AssemblyBoard

I've been a believer for 12 years now and involed with the saints in St. Louis for the past year. And I just wanted to point out that I didn't start coming out because I saw George in the saints but because I saw Christ! I wasn't raised in the assembly but through God's devine workings I was brought here and I will remain here until God tells me otherwise.
 
When I first came out I wasn't drawn by the teachings of a man but by the Spirit that was clearly speaking through these people. It was nothing less than a miracle that I 'ran' into these folks at a book table on my campus on my first day of college a hundred miles away from my home and thousands of miles from where I was born. I was brought halfway around the world to be in fellowship here and it was no accident. The saints here have given me so much and I sincerely hope and pray that they continue to do God's work. Without the seemingly little activities like book table who knows how long it might have been before I ran into them, if at all.

I don't know everything there is to know about the assembly's past but I didn't come for that anyway.  Through the saints, my life has been changed and I cannot thank God or them enough for that. I only pray that they remain strong and continue to seek God's will so that others may be able 'run into' them;)

Dear Laura,

In 1988, driving near Kayenta, Arizona, I ran into a cow.  I was going 50 miles per hour at the time.  The result was that both my car and the cow were killed.

Just because something happens doesn't constitute a "proof" that God did it.  Does God murder cows?

Was this a good thing?  The Navaho police thought it was wonderful.  The officer told me, "We're going to have steaks."  My car disagreed.

We have seen many evil things go on in the assemblies for many years.  People bilked of thousands of dollars, people you loved turn on you and treat you like dirt, (in God's name), even a couple of people who became so depressed over their inability to measure up that they killed themselves!

So, as you read the postings on the BB, remember that EVERYONE felt just like you in the beginning.  These are people who spent years, even decades, in this very flawed system.   They don't want it to happen to you.

I pray it won't.

Thomas Maddux

I understand your concerns. I had much the same ones at my former place of fellowship. But I'm just going to have to trust God on this. He's lead me this far and I know he will continue to do so.

Dear Laura

The folks at the booktable were looking for you, and everyone else who looked their way.  

Chances are, you would have "run into," Campus Crusade, had you missed your divine appointment.

Even so,  I rejoice that you are my sister in Christ, and I can't tell you how happy I am that you won't be repeating my life, after I "ran into" the saints in SLO.

Read about it here:  http://www.geftakysassembly.com/navigating.htm (http://www.geftakysassembly.com/navigating.htm)

Suzie

Hi Laura - The response you give is exactly mine as well! I didn't come because brother George or for anybody. I was led by the Holy Spirit! And I'm still rejoicing at what God has done over the years in Seattle!

I've read a lot of peoples comments here and I was startled by many who were sincerely hurt by the unfaithfulness of others. This has not been the experience here as I'm sure in other places as well. I have seen nothing but God's amazing goodness.

Through the recent revealings I have been made aware of many failings (sins) that I was oblivious to having taken the integrity of others for granted. We were kind of insulated from much up North here. Nevertheless God has been showing us things and we just keep repenting. I am thankful for those who displayed courage to stand and expose the sins. Please pray for us though because we want to please Christ.

brother Russ

Amen. Some of us who didn't live in Cal. and weren't directly involved with the work were not affected negatively by it. We just had the opprotunities to see its fruits and continue in our walks with God as He has shown us.


And in answer to the earlier reply from Suzie- I agree that I would have found out about the bible study on campus eventually but what I was really saying was that God not only brought me to that table but to that campus, that city, that state, and that country and exactly the right time. To deny that would be like denying God's working at all. But I'll admit that I was fourtunate to not be involved with the gathering while it still had its kinks but rather I got in on the tailend of things when God was doing his pruning. While no gathering is perfect, I still believe the saints here have real insight into God's will.

Laura,

I appreciate your comments and heart about this matter.  I have never been here because of George either.  Most people I know haven't been.  And, I have many, many friends in the Midwest assemblies and plan on continuing those friendships in Christ.

But, you need to make sure that your are not living under a "Galatian" type system that has definitely been in place in the assemblies.  I don't believe in any way that it has been intentional.  But that does not mean it has not been there.  It has.  I have been here for 13 years and can attest to it.  It has taken me a long time to see it, but I do.

I too am staying here until God leads otherwise.  But, I am not going to ignore the truth that is being brought to light through this BB.  It must be responded to in sincerity before God.

I hope you continue to grow in the Lord and experience the blessings of His grace.


Joe

Dear Suzie,

Hi this is Daniel Teater I was actually the first person from "the assembly" in St. Louis to run into Laura.  I thought I would offer one point for clarification.  I did not even invite her out!  I talked to her about what I believed about various topics and then I was ready to end the conversation.  However, she was not so ready.  She had to ask me when, and where the Bible Study was to take place.  So no, I wasn't"looking for her" I was just out at that booktable time trusting that the Lord would use me in whatever way that He could.  Please try to understand that though there has been great failure,  God is sovereign.  Also try and remember (as the Lord has reminded me) that He has such a deep intimate concern and care for His flock.  Do you not think God's loving eye was on this whole situation.  Please stand with us!!  God was not taken by surprise as some of us were.  I can assure you that God has not stopped addressing long standing issues, but I know that truth must be communciated in love.  

When I said the truth needed to be communciated in love I don't mean to infer that everyone hasn't.  I do believe God has used this BB,    .  For those of you have spoken your mind, and revealed the truth, I thank you.  (I believe God has led thus far.)  

Just thought I would add this little note.

Daniel,
You are right. God has used this website and BB. I can attest to that. I appreciate your thoughts here.  God has and is working in spite of all our/my failure.
I sure appreciated your message when you visited Champaign awhile ago. I could see the Lord's work in your life. It was very encouraging .
Lord bless you and your family.
Pat

I too can say that God brought me here and it was not because of a man.  I was hungry for the Word of God and God has always been faithful to meet that need.  
The Lord has worked in St Louis and there has been growth.  I believe there are brethren (in St Louis and other places) who love the Lord and have learned over the years to love Him more through personal trials.
Keep your eyes on the Lord and search His Word to see what is true and what is not. :)

I can definitely attest to what Arlene has said.  It is the Lord who has stayed her.  She has sensed this "Galatian" error for quite a long time.  A verse from that epistle kind of describes her mind, "But of these who seemed to be somewhat, (whatsoever they were, it maketh no matter to me: God accepteth no man’s person:) for they who seemed to be somewhat in conference added nothing to me:" (Gal 2:6). She was very patient with me, I did not see it until the beginning of this month, when Rachel, Brent & Co. "beat me over the head" with their revelations.  My response? Repentance towards her and my family.

Regarding St. Louis, tho' I'm sure it has not entirely escaped the spiritual abuse issues, I do believe the brethren there (whether "leading" or not) have learned much of what it is to live according to grace, especially in the past three to five years or so.  It's not that they don't need to examine some teachings they/we have unquestioningly taken as true, and make some changes, but I do think that assembly has been on the right track for some time now.

Hey Joe,

My wife and I met Andrea at our home the night before last.  

What a wonderful, godly wife you have!  Wow! She was a real pleasure. We're the Vanasses.  My wife is Patty Mathews sister...Wayne's my good buddy and bro-in-law.  We have five kids 19 down to 7.

Tomorrow she's bringing the whole troop over for worship in our little home gathering.  We have a couple large families beside ours, so the house will be rocking.  :)

So, she'll see something new!

We sing, we share the word, we felllowship, we break bread...it's very informal, but always a sweet blessing.

She's spunky and fun...thanks for lending her and your kids to us.

Blessings Joe...You call us after 3:00 at 913.402.8318 you can talk to her.

All the best and Blessings to you...Chuck

One thing:  In all the years that I have been in the assembly, Christ has been preached.  It was not a lot of candles and chants, but it was Christ.  They didn't sacrifice cows and they didn't preach Satanic Worship but new testament following of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.

As we stand in this time of great sorrow and great hope, REMEMBER YOUR ENEMY.  It would be easier if you could narrow it down to the guy down the street, or the lady at the grocery store, but that doesn't work.  It is the devil who is very much alive and very powerful and wants to destroy our faith and remove our hope.  It is easy to begin pointing the finger and going,"It's their fault, or them." "It is that brother."  "Two years ago, he offended me."  We can all say that of each other.  We have all been offended and since we are humans, we have offended.  We need to forgive and pray hard.

Also, regarding this issue, let us remember that we are not God.  I am not.  You are not.  We do not know what he knows, but we each, as individuals and as a corporate body of Christ, we must follow in His train.  We have an individual responsibility that we stand before God in whatever we do.  We have a responsibility that when someone says something, or when something is preached, we do not sit back on our rear-ends and "take their word for it."  We must search the scriptures and seek if these things are true.

Now concerning this assembly, I have heard many things, but mostly all the time, it is backed up by the living word of God.  And when it isn't, I am responsible before God to go look it up for myself and really seek the truth.  I trust that Laura has been doing that.  And from what she has said, she sounds pretty confident to me.  Yes, just because something happens, doesn't mean that it was directly from God.  It would be quite foolish to jump off the nearest cliff because the preacher down the street told you to.  It is your job to go to the scriptures and look it up.  "OH!  It says here that suicide is wrong.  So therefore, I should not jump off that cliff, and this man has been teaching wrong things."  

