Grace creates a humble and loving person who wishes all to share in God's bountiful salvation, but forgiveness never suggests a "continuance in sin that grace may abound."  In other words I forgive those that sin against me, but I never say it is not sin, or should not be admitted to and repented of.
  Should a Christian wife unconditionally forgive a husband who is continually beating her up?  Was Jesus' definition of forgiveness to just have this wife, "forgive and forget, and forgive and forget, and forgive and forget, etc." ??  Should we, if we were aware of such a situation as above, ignore and remain passive in the situation because after all, "we're all just sinners too and we need to have a forgiving heart"??!!
   These are some of my thoughts, but I rather suspect someone here can come up with a more succinct way to say this.
                           God Bless,  Mark C.
   

[editor]

 Doesn't God forgive us unconditionally?  

No, God does not forgive unconditionally.  Never, not even once did He do such a thing.

It seems to me there was always the condition of atonement, with regard to forgiveness.  It seems to me that Christ met God's conditions, and we are forgiven in Him.  I think this is perhaps the biggest "condition" in the history of the universe.  

Same with "unconditional" love.  It seems to me that Jesus died in order that we might be brought near to God.  He loved us, but the condition was that we were washed in Christ's blood.

I forgive George, David, etc.  However, I am NOT reconciled to them, and cannot in any way express my forgiveness towards them in a sincere way until they repent.  I really want them to repent.  However, until then, things are not "cool" between us.

I suspect that things will not be too cool between the people who go to Hell and God either.  How is it that He can put someone He has "unconditionally" forgiven, whom he "unconditionally" loves into Hell?

There are some serious conditions here, at least that's the way I see it.  I'm glad we have a saviour, really glad.

Brent

[vernecarty]

Thank you Mark and Brent!
Lutzer did make a clear disctinction between forgiveness and reconciliaton. So Brent I take it that Lutzer's concept of one-way-forgiveness (unconditional) is not mirrored in the dealings of God with His own creatures so one could raise questions about its theological validity?
Dispositonally I am inclined to agree with Lutzer
Theologically Brent's argument is unassailable.
Every benefit of God's favor the redeemed enjoys was secured at a hefty price indeed!
The presence of ever sinner in Hell is prima facie evidence that God did not apply the blood of Christ to their sin.
It is simply not possibly to draw any other conclusion, the remakable theological contortions of some on this point notwithstanding.

I sometimes reflect on the assignation of hatred to the strong language of condemnation I employ in rebuking the conduct of George and his enablers. Should the language not poperly reflect the deed? What is the appropriate descriptors for us to employ to tell what these people have done?
I am not about to do any back-tracking but I am sometimes truly puzzled by such characterization.
Nothing about what I say is contrived.
Nothing about what I say is mere ill-temper.
I want to ask about the response of every heart that loves the exalted Lord Jesus Christ, about the response evoked by the telling of what some of these people did in the name of the Son of God.
The depth of anguish, sorrow and dispair cannot be  adequately described. We know what the Lord Jesus Christ is like. We know what He willingly did for us.
For some to come in His Name and do what some of these men did fills my soul with an unspeakable horror.
My strident language is the language of a tortured soul:

How could they do this to the name of the Son of the Most High? How could they so grossly misrepresent Him?
The fire of my indignation has burned with an unquenchable fervency for I deeply love the Lord Jesus Christ. He means everything to me. How could people claiming to be His servants do these things to those for whom He died??
Lord how are we to unconditionally forgive in the face of such impenitence? The heart rather cries out for justice and the vindication of His holy Name!
I must say I harbour deep suspicion of people who interminably wax eloquent about the love and mercy of God to the total exclusion of His awesome Holiness, which, in addition to love, is His essential defining attribute. It is my experience that such people have lived compromised and debauched lives and are seeking refuge in a hollow and careless mischaracterization of the God with whom we have to do. They know little about Jehovah-Tsidenku! The teaching purveyed by these kinds of people is not only generally false it is dangerous.
Is it possible to strike a posture that embraces one-way-forgivenss while the Name of the God of Glory remains impugned?
I honestly do not know the answer to that question.
Apart from repentance, which leads to remission, who will pay the cost?  
Verne

[BenJapheth]

 Doesn't God forgive us unconditionally?  

I forgive George, David, etc.  However, I am NOT reconciled to them, and cannot in any way express my forgiveness towards them in a sincere way until they repent.  I really want them to repent.  However, until then, things are not "cool" between us.

Yep, yep, yep...

::c:v::

[M2]

What's my chances of getting published? Maybe George could help me out on that score...
Verne

Since you have a fiery approach towards assembly matters, I suggest Torch the Testimony Productions for the name of your publishing company. All you now need is some money and a good friend with a printing press.