We all stand before God for all of our words, thoughts, and deeds.  When you stand before Him, you won't be allowed to pass off the blame.  "But God, that preacher told me to do that!  George Geftakys told me that was right or that was wrong."  God is not going to let you off the hook for another man's false teaching.  I think He might say something like,"Yes, I know that preacher taught you wrongly, and he will be responsible for that.  But you had My WORD.  You always had the Bible to look it up.  Why didn't you?"  God does not want us to walk blindly but circumspectly, always comparing the world around us, with the word of God.

Acts 17:11  These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they recieved the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scripture daily, whether these things were so.

A Brother in Christ,

Luke Robinson

Dear Luke:

You say that Christ was preached.  Well actions speak louder than words.  For the assembly leaders to associate their lies, abuse and deceit with the message of Christ is despicable.  We would expect this from Satan worshipers.  But to do these things in the guise of serving the Lord is mocking Christ, not preaching Christ.  These people were in leadership and they hurt their flock, this is WRONG WRONG WONG!!!  They used Christ they didn't serve him.  In the words of Bob Dylan:

You got to serve somebody
Might be the devil, might be the Lord
But we all got to serve somebody

All that I can say is these men were not serving Christ.

Chuck,

I talked with Andrea and she thoroughly enjoyed her time with you and your wife the other night.  And, she is really hoping to make it to your place tomorrow for worship.  She is going to my sister's church in the morning, so she wasn't absolutely sure if she was going to be able to make it.  But, I know she is going to try.

And, you are correct.  She is a wonderful, godly woman.  She has been a great support to me in my walk with Christ.  And there is no one I would rather be with than her.  She is truly my closest friend and companion.  And on top of it all she is a great mother for our troop of 7.

I look forward to talking with you sometime and getting your input on things.  God bless you and your family, and those in your fellowship.

Walking in Sunlight,

Joe

Luke:

1)  It is interesting that you ask us to remember who our enemy is.  The assembly taught that those who left fellowship were their enemy.  We had "left the covering of God".  We were often referred to as "Diabolos."  Yes, I would like for ALL of us to remember who the TRUE enemy is, it is satan and ALL of God's children are just that, GOD'S CHILDREN, not DIABOLOS.  

2)  Most of the offenses that are discussed on this board are not petty.  They are serious.  Shepherds are going to be held to a higher standard and it is not a petty thing that we are discussing regarding these shepherds who have abused their spiritual authority.  God looks at these things seriously and thus, so should we as his people.  

3)  Again, these shepherd have taken the scripture and so twisted it that what you are encouraging us to do (although scripturally accurate) flys in the face of the practical teaching in this place.  We are not to criticize the leadership.  We are to submit to the leadership, EVEN IF THEY ARE WRONG!  If you ever do bring up your thoughts regarding a teaching that you believe to be not doctrinally correct, you are told that you are being divisive and you are warned to cease from such activity.  This is the practicial teaching in the assembly.  THIS MUST CHANGE.  If you don't see this as an active teaching, that is simply because you have never practiced challenging those in leadership in this manner.  

4)  God does not say he is going to hold the sheep accountable for the wolves that come in not sparing the flock, who lead the sheep astray.  It is the teachers of the word of God He is going to hold accountable.

2Peter 2 and James 3:1

Luke, the problem boils down to.....for the most part, you are right.  You just don't see that this is NOT what the assembly teaches.  This is why those of us who have left, are continually beating the drum for the kind of change that allows for just what you are writing about.

Laura, Luke R., John 1335,

I understand how you feel.  However, I don't think you realize just how much has changed with the excommunication of George Geftakys.

Let me ask you a question.  From where do your "leading brothers" get their authority to lead?  No local assembly in the Geftakys system ever chose their own leaders.  I sat in the Fullerton worker's meetings for years and saw what went on.  

Of course, the theory is that  the Lord raises up leaders in every local assembly and the people just recognize what God has done.   In reality the choice of who would lead in each local assembly was made in Fullerton by George Geftakys.  You see, Big G. thought he had "apostolic authority", and later, after I left, he wrote things in the T&T that sure sound like a claim to be an apostle to me.

So, his apostolic authority turned out to be bogus.  Where does that leave the local assemblies?  Should these men just appoint themselves as leaders?   Where does the Bible teach that?

What was taught in your assemblies for decades was that Christians have to choose between God's, (meaning George's), appointments and man's appointments.  

So I go back to my original question-From where do your leaders get their authority?  Will they continue the ridiculous pretense that an apostle has appointed them, and thus continue the false system of George Geftakys?  Will they continue to lord it over the people of God because they received an "apostolic" appointment?

Or, will they admit that what was taught in their assemblies for years was false teaching?   That they were recipients of perks for years because of a man's bogus authority?

Or will they face the fact that they need to either step down or seek confirmation from the saints that they truly wish them to continue as leaders?  In other words, will they hold some kind of an election?   That could be done, but in doing so they will be admitting that the Word of God has never been taught  correctly in the George Geftakys assemblies.
Sticky wicket, what?

Will they change the financial policies and "provide for things open and honest in the sight of all men"?  There's a verse that, as far as I know, has NEVER been mentioned in the assemblies.  It wasn't when I was there.

Are they going to obey the tax laws according to Romans 13?
Or are they going to continue George Geftaky's claim to be ABOVE all law because they are "God's Government"?

Are they going to continue the "snitch" system where people are encouraged to demonstrate their "spiritual" commitment by tattling on others over any and all percieved opinions or actions that they might not approve of?

So you see, dear ones, that the Word of God has not been taught or OBEYED as well as it has seemed to you.  

I sincerely hope that these men will in all honesty before God and man do all they can to put things right in their fellowships, by whatever means necessary.  If they don't, then they are deceived and decievers.

I know some of these men.  I have blessed memories of some of them.  I believe that they are sincere Christians.  But sometimes we are presented with difficult choices, and these brothers need to face up and "quit you like men".

I take no pleasure in saying these things, but you need to know that all is not right in these groups.  It's not about your feelings of being led.  It is about TRUTH, INTEGRITY, RIGHTEOUSNESS, and OBEDIENCE TO CHRIST.

God bless,
Thomas Maddux

Tom,
Hi.  I've never met you to my knowledge, but I've been considering this issue of the appointing of bishops(elders) and deacons in the different assemblies.  Although I was not present at Fullerton workers meetings, and therefore do not see this issue from your viewpoint, I have seen some things in God's word to help bring some light to my considerations.
In Acts 14:23, we read of Paul and Barnabas 'ordained them elders in every church', speaking of those cities they had visited
In Titus 1:5, we read of Paul's instruction to Titus, to 'ordain elders in every city, as I had appointed thee:'
These, to the best of my knowledge, are the only examples of elders being ordained in the new testament. (please correct me if you know otherwise)
There is one example that I know, of deacons being chosen - and that was in Acts 6:5-6.  This was in Jerusalem, and was done by the whole multitude.  (At the advice of the apostles)
Beyond these examples, I know of no others.  It would seem then that it would not be according to the pattern in scripture for a local gathering to choose their own elders.  Deacons, however, were chosen by a local gathering.

Now, what I do not know.. is what would constitute apostolic authority.  How would a church today know who has this apostolic authority?  However, I believe that there is yet answers to the issue which you are addressing.  Paul tells us of guidelines by which we may put the lives of elders and deacons in our local gatherings to the test of God's word.  I Timothy 3 deals with both elders and deacons, and Titus 1:6-9 again addresses the requirements for elders.  These passages are quite clear - and are not only requirements for one to become an elder or deacon, but speak of a life which must be lived before God and the sight of His people for all the time that they hold that office.

So, as each individual member of each assembly has a responsiblity to read these passages at such a time as this, and see if the elder or deacon matches the qualities that are laid out in God's word.
Joseph Reisinger

John,


"So, as each individual member of each assembly has a responsiblity to read these passages at such a time as this, and see if the elder or deacon matches the qualities that are laid out in God's word."

The lists of qualifications found in the NT were for the purpose of selecting the candidates for the position.  Not for confirming people who have already siezed, or have been improperly appointed, to said postition.

First of all, there is something that GG and other folks of Plymouth Brethren opinions are going to have to face.  THE APOSTLES ARE DEAD.  There is no one with apostolic authority.  Not in Rome or in Fullerton or in Chicago.
The bible says NOTHING of the office of the apostle continuing, nor about their authority being passed on to anyone.

Second, how are the Lord's people supposed to indicate whether or not they accept X as a leader? How will everyone know that this is the choice of the assembly?
The scriptures don't really tell us.  Most Christians feel that where God didn't give us instructions, we must use our intelligence, and look to the scriptures for what HAS been given.

In other words, we are talking about some form of election.  Show of hands, voice vote, ballots, whatever.  How else are we going to do it?

Even in Fullerton they had elections of a sort.   GG put people in positions, and if you didn't like it, you voted no.

With your feet.

I remember your mom and dad well.  We had some good times together.  Greet them for me.

God bless,
Thomas Maddux

Tom,

"First of all, there is something that GG and other folks of Plymouth Brethren opinions are going to have to face.  THE APOSTLES ARE DEAD.  There is no one with apostolic authority.  "

From reading your last post - it would indicate that you believe that all gatherings, be they Plymouth Brethren, these assemblies, or any other church which has its elders appointed or ordained by anyone other than voting in some way by the local gathering - should ask their elders to step down.
Is this what you believe?  I do not want to put words in your mouth... but I was wondering what you meant by... "how much has changed with the excommunication of George Geftakys."  because it seems as if you believe that the only way to ordain elders or deacons is to have them voted in.  If that is so, then nothing (in light of the "rightness" of the ordination) would have changed with the excommunication of George Geftakys - for you were saying he wasn't an apostle in the first place.
Could you clarify?

By the way, I will give greetings to my parents for you.
Joseph

Hi, Joe,

From another Midwest Assembly Kid (escaped).

This won't answer your doctrinal questions directed at Tom, but I want to make sure something is clear.

George was not an apostle. He never appointed any leading brother or elder based on their fitness to lead and/or care for the flock.

He appointed "lieutenants" who he thought: a) would carry out his policies, b) carried enough popular local lodge support that they needed a title or c) contributed an above average amount financially to his "ministry".

No, not all leaders turned out to be as horrific as others and some certainly grew into their positions and served the Lord as well as they were able. But make no mistake as to why someone was originally appointed to leadership in the Geftakys ministry: They served George's purpose.

Scott

Joseph,

My point is that the current leadership of the Geftakys assemblies fails both the tests we have discussed here.
1. They were not appointed by apostolic authority.
2. They were not put in place by the people in their assembies.

In other words, they are, to borrow Scott's term, Leftover Lieutenants.  What Scott said is true, they were chosen by GG for GG's purposes.  What GG would do is that after he had attracted some followers in a place, he would appoint "leading brothers" from the fellows that were there.  Later, as other people were attracted to the ministry he would sometimes replace the original leaders with men he felt were more capable or more loyal to him.

Now, it has been many years and I haven't thought about this for a long time, but I think that that is what happened to Gene and John Atwood.  If I remember correctly they were leading brothers at first in Chicago, and then were "asked to step down", (translation into plain English: Kicked out), later.   GG was quite open about this.  He would say, "You were all we had".  

Most evangelical churches don't need to ask their leaders to step down, because they have never made any pretense of them being appointed by apostolic authority.  They were chosen either directly, as in congregational churches, or indirectly, as in Presbyterian churches, by their respective congregations.  Only the Catholics and Greek Orthodox really claim apostolic authority for their leaders.

God bless,
Thomas Maddux

Dear Tom and Scott,
Thank you for taking your time to discuss these things with me.  I have a couple of questions.

Scott,
you mentioned in your post, "He never appointed any leading brother or elder based on their fitness to lead and/or care for the flock."  
Do you have any proof to back this up?  I would find it hard to judge a man's motives at every point in these last 30 years.
Also "c) contributed an above average amount financially to his "ministry"."
As far back as I can remember, there was a box in the back where money was offered.  I wasn't aware of any personal checks being given, or of names on the cash put in.  How would George know?  Maybe you know something I don't.
just a personal question as well, how old were you when you left this ministry?

Tom,
I appreciate your re-iteration of your point.  I think the question I had was a broader one though.  Is it correct that You believe that there is no more apostolic authority in the world today?  If there is, who has it?  
Secondly, if it is true that there is no apostolic authority, then would you say that any gathering with elders who have been "appointed" by one man as opposed to voted on by the group should ask their elders to step down?  This is a broader question than just these assemblies.
Thank you for your concern,
Joseph

Joseph,

Of course I have proof! Every time George appointed a leader he called me first! ;D Forgive the sarcasm, all in fun.

You will find that many times in life you will not be able to know every thing you want to know in order to make decisions, judgements, opinions. You will have to learn to weigh many things in the balance and come to a conclusion.

I have no problem stating an opinion and finding out I was wrong. In this case, I hope that I am. But I'm not.

Yes, I know something you don't. I know a lot that you don't. I know about land donated to George. Inheritances signed over. Cars purchased. Companies in names you would not recognize. A small town in Greece. A facility in SLO.

Do I have court documents to prove these things. No. Do I need them to feel confident in believing: no. You may. That's fine. Do some digging. Call some people.

Frankly, Joe, I don't really care about proving any of these things so that others might believe. Fellowship how you want, with whom you want in whatever manner you feel the Lord leads you.

I'm not out to drag anyone kicking and screaming out of the Assembly. But I do have an interest in how things turn out here for many reasons that I will not go into in this particular post.

I was 20 when I left for good. My parents stayed for several years after that. Many of my friends (actually they rejected me when I left) stayed up until the last couple of weeks.

(I added this later via Modify)

I know you didn't ask me about the appointment of elders and I certainly do not presume to answer for Tom whose studies and experience are far beyond mine, but I will venture an opinion:

I don't think you can say that ANY gathering who has appointed leadership should ask them to step down. Why not? Because if you are not a part of that gathering it is not your business.

Most doctrinal issues are not issues of salvation. Who cares if they appoint or elect leaders? Who cares if their women wear headcoverings during this gathering but not that one?

The question is: Should we (as in you and the saints in your particular gathering) ask our elders to step aside because we don't believe (if you don't) that they were appointed correctly or by God's will, etc.

That answer is not easy either. Just because they may have been appointed by George for the wrong reasons doesn't mean they have not been faithful stewards. You may be quite happy with your local leadership. Keep them! Just remember that the head of the house is the man and the head of the man is Christ Jesus - not the elders appointed or elected. They are (or should be) protectors, counsellors, teachers, etc.

OK, I'm done! Just one guy's opinion.

Tell your dad, 'hi'. He was always cool to me.

Scott

Joseph,

"Tom,
I appreciate your re-iteration of your point.  I think the question I had was a broader one though.  Is it correct that You believe that there is no more apostolic authority in the world today?  If there is, who has it?  
Secondly, if it is true that there is no apostolic authority, then would you say that any gathering with elders who have been "appointed" by one man as opposed to voted on by the group should ask their elders to step down?  This is a broader question than just these assemblies.
Thank you for your concern,
Joseph"

Joseph,

We have apostolic authority today in the New Testament scriptures.  They either were written by or approved by the apostles.  (See F. F. Bruce, "The New Testament Documents, Are They Reliable").

I have encountered a few other claims of apostolic authority.  I always ask, can you work the "signs of the apostle"?  2 Cor. 12:12.  It always stops right there.

There are things the apostles didn't tell us.  This is one of them.  The whole assembly thing is predicated on the idea that the NT gives us a pattern for EVERY aspect of Church life.
When you get out among the Church which is His body, you find out that almost no one believes this.  It just doesn't wash.  Among those who do believe it, if you look you will very soon see that there are MANY unwritten rules of church life.

Example, in Fullerton every Sunday, the Holy Spirit inspired the ministry, right?  We did not follow a man made program.  What most never saw was the leading brothers being grilled by George before the meeting.  "Do you have a word brother?"  "Do you?"  "Do you."  No yak about being "led by the Spirit" there.  

What time should meetings begin?  What time should they end?  How many meetings a week?  The scriptures say not a word about these things, and many more.

So, the difference is that most churches, when they are going to decide how to do something that the Bible does not give specific direction about, they just do it and say so.
In the assemblies and similar groups, they just do it and REFUSE to say so.

Regarding the question about people being appointed leaders by one man, should they be asked to step down.   If there was a false claim about apostolic authority, (believe me GG is not the only one who has done this), there shoud be a close examination of their status AT LEAST.

Two questions should be asked;
1. Are they qualified?  An objective criteria, such as the characteristics of elders from scripture must be applied.  But what if they have participated in the abuse cover up?  Or some other acts of evil.  I believe that men can be recovered. But to get my support, they would have to openly confess their guilt, seek forgiveness, and SUBMIT themselves to some OUTSIDE accountability for a considerable period of time.  God's Church has many godly men able and willing to do this.  But it would be costly.  Doctrines would be examined, and "Brother George or Brother X says so" wont cut it.

2. Are the people willing to follow them, to acknowledge them as their leaders?  Just because you know and love someone is not enough.  To submit my self and my family to the teaching and influence of a man, with all the human weaknesses, is a serious decision.  I believe that secret balloting is the best method to avoid social pressure and hurt feelings.  I can love someone while still believing that they are not qualified for some position.  

So, you can see that if the assemblies are to continue, there is much work to do.  The question is, are they willing to do it?

Why aren't the elders and leading brothers participating in this discussion?