Marcia

[M2]

...
 People nontheless have their "experiences" in the assemblies and refuse to acknowledge that facts are stubborn things. In clinging to that which God has so summarily and signally judged, I think many are sadly missing the entire lesson God intended to teach us...so very, very sad. I think the full conviction of some will have to wait for the completion of God's visible work with regard to the man Geftakys.
Verne

Verne,

This ties in with something that Brent shared. Shadrach Meshach and Abednego in the 'fiery furnace'. They experienced the Lord's mighty deliverance from the furnace, but did not come out of the furnace giving allegiance to the King any more than before they entered. Something like that. It's better felt than telt.

Marcia

[retread]

I think that simply refusing to read or reply to their absurdities would be the wise, (for us) and merciful (for them) thing to do.

That is my .02.

God bless,
Thomas Maddux

When I was a kid we played "The Quiet Game" when we traveled. The first person to make a noise got thumped.

I vote we play The Quiet Game with regards to the other site. Let's see how long we can go without someone bringing it up.

First loser gets a noogie!

Scott

*sigh* Obligatory note to lurkers: This is humor. Anyone is free to discuss whatever they want without fear of noogies.

On that flying high site Matt writes:

...
I hope someone will respond to this, either on this bb or others.
...

Matt, are you sure that you just don't want me to get a noogie? Oops, I guess that I just earned one.

[vernecarty]

What's my chances of getting published? Maybe George could help me out on that score...
Verne

Since you have a fiery approach towards assembly matters, I suggest Torch the Testimony Productions for the name of your publishing company. All you now need is some money and a good friend with a printing press.

Marcia

Torch the Testimony...hmmmnnnn....
It does have nice ring to it....

[Mark Kisla]

We know what the Lord Jesus Christ is like. We know what He willingly did for us.
For some to come in His Name and do what some of these men did fills my soul with an unspeakable horror.
My strident language is the language of a tortured soul:

How could they do this to the name of the Son of the Most High? How could they so grossly misrepresent Him?
The fire of my indignation has burned with an unquenchable fervency for I deeply love the Lord Jesus Christ. He means everything to me. How could people claiming to be His servants do these things to those for whom He died??
Lord how are we to unconditionally forgive in the face of such impenitence? The heart rather cries out for justice and the vindication of His holy Name!
Is it possible to strike a posture that embraces one-way-forgivenss while the Name of the God of Glory remains impugned?
I honestly do not know the answer to that question.
Apart from repentance, which leads to remission, who will pay the cost?  
Verne

Verne,
I agree with your position.
I can tolerate someone who is upfront and truthful about what they are after in life as oppossed to someone who is deceptive in attaining their goal.
I have no problem with the person who has the late night TV informercial and is telling you how you can make millions like him for 4 easy payments of $39.99.
I do have a problem with someone who in the name of God uses people to gratify his ambitions.
I respect someone who tells you to use their product, "at your own risk"
I have no respect for someone who preached ; "trust me "..."let me be a father to you" then betrays everything that true fatherhood represents.
Mark
 

[Joe Sperling]

Verne---

Your question really, really got me thinking. In my reply to you I mentioned Stephen, the martyr who was stoned to death by a crowd of people, including Pharisees. And I remembered something last night. After this crowd stoned Stephen, and Stephen said "Lord forgive them they know not what they do" it says they took his clothes and threw them down at the feet of Saul of Tarsus.

This truly makes one think. This was an obstinate, hate-filled Pharisee, bent on killing Christians. He was standing there(and perhaps was one who threw the stones) watching a Christian die. It says that Stephen looked up and saw Jesus "standing" at the right hand of God----not sitting. What if Stephen had not asked forgiveness for them?? Would Saul have ever become Paul? Was Stephen's prayer of forgiveness instrumental in leading to Saul's conversion? We really don't know---but it is very intriguing to me.

God bless you Verne, and thanks for your posts.

--Joe

[vernecarty]

Verne---



This truly makes one think. This was an obstinate, hate-filled Pharisee, bent on killing Christians. He was standing there(and perhaps was one who threw the stones) watching a Christian die. It says that Stephen looked up and saw Jesus "standing" at the right hand of God----not sitting. What if Stephen had not asked forgiveness for them?? Would Saul have ever become Paul? Was Stephen's prayer of forgiveness instrumental in leading to Saul's conversion? We really don't know---but it is very intriguing to me.

God bless you Verne, and thanks for your posts.

--Joe

Powerful...and convicting...!
Verne

p.s. Paul talks of his separation from his mother's womb...it seems the gracious prayer of Stephen was part and parcel of God's grand design in calling the great apostle...clearly a marvellously prepared vessel for God's use...although the parallel with George is not arithmetic, the principle still is very thought-provoking...