God bless,
Thomas Maddux

Tom,

I am a "leading brother" in Lombard.   I hope to enter into this discussion more later.  I am appreciating very much the challenges that you are issuing for us to think about.  (I have not read your whole conversation with Joseph yet).  I am running out the door to watch the Super Bowl in a few minutes.

I will say this.  The other leading brother in Lombard and I have gone before the saints in fellowship (a couple of weeks ago) and asked them to please pray about whether or not they believe that we should continue in a deacon capacity.  I am leaving it there for them to pray about.  We have told them they can talk to us, e-mail us, or give a "secret ballot" to us.  I am not boasting in saying this.  I am agreeing with what you are saying.

Hope to e-talk with you more later on this (after the game and after I can get caught up on this thread).


Joe

Dear Tom,

I am sorry for your experiences with the dishonesty and unrighteousness of certain brethren. Their failure has been great. Thank you for warning me to beware of unrighteousness and the spirit of error. I do think however you will find that God has managed to prevent the infection from this sin from spreading in many places.

I do want to give my testimony to the experience of what God has done in Seattle - having been here from the beginning. I testify to God's goodness. Our desire is and has been Christ - to love Him, to serve Him, to express Him. Our challenge to others is to follow Him. I admit that we need Jesus. Christians have come to our meetings from many different ministries, fellowships & denominations over the years and have testified to the presence of God and the love of the brethren and have we have known great joy with eachother. I'm sorry for your experience, but mine has been truly rich. I can only say He has been merciful to me.

I do have a few questions for you though...  

Do you think it is possible for God to work & bless despite George?
Is God limited by George?
Have those who have been in the presence of George committed the unpardonable sin?

I personally am of the opinion God is far greater than George and in fact He is able to transcend the image/stigma that was left by him. Don't get me wrong, I praise God for those who brought to light the sin of the "Georgisms" so they can be dealt with and eradicated. "Adams likeness now efface, stamp thine image in its place!" I sure don't seek to rebuild the ruins of George - this was never our project anyways. The work here in Seattle is certainly not the rubble of George either. Frankly, now that this has been/is being dealt with, I can't wait to see what God will do! May He truly get what He wants however He wants.

I do say I am saddened by the critical unforgiving spirit I see here by some. I do not see the spirit of Christ in them. I do sympathize for them for the wrongs done to them. May God heal them and there be no root of bitterness left so they too will know God's mercy & forgiveness at His appearing. Hopefully this forum does not become a cannibal feast, devouring eachother because of their failures. May the Light expose the darkness, but may it bring healing as well.

Do remember the end of God's judgment is restoration.

Zeph 3:13 But I will leave among you a lowly people, and they will take refuge in the name of the Lord.

What you, John1335, just wrote is my feeling exactly! Especially the part about God being able to work and bless despite George.

What the enemy intends for evil the Lord can, and does, use for good. And I believe that is what the Lord is doing in this situation. "Don't throw the baby out with the bath water" as the brothers here say. I think some would benefit greatly if they just reflected on their experiences and tried to draw out the postive. I believe it would profit everyone if they really examined their beliefs and discovered for themselves what God wants them to get out of their experience. To my knowlegde, there is no way to delete the past so the best thing to do would be to learn from past and see to it that mistakes are not repeated in the future.

To borrow the colloquailism, "what doesn't kill us can only make us stronger."

May God continue to bless you all-
Laura

With respect to the abuses of leadership, I think Ezekiel 34 is especially appropriate. Isn't it wonderful to remember that the Lord Himself is the True Shepherd and He will take care of His sheep!

H

Ezekiel 34
1   And the word of the LORD came unto me, saying,
2   Son of man, prophesy against the shepherds of Israel, prophesy, and say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD unto the shepherds; Woe be to the shepherds of Israel that do feed themselves! should not the shepherds feed the flocks?
3   Ye eat the fat, and ye clothe you with the wool, ye kill them that are fed: but ye feed not the flock.
4   The diseased have ye not strengthened, neither have ye healed that which was sick, neither have ye bound up that which was broken, neither have ye brought again that which was driven away, neither have ye sought that which was lost; but with force and with cruelty have ye ruled them.
5   And they were scattered, because there is no shepherd: and they became meat to all the beasts of the field, when they were scattered.
6   My sheep wandered through all the mountains, and upon every high hill: yea, my flock was scattered upon all the face of the earth, and none did search or seek after them.
7   Therefore, ye shepherds, hear the word of the LORD;
8   As I live, saith the Lord GOD, surely because my flock became a prey, and my flock became meat to every beast of the field, because there was no shepherd, neither did my shepherds search for my flock, but the shepherds fed themselves, and fed not my flock;
9   Therefore, O ye shepherds, hear the word of the LORD;
10   Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I am against the shepherds; and I will require my flock at their hand, and cause them to cease from feeding the flock; neither shall the shepherds feed themselves any more; for I will deliver my flock from their mouth, that they may not be meat for them.
11   For thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I, even I, will both search my sheep, and seek them out.
12   As a shepherd seeketh out his flock in the day that he is among his sheep that are scattered; so will I seek out my sheep, and will deliver them out of all places where they have been scattered in the cloudy and dark day.
13   And I will bring them out from the people, and gather them from the countries, and will bring them to their own land, and feed them upon the mountains of Israel by the rivers, and in all the inhabited places of the country.
14   I will feed them in a good pasture, and upon the high mountains of Israel shall their fold be: there shall they lie in a good fold, and in a fat pasture shall they feed upon the mountains of Israel.
15   I will feed my flock, and I will cause them to lie down, saith the Lord GOD.
16   I will seek that which was lost, and bring again that which was driven away, and will bind up that which was broken, and will strengthen that which was sick: but I will destroy the fat and the strong; I will feed them with judgment.

Greetings everyone:

Restoration doesn't necessarily mean that the system will continue, altered or not. Neither does it mean that leaders keep their position as leaders over others. The main concern is that the wounded and the deceived get healthy again, and that the abusers (and the abusive system) are stopped. God has been blessing this whole time in the healthy churches that are out there for the last 30 years while this group has been working its evil in people's lives. If individuals lose faith this is a great loss. If the assemblies all fold, know that the Church continues and God's designs aren't thwarted by this. We're talking here about real evil that happened to real people. Don't be too pious about this in your criticism of the others, who finally have their chance to speak their mind. It is early and you are still on the inside looking out.
Respectfully,
Sebastian Andrew

Dear John1335,

I am going to hesistantly voice my opinion regarding your comments on "God being able to work and bless despite George"....of course he can. But the issue here is very simple....WHAT IS GOD TELLING YOU TO DO? .The Assembly has a history of usurping our own spiritual leading...THAT is the point.

 HE WILL get your attention, my attention, George's attention etc....HIS LOVE IS PAINFUL  stuff...to quote my favorite christian artist Rich Mullins ... "THE RECKLESS RAGING FURY THAT WE CALL THE LOVE OF GOD !"

 I believe God wants you to struggle with him, to trust him and to find out for yourself what GOD is leading you to do, be or act...if you don't HE WILL GET YOUR ATTENTION! Beware, he is truly willing to mess with us and our perceptions, our foolishness and our deceptions...The Assembly is in serious trouble and it will take a tremendous "restructuring" for God to bless in the manner many of us have learned to appreciate.

From what I have observed and seen on this site, the Geftackys family and the leadership have a tremendous amount to answer for. NOT TO ME, but to JEHOVAH. Until those issues are dealt with, God's blessing is going to be individual...not corporate. He does honor his word and our hearts, but your leadership is in serious need of accountability.

I want to close in a George quote that he used against many who left....and now seems so ironic. "Having a form of Godlieness, but denying the power thereof". I can think of no better answer to your question about God's blessing to the assembly.

May you find the saviour and trust his leading...wherever it may be and however crazy it must seem. I hold no grudge or anger towards George...GOD has plenty to do with me...but I am not claiming to be an Apostle or leading thousands of christians into bondage. GOD's word is clear," unto whom much has been given...much will be required."

Peace

John1335 and Laura:

Look at the teachings that are in your respective localities.  It doesn't matter if "George" isn't there.  HIS TEACHINGS ARE.  You do not understand how the assembly works if you think George's teachings are not rampant in the ministry.  THE ASSEMBLY IS GEORGE.  He started this work, he placed these men and women who are in EVERY LOCALITY in power.  Problems with the ministry (this is NOT an exhaustive list) include:

1)  Meeting attendance that is required.  Guilt is placed upon members for not having an adequate excuse (extended family events are not conisdered an adequate excuse.)  Doorkeepers are required to call anywere from 2-4 men if they will not be in attendance (the number depends on how much they are trying to harass the brother calling.)

2)  Training homes.  I've lived in them, so I know of what I speak.  This is not a healthy christian life.  This is like living with Mom and Dad.  You are to grow up in Christ.  The Holy Spirit is to be the one you are taught to be led by and hear His voice guiding you into all truth.  Not being controlled by outside sources in order to appear holy or to refrain from sin.  This is idolatry.  It is placing your trust in man for the deliverance from sin, instead of where your trust SHOULD be placed - solely on the Lord Jesus Christ and his work on the cross, the Holy Spirit working in you as you grow and mature in Christ.

3)  Conditional Inheritance - we are taught in the assembly that once you have received Christ you are saved.  But you then must go on to be sanctified (which is a half truth.)  All Christians must go on to be sanctified.  The half truth is that your sanctification depends on YOU.  YOU must do the work of faithfulness, obedience, etc, etc, in order to bring about sanctification in the assembly.  That is not the truth of the bible.  Christ has done EVERYTHING to bring you all the way to glory, His work alone is the only thing we can trust in the bring about sanctification.  Being an "overcomer" is taught.  Only those who "overcome" will be rewarded, this is what is taught in the assembly.  The only one who ever "overcame" was Christ.  And it is his FINISHED work on the cross which, when God looks at me, he sees His Sons FINISHED OVERCOMING WORK.  That is how I will be "overcoming".  Please get the difference!

There are more.  This is just the cream at the top, John1335 and Laura. Please consider what you have aligned yourself with.  These (and others) are dangerous teachings.  This is what produced the fruit we are seeing now.  This fruit IS in EVERY LOCALITY.  Yours is no exception.  You just aren't aware of it.  There will be more that will be exposed, believe me, if the assembly does not take seriously the work the Lord is doing in his house today.

Excellent post, Kimberley! I especially liked the part where you said "Christ has done EVERYTHING to bring you all the way to glory, His work alone is the only thing we can trust ..." Amen, sister!

It is a real joy to see how the Lord has been working in and through you and Greg since you left "the assembly"! You seem to have come so far in such a short time. I pray that He will do a similar work in many others. Keep up the good work!

Love in Christ,
H

Dear Kimberly and Sebastian,
I believe that both of you would agree with Sebastians statement, "It is early and you are still on the inside looking out."
I realize that both of you have seen great missuse and abuse of God's word and God's people in the assemblies with which you have been involved. (and other assemblies as well).  Now from the outside, you are able to clearly see just how bad these things were.  I do not argue with what you see.  May I make an entreaty though?
Just as we are still "on the inside looking out", are you not "on the outside looking in"?  Your view of the assemblies is predicated (mostly) on what you last saw when you left, and bolstered by what has come out about the Geftakys family. Is this true?
I take for an example, some of the cases given by Kimberly.  "Meeting attendance that is required."  "Doorkeepers are required to call anywere from 2-4 men if they will not be in attendance "  " Training homes...This is not a healthy christian life"
These examples may be exactly what you experienced when you were in the assembly.  They may be what some are still experiencing.  They do not fit with my experience, however.  I am a doorkeeper - and when I must miss a meeting, I attempt to let somebody know - maybe my roomate, or one of our elders - simply because I have a responsiblity in practical ways with certain meetings. (i.e. setup, greeting saints, etc.)  I do not feel guilty about missing a meeting, nor do I get any guilt-trips from others.  This was not always the case here in Chicago, but is an example of ways in which things are different from your experience.  I was in a training home for four years. In these four years that God changed my life.  Taught me what it meant to be real.  Taught me what it meant to be faithful.  Not because of standards, (which were not nearly as strict and overbearing as I often hear) nor because of some mystical "training home" truth.  It was because  of God's grace teaching me through the longsuffering and wisdom that He had given to those in the Grant household.  This is a far cry from "being controlled by outside sources in order to appear holy or to refrain from sin."

I do not know how to respond to your last point yet, Kimberly, because it is something that God is speaking to me about right now - and I believe to this gathering in Chicago as well.  Thank you for bringing it up though.

My entreaty to you both is to understand that God is working - and that just as he has led you to fellowship in a different gathering than myself, does not mean that he has not told me (or John1335 or Laura....) to remain our respective gatherings.  Please bear this in mind - and continue to pray that God would continue to change these assemblies that they may be a clearer representation of Him.

The assembly must necessarily not be George.  If it is, or I should say, continues to represent him, it will dissolve.  Even without your encouragement.

Kimberly,
One more thing.  I do not want to discourage you (not that it would anyway) from posting what you believe to be issues that this ministry must deal with.  
I would be especially grateful, though, if you began to delve into what is under the "cream at the top" teachings.  I believe it would be profitable if we were not just told of there being such a volume of "dangerous teachings" that exist, but that they might be clearly brought into the light and explained.

I think in some places, there was a somewhat softening of some of the strictness.  You would probably not be directly reprimanded for missing a meeting, and the training homes here had greatly reduced in structure.

However, the pressure to make every meeting was still very much in place.  All it did was become much more subtle.  Even though no one would state anything, maybe not even preach about it (although that did happen), it was clear that everyone was to go to every meeting.  I think most honestly felt this was the right thing.

Thank you Joseph, and you are right.  I am Irish to the core.  I am very vocal, I believe it is part of my contribution to the body of Christ.  Thank you for your encouragement, and based on another dear brother in Christ requesting the same type of document, I will be compiling just that and will post it as soon as I can.

Joseph,

I am sure you cannot remember me, but I am familiar with your father and family. Your postings are bringing back many memories...ones I thought were long lost.

You are doing fine my young brother...Christ will direct you and lead you if you seek his leading. Things may well be improved in Chicago...and if so, wonderful. There are still major issues to be resolved, and more revelations to come. Wait on the Lord, and be patient enough to let his quiet calm voice nudge you...he will.

I had a similar issue to work through over 15 years ago when my father and mother ( Gerald and Marilynn Mathias) left the assembly, it was GOD who spoke to me to trust and honor my family...even when at the time I thought George was GOD's leader for the assembly.  I trusted the Spirits leading to honor my father ( who I knew was a Godly man) and to let go of my past and to embrace my new future as an ex-assembly kid with no real understanding of the issues really at hand. I felt torn, unable to make "everyone" happy...but GOD was clear...he told me exactly what he wanted...and I obeyed. Now things are much easier to grasp, and I am grateful. Essentially, I had to choose between the familiar and the call to step out in faith...( I'm not saying GOD is telling you to do the same)

Let GOD lead, many of us have painful and open wounds yet to heal...and would "whisk" you out of the situation. Not always the best, for we cannot speak for GOD or even hope to know his will for you.

My final thought on this....don't get caught up in finding out every contentious issue of doctrine or action between old and new assembly issues. Pull your mind back, let GOD softly lead you where he wants you to be.

Praying.

B.

Brad,
Thank you so much for posting what I couldn't have said better myself, though I see the same thing.

"There are still major issues to be resolved" - you're absolutely right.

"Let GOD lead, many of us have painful and open wounds yet to heal...and would "whisk" you out of the situation. "  I think this is really at the heart of why I post.  I understand that these wounds exist, and in ways which I myself cannot empathically realize. (hmm.. is empathically even a word?  Well, if not, I just checked with GG and he made it one.)
I think that your point, though, is the reason which I post.  There may be dangers in the way this gathering thinks, that I am unnable to see.. that may be clearer to those outside.  (in fact, I am certain of this) May God give me clearer vision for I cannot in good concience leave to see them while he calls me to remain.

"don't get caught up in finding out every contentious issue of doctrine or action between old and new assembly issues"  This is a good point.  I do not want to get caught up in this.  My main reason for addressing those issues which I have, is that I am searching for the root, or crystalization (as one has put it) of these things.  Kimberly, one piece of advice, that will make your document most profitable to all - please focus on what you consider to be this root or roots of bondage.  God is working to set all of his people free from bondage - no matter where they gather.  He always works from the inside out.  External doctrines or rules will wither away if their source of nutrient is destroyed.

Cast upon His mercy,
Joseph

I have grown up in the Chicago Assembly for the entirity of my life.  I have a deep seated respect for Roger, Terry, Mark, and many of the other dear brethern here.  Their actions, from what I have seen over my years here, have always been with much prayer and consideration of the Lords Will.   I am not sure what you mean about "experience of the saints", if you could explain what you mean, i would be glad to offer my experiences here as an AK.

Joseph:
I can assure you that when you were the assigned doorkeeper for a given night, and you were in the training home, comments were made about you not choosing to go to the meeting (for whatever reason, valid or not).  Comments were made all the time about you decisions - comments that came from the very people that were training you.  The gist of the comments were to let me know that you did not yet grasp the understanding of what it meant to be faithful and responsible.  Voices were lowered and you were talked about by the people that you lived with.  I would only coincidently be at that home for whatever reason, and had no intention of hearing about your "struggles".  But I would leave that home knowing about your "struggles".  Its not so innocent as you make it sound.  Always a judgement was made, and values placed on you, that were communicated to others.  Unless things have drastically changed since the end of October when I left, you are a part of an unhealthy group.
And yes, the clouds lift when you leave.  Its amazing how clearly I can see the issues and the threads of unhealthy thinking that permeate the assembly.
The Chicago assembly my not be as "bad" as some places, but the core issues are alive and well there.

I agree Nancy!  This is true!  Sad as it is......it is true!

Nancy,
Yes, that is the sin of gossip.  I myself am guilty of the same.  It is wrong and clearly condemned by God.  Please forgive me for participating in gossip in anyway ever about you.  Please forgive me for ever gossiping to you about someone else.  I love you - and believe that God is doing a great work of liberation in your life.  
I can also vouch for what I know in this gathering - that God is also setting us free.  
One thing that is true though.. is that I did struggle while there.  Most likely, what was said about me was true. (not that it would make gossiping any better).  And, like I said - God used those very people in that household, to bring about change in my life that is absolutely, clearly, without doubt, for the good.
One other thing.  I really believe you - that the clouds lift when you leave, that issues become very clear.  Please trust God to believe that those clouds are being lifted though.. even here, even now.
One thing I was taught from Gus Dodorico before kids camp last year... is to always believe God for a child - never to give up on him/her - never to act as though the way they acted last time, will be the way they will act this time.  I ask you to believe God for us as a gathering.  Believe that God will lead us to stay or leave - as he wills.  Believe that God is beginnning a new work, a work of repentance, of change, of light.
Could this be?
It would take a miracle.

Verne,

I was there in Chicago when George first came around with his 7th day rantings.  There were quite a few of us who were less than pleased with this nonsense coming from the pulpit unchallenged.  There were also many who didn't really agree, but didn't really think it was that important - it's just GG being GG.  And if you can believe it, there were many others that were starting to even agree.  I on the other hand had a huge problem with it because:

a)  Understanding the Old Testament Sabbath was paramount to my understanding of New Testament Sabbath rest, which I believe is paramount to understanding how to walk with the Lord.

b)  GG's manipulation of the scriptures and violation of proper exegesis (or just plain common sense for that matter) is the exact kind of thing that allows serious cults to try and use our own bibles to tell us that Jesus isn't really God and many other blasphemous things.

I met with GG myself to ask him about all this at the encouragement of leadership, which I agreed with, as where better to hear it than from the horses mouth himself.  I was permitted to go with him on his walk for the morning, and he talked me through his method of madness, without his bible in hand, and although he was gracious to me, I was struck that I jammed into his normal routine to discuss something that was causing me to leave.

Right before I left, largely due to this heresy, I was told that leadership had met with GG, but that they couldn't really tell him not to teach that stuff.  I thought to myself "yes you can, and should".  

So to say that Chicago "stood up" to GG with regards to this teaching would be an overstatement.  However, in fairness, they did at least have the courage to talk with him about it.

Verne,
I was in a meeting where that was publicly refuted in one of the assemblies.
Joel

With regards to doctrine, disagreements with doctrine isn't like disagreements with politics.  Republicans and democrats can have raging debates about taxes, the environment, and healthcare, and then go out to dinner with each other and have a great time.  Sound theological doctrine drives how we live and how we behave.  It drives our understanding of who God is and who God wants us to be.  Faulty doctrine can destroy us.  Paul says:

"But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.  "

Doctrine is not just a talking point at the dinner table.  It is foundational to our spiritual journey.  I jumped on the conditional inheritance bandwagon like so many others, as I'm a results oriented person, and it turned me into a performance oriented Christian.  

How many times did we hear people being made fun of for leaving because of some "nitpicky doctrinal issue" from the pulpit?  I know many don't want to start dealing with doctrine right now in the midst of such a shake up, but it does need to be dealt with.  Just my 2 cents..

Joseph:
The fact that you needed to learn lessons was the very reason that you were in the training home.  More than the sin of gossip was going on there.  "Joseph doesn't see the need for commitment, therefore, Joseph is not as spiritual as the others who see the need for commitment, therefore, Joseph doesn't love the Lord like others love the Lord (who see the need for commitment)."  Its destructive and manipulative.
Lessons can be learned in corrupt places, Joseph.  I believe that even while experiencing being manipluated and being spiritually abused I was able to learn things.  That, however, does not make manipulation and spiritual abuse good things.
I'm praying for you!  

Tony R, Verne & JS:  One of my issues has been the lack of public acknowledgement....after I left Chicago, I find out that the Chicago and Lombard leadership addressed the 7th day baloney to George.  Apparently, Roger Grant was distraught with George's lack of entreatability.  Yet, none of that was communicated to the little ones in the flock.  The flock was kept in the dark for a very long time.  That alone is enough of a reason for the leadership to step down.  Their responsibility was to warn the sheep of danger, and they didn't.  Instead, they distanced themselves from the sheep who were identifying the danger on their own and continued to outwardly stand by George - even as his ministry became silly and goofy.

Joseph, I hope I can communicate what was on my heart as I read this post.  Your first point.  While commendable, that you are naming the sin of gossip and apologize to Nancy for your involvement, you missed Nancy's point to you.  This is the very teaching in the assembly (gossip is encouraged, it is required of those who want to rise in the ranks) which God detests.  It is not something that is done accidentally.  It is REQUIRED.  It violates all that is in God and as God's children we should repudiate our involvement with it.  You however, have justified those who gossiped about you with the belief that it was somehow for your benefit.  It does NOT JUSTIFY the sin of gossip.  Which brings me to my second point.

Now you are justifying the abusers involvement in your life as that it was for your good.  THIS IS WRONG!  It is wrong to abuse people spiritually, whether it bring about good in their life or not.  This is the warped thinking that has been perpetrated by George and Betty with their "training home" mentality.  The Holy Spirit is the one God intends to use to bring about change in a believer's life, not a controlling, manipulative brother or sister in Christ.  One of the fruits of the spirit (which all christians are to be growing in) is SELF control, NOT control by others.

This is just amazing!  I haven't been on the web site for about one or two days and already it is up to four pages!!  I know that this is a little far ahead of when I wrote and when the rebuttals came, but I would like to speak about this right now, if that is okay.  

Dear Retread,
Concerning your letter, don't the assembly leaders use the word to back up what they are speaking?  I cannot speak for everyone, but I know many of these brothers and know them to be God-fearing men who seek to do the Lord's will.  I know there has been a lot of sin and that has been dealt with.  George and David have been removed, and many of those that have lied or covered up have repented, and some have stepped down.  But do you know the hearts of these men?  Can you say when they are serving the Lord and when they are not?  How do you know who was serving the Lord and who wasn't?  Retread, we need to know the Lord's mind in all things and not jump to conclusions, no matter what failings you see in their lives.  This does not mean that some have been sinning.  That some have lived secret lives, and chose to cover up the sin instead of bringing it in to the light.  But there has been true repentance from many brothers, and those that haven't, you need to pray for.  Yes, many lives have been hurt over the years, and maybe some more reconciliation still needs to take place.  We need to stop placing blanket statements such as:
"For the assembly leaders to associate their lies, abuse and deceit with the message of Christ is despicable."
There were certain ONES that did these things.  It does not solve anything to say these things, only to stir up more anger in your mind and in the minds of others.  Yes, these men were in leadership so they will be held with great responsibility.  But pray for them.  Don't use this oppurtunity to turn your back on these people because a few failed.  We all fail miserably in our lives, but God does not let us go, so neither should we let others go.  To liken what God is doing in this place to Satan worshippers, is not logical, and is not pleasing to the Lord.  He knows what He is going to do, so we need to trust Him for it.  You are using your opinion for most of this article in saying that these men were not serving the Lord and they were only using Him.  I have sat under hours of ministry, here in St. Louis, and I can tell you for a fact that these men are serving the Lord.  You know why?  Because I see their actions, I pray for them, and the Lord gives me total peace in this place where He has put me.  I don't need anyone else to give me peace, because it is only temperal, and empty.  Only in God.  And He wants me here.

Dear Verne Carty,
Yes, I agree that this is a time for judgment in the house of God.  And I think that the Lord is cleaning us up and pruning us so that we can grow more fully and bountifully into the plan that He has for us.  As I said in the Retread letter, the leaders have a huge amount of responsibility and they will stand before God for each ounce given to them.  But I was trying, in my post, to bring this about to a personal and individual basis.  That we are all responsible in some measure, not just the leaders, but all of us.  Yes, not addressing this terrible sin going on was a wrong thing for different ones to do.  But we have seen repentance.  Continue to pray.

Dear Kimberley Tobin,
I agree with you that in the assembly, we were taught exclusivity and "our place is better than your place" type of attitude.  But speaking from a St. Louis perspective, we have seen this problem and are not continuing it.  I personally, would like a real close relationship with other churches in our area, that we all may grow together as the body of Christ.  This exclusivity attitude was wrong and not pleasing to the Lord.  But God is getting breakthrough in all of our lives.  Secondly, I am not saying that any of these offenses are petty.  I am very sorry if I came across that way.  I did not mean to.  In no way did I want to say that.   There are definetly some real serious issues, such as abuse and cover-ups that need to be addressed and they have.  Yes, these men will be held accountable for the level of responsibility that God has given them.  And I think that we are coming to a closure in these things(except maybe in a few assemblies).  The question is, what about in our personal lives?  Can we end these things and stop holding on to our anger?  I think that some people that speak on this website have real grudges and anger towards everyone, and I think that there needs to be a spirit of forgiveness and speaking the truth in love.  And also, remember that God has his perfect time table when He will bring certain things into the light and when He waits.
Also, leader accountability is changing.  In St. Louis, I know that there is a real close bond between all of us, and I know that if I disagree with any brother, I know that I can go up to him, and I won't get shot down or get blown out of the water.  They care and love with a Godly love and are seeking the Lord's mind in everything.  But you use the word criticize.  I believe that we definetly should not criticize them, but entreat them like fathers and brothers.  And yes, we need to submit.  But that doesn't mean we can't still address things, but it all depends on what your motive is.  Yes, God holds "wolves" accountable for leading the flock astray.  But in all the years I have been here, I have not seen that.  They preached Christ and the gospel and a daily relationship with Him.  This is not leading others astray.  Now, I know that there has been some hypocrisy, and God is the judge of all and He will judge every man according to his works.  But also remember the parable of the talents in Matthew 25.  God has given us His word.  And we are responsible to use it.  Lastly, I cannot speak for the assemblies in California, or in other states, but only for the one here in St. Louis.  Here, we have been solely dependent on God for a long time now.  I can't say that it has always been this way, but God has had His perfect plan in this place, and I want to tell you, the leaders here are SEEKING THE LORD.  THEY ARE BEING GOOD SHEPHERDS.  THEY ARE BEING WISE AND RECONCILING. AND THEY HAVE REPENTED IN THE PLACES NEEDED.  AND WE WANT TO KEEP AS DEACONS AND ELDERS BECAUSE WE TRUST THEM AND WE HAVE PEACE THAT WE, AS AN ASSEMBLY, ARE DOING WHAT THE LORD WANTS.

May the Lord bless you all and keep you in His will.  And may we all get His perfect peace in this trying time.
Feel free to write me whenever you want.

A brother in Christ,

Luke Robinson

Hey Luke!

Take six weeks off!  Check out the main webpage.  Take my challenge.

I am confident is saying that very few people can keep a clear head in light of the stunning, tragic, and disgusting picture that has unfolded.

You, my BB friend, have been deceived.  I was much worse off than you, I saw the bruises on David and Judy in 1994, and I kept my mouth shut until 1997.  Even then, I only whispered, unitl the year 2000.

By the way, Luke.  Did you know that there were people in St. Louis who saw David abuse Judy?  

Kimberly,
It is clear we dissagree about a couple of things.  I do not justify the sin of gossip.  Nor did I ever intend to.

Please be careful in talking about things you have little knowledge of.  Be slow to give titles such as "abuser".  Remember, we do not know the hearts of men, only God does.  You don't know my heart, you don't know what I was going through, and you don't know the intentions of those whom I lived with. ( and I know you are going to say - that you don't have to know hearts in order to see actions, but what have you seen in my life?) Be careful in judgement.

It was God who worked in my life (and is working).  This does not mean he does not use men and women in my life as part of his work.  I would be unfaithful to my concience to even imply that God did not powerfully use the Grant family for good in my life.  So I will say it again - I am convinced, to an extent that you don't know, that God did use them in an awsome way in my life.  That is my testimony - please don't trample on it.  Just as I will not trample on yours.

Two questions.
1) What is "damnable heresies" - and would the 7th day fiasco classify as one?
2) What is a good definition of gossip?
(some gossip is easy to see, but some is harder to point out)

Yeah, Luke!  That's the ticket!  Do what Brent says, not what God's word says!  (Heb. 10:25)   ::)

Dear Brent,

If the Lord wants me to take a break and serve the Lord in that way, then I will.  But if he wants me to keep attending the meetings and serve the Lord in that way, then I will keep attending meetings.  And right now, the Lord is leading me to keep attending the meetings.  But who knows what the future holds?  Only God.  
Concerning St. Louis, I don't know who all witnessed the abuse but I know that is between them and the Lord.  But on a lighter note, sorry, I can't help but have hope for the future.  Everything looks so bright!  God Bless.

A Brother in Christ,

Luke Robinson

As I watched Brent type his post about the Six Week challenge, I knew someone was going to quote Heb 10:25.  How many times have I heard that verse taken out of context!

Verne,
1)Right, I've been reading that verse.  Yes isn't a very good answer though - how is that supposed to convince me?  I could ask someone else and be told "no" and then what a quandry I'd be in. :P

2)Again... umm - that was my point - so.. what about it - If you have specific examples, that would help.

Suzie, if you want people to see how that verse was taken out of context, please explain how it was done so, and what the verse actually means.

Guest, the same would apply - please use more than a reference to make a point - what is your understanding of it?

heh - I don't mean to address every post - but I am being very sincere here.  I really want to know these things.

Verne,
II Peter 2:1 says
But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.

I still don't see anything in this verse that would make what George said a damnable heresy.  If someone is a false teacher, it doesn't make everything they say damnable heresy.

Anything yet on the gossip question?
Joseph

Hi Joseph,

What I meant was that there was an incredible emphasis on meeting attendence, and this was the verse that was always used to justify coming to someone that missed a meeting.  Haven't you ever heard, "Brother ,we missed you. " I sincerely believe this was meant to solicit an answer of why you weren't at the meeting, and not goodwill. This verse applies to the person who WILLFULLY, HABITUALLY forsakes the assembling together. This to me seems like they are doing this in a rebellious way.

Taking a break for the sake of seeking God, is hardly "forsaking fellowship."

Joseph...

Don't do it....debating or extensive dialogue on this matter of heresy is not altogether a great issue to delve into right now. Your too close to the issues at hand and have too little outside influence from other Christian leaders or writings.

To put your heart at rest...I humbly offer my own experience with GG. In 1980...when I was a whopping 11 years old...George and Betty convinced my parents to send me to Fullerton ( Cal State Fullerton campus) and live in their home for summer school....the impetus for this "honor" was the impending end of the WORLD! I am not kidding. I was told, convinced and truly believed that GOD was returning at the end of 1984....NO LATER. As Scott McCumber, Gerrod Farlow, Lee Irons, Kris Frederich all can attest this was seriously held to be accurate by our assembly in Tuscola, Omaha, Chicago, Fullerton etc, etc..etc.. so as a ripe sixth grader I started attending the Assemblies version of  College Seminary (which continued until 1987). I was shocked that GOD did not return in the clouds in the summer/fall of 1984. Go back, look at the minestry records for the Midwest Seminar for that time period..(good luck finding any or a Torch and testimony of that era...) GG preached adamantly that Christ was coming...in 1984 no question.  According to GG and his summer school teachings on the old testament...a "Prophet was to be judged by their accuracy" those who were from GOD were vindicated by their prophecy actually occuring...those who did not get it right....were stoned.

George by his own standard was judged false over 17 years ago...the hundreds, perhaps thousands of subsequent details since have repeatedly condemned his theology with error and false authorship.

I want to remind you again.....Don't let these little details block your view....GOD wants to talk to you. GOD wants to know you, to own your heart, your mind and your very ambitions...GG is a perfect example of a modern day "Saul"...a man's man who failed to let GOD rule his home and heart. To dissect his teachings for errors will exhaust you...but to see from a distance his "fruit" as false will relieve you from further sleepless nights.

I am confident in GOD's ability to encourage your heart and confirm these truths.

Peace...

Just thought I should add little something on this note.  

I moved out of my parent's house into a school dorm 3 years ago.  Since this school is 40 minutes away from the meetings, that puts a dampener on my attendence.  Coupled with projects, dinner meetings with scientists/politicians, and other activities, this pretty much kills my meeting attendence completely.

I usually don't make it to the weekly meetings, and I average about 2 Sundays a month.  Now, sometimes I am gone for a month or 2 at a time.  When I finally get to a meeting (whether after being gone for a week, or even those months), i am always greeted and the "Brother, we missed you" is very common.  I have heard this comment many many times, but never once have I had anything but appreciation at the care of the Saints.  I do not burst into explanation as to the events of the past week, but simply take it as a greeting.

This may not be the situation you are refering to in terms of chronic absentism as I do go to every meeting I am able to attend, but just another viewpoint.  I am actaully thankful that I have had the opportunity to be stuck on campus on the occassional weekend, as it frees me up to visit other churches in the area and see how they do things.

Kimberly

Job 12:1-2 And Job answered and said, no doubt but ye are the people...

Sounds like you were in boot camp...sure glad I wasn't.

My family (wife & 3 kids @ time) & I lived with Mike & Meg Glesener. Don't know if you knew them. It was the best time we ever had. Later we shared a place w/Ken & Jori Cachelin - old Arcatites (what a blessed time we had). I'd do it again but they probably won't have me now - ha ha (house has grown a bit since then).

I personally never felt the pressure you described. We didn't have any SS enforcement party checking up to see where the prisnoers were either.

Boy are you sure you were part of the same work as me?

Regarding the inheritance, I don't know about you, but I'm trusting the Lord.

Regards

It does get difficult to keep up with the volume of posts here. I'll try to be short and to the point. Luke, of course it is okay for you to speak about this now.  We do appreciate your perspective.  If we didn't care about you, we would have just ignored you (and as you saw, we did not just ignore you).


I also can't speak for everyone, but as for the Geftakys clan on the west coast, I have first hand experience.  I have heard the lies. I have heard them tell others to lie as well. This is not Godly leadership The leadership in my local assembly also had first hand exposure to the lies, but refused to stand up for what was right, and rather followed the will of the Geftakys clan. I can see of no way that they could back up these actions by using the Word of God.


I was not talking about "secret lives", I was talking about the leadership's belief system.  Lies, deceit, and abuse, this was their life, this is what I saw! Their open actions to lie, deceive and cover up their sins were part of their belief system.  Their "open" actions were to glorify themselves, not Christ.  I was talking about their leadership sins, not what might be thought of as their personal sins. Their actions would indicate that they did not have Christ as their foundation.  They had failed from step one.  I truly believe that the Geftakys clan's foundation was not in Christ, and because of this their house fell, and they will be personally accountable for the results of this.  We are left with many broken pieces, which only God can put together.


Yes of course there were certain ONES.  I was referring to "the assembly leaders" as a group entity, not individuals.  I don't consider what I posted to be a blanket statement.  If there were assembly leaders who did not "associate their lies, abuse and deceit with the message of Christ", then of course they should not be blamed for this particular offense.  But the assembly leadership did do these things (I am a witness), and those who did are accountable for their actions.


Dear Luke, please trust me when I say, that there is no personal anger in my mind towards any of the leadership who wronged me. I say these things to warn others of what I have seen, to protect my brothers and sisters in Christ.  We need to be sure that we are submitting ourselves to God, and resisting the devil as stated in James 4:7.  This is what I am striving to do, I am not striving to incite anger.


Yes, and the fact that they were in leadership and running the show is the problem, and because of this the lives of many have been impacted.  If you only knew how much this hurts my heart.  I pray with tears for my fellow brothers and sisters in Christ.  Don't worry Luke, I have not turned my back on anybody, and the saints in the various "assembly" fellowships are in my prayers (yes, you too Luke).


Luke, I am most certainly not likening what God is doing "anywhere" to Satan worshippers!  Please do not even suggest this. I consider your insinuation "not logical and not pleasing to the Lord".  Please do not "insinuate" that I said things that I never have said or never would say. Let me be clear on what I said:


I said that I would expect associating lies and abuse and deceit with the message of Christ from satan worshipers, and I would.  I also said that having assembly leadership do these things is despicable, and it is!  To do any of these evils in the guise of serving the Lord is also mocking Him, not preaching Christ.  I do not know how I could be convinced otherwise, nor can I imagine how you could agree otherwise.  The reason why satan worshippers came to mind for my example, was that you said you were not taught satanic worship (and I would not have expected you to have been). Perhaps we have a failure in communication going on here.


No, I was not basing this on an opinion, this was based on first hand face to face experience with the leadership in the Geftakys clan.


I can't speak for St. Louis, as I have not had real exposure to their leadership. You say that you see their actions, well I saw the assembly leaders actions too, and the actions that I saw were to glorify themselves, not Christ.  This was made extremely clear to me.  This was like day and night, no doubt about it.  But praise God, for those who are faithful and do serve him.

Of course there is a lot more that can be said about the various "Assembly" gatherings, both good and bad, but I have carefully looked over what I wrote, and it appears to accurately convey the points that I was trying to get across, and I still stand by it.  Here is my original reply for those who care.


Yes, I can only assume that some were serving the Lord, but the actions of others can only lead me to believe that they were not.

                   GEFTAKYS LITE

Hi folks,

My goodness! Two complete pages since yesterday.

I want to add my $.02 to Brad's recounting of GG's "prophetic gift".

Brad said,
"
To put your heart at rest...I humbly offer my own experience with GG. In 1980...when I was a whopping 11 years old...George and Betty convinced my parents to send me to Fullerton ( Cal State Fullerton campus) and live in their home for summer school....the impetus for this "honor" was the impending end of the WORLD! I am not kidding. I was told, convinced and truly believed that GOD was returning at the end of 1984....NO LATER. As Scott McCumber, Gerrod Farlow, Lee Irons, Kris Frederich all can attest this was seriously held to be accurate by our assembly in Tuscola, Omaha, Chicago, Fullerton etc, etc..etc.. so as a ripe sixth grader I started attending the Assemblies version of  College Seminary (which continued until 1987). I was shocked that GOD did not return in the clouds in the summer/fall of 1984. Go back, look at the minestry records for the Midwest Seminar for that time period..(good luck finding any or a Torch and testimony of that era...) GG preached adamantly that Christ was coming...in 1984 no question.  According to GG and his summer school teachings on the old testament...a "Prophet was to be judged by their accuracy" those who were from GOD were vindicated by their prophecy actually occuring...those who did not get it right....were stoned."

I was the "worker" in the San Fernando Valley from 1972 to 1980 or so.  Back in 72 0r 73 some terrorists had kidnapped and murdered a Canadian diplomat.  In a Bible study in the Valley GG predicted that all civil liberties would be suspended in the USA within one year.   Needless to say he was slightly mistaken.  I put that one in my red flag file.

Then in the middle 70's he began his, "The Lord is coming in the 1980's" warnings.  I studied through his verses and interpretation, and decided he was wrong.
So...one night when he was in the Valley we went for a walk.  I, not realizing just how delusive he was, said to him, "You know Brother George, this idea of yours about Christ coming in the 1980's is based on some pretty tenuous interpretations of verses.  If you don't watch out, you are going to discredit yourself."

He didn't say much, other than to ask me why I thought this.
Then the next Sunday he got up and preached it again.
In his "ministry" he said, "A brother who thinks he knows a lot warned me about this.  That just makes me want to preach it all the more."

So much for his prophetic gift.

Now, I want to say something to the younger brothers who are hoping to see the assemblies morph into Reformed Geftakys Assemblies, or GEFTAKYS LIGHT.

1. I can certainly understand why you wish to see the assemblies continue.  The most painful aspect of all in leaving was the loss of all meaningful relationships with people you loved.  Having them turn against you HURT.  I wouldn't want to lose their fellowship either.

2. You do not realize just how many of your ideas and interpretations come right out of GG's mouth.  That Hebrews 10:25 quote from "guest" is a good example.  
FOR CRYING OUT LOUD YOUR LEADER'S REFUSED TO OBEY THIS VERSE FOR YEARS!  They despised their brothers and sisters for decades.  They were "special", the "community of light and life..."you know the rest.  It will take YEARS to see and purge some of these underlying assumptions from your group culture.
"IF YOU LIE DOWN WITH DOGS YOU GET UP WITH FLEAS".

3. Apart from the teachings of George Geftakys, what is the purpose of these assemblies?  Remember, they were supposed to be "testimonies", showing forth the mind of Christ.   Once GG told me he had "blown away" a minister who visited him and showing him many of your parents in a seminar photograph in his study.  "I told him, that's power", was his boast.   I thought, "Chuck Smith's ministry has raised up more CHURCHES than you have followers."
Relationships are very important.  But they are not the base purpose of the church....to worship God and spread the gospel.

4. If you continue the silly belief that you see the "true" pattern for the church and the vast majority of Christians don't, all you will ever be is another tiny Plymouth Brethren sect, smug in imagined "superiority" as you cluck your tongues over the darkened condition of other groups, all the while dividing into ever smaller groups over such weighty issues as which hand the sisters should use to put their head coverings on.

5.  Your understanding of the Bible is steeped in a theological system taught by George Geftakys.  Is it true?  Do you have the understanding to evaluate it objectively?
This is why you need outside help and accountablity so badly.

Enough for now.  Dear bretheren, I do not doubt your sincerity and good intention at all.  I seriously question your wisdom.

God bless and lead,
Thomas Maddux

Dear brother Tom,
Thankyou for your genuine concern & great wisdom.

A few thoughts

1. Hebrews 13:1 Let love of the brethren continue. (leaving isn't necessarily losing)

2. John 14:26 But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, He will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all that I said to you. (Outside help? I need inside help! - aka Holy Spirit)

3. Eph 3:10-11 "...in order that the manifold wisdom of God might now be made known through the church to the rulers and the authorities in the heavenly places. This was in accordance with the eternal purpose which He carried out in Christ Jesus" - (Purpose of the church...hmmm)

4. Luke 12:32 Do not be afraid little flock, for your Father has chosen gladly to give you the kingdom. - (silly little flocks)

Dear saints,
This is probably my last post to this forum.

For those who sounded the alarm - Thankyou very much.
For those who are still bitter, may God bring healing you - we pray for you.
And may God get the glory in all this.

Please feel free to contact me by email if you wish to correspond - I would love to hear how you are doing.
If you have visited us in Seattle in the past and wonder how we are doing please email me (Russ Pittman) at...

thepittmans@peoplepc.com

I haven't been following this whole website very long, but from what I gather, everybody thinks the other person is wrong in some way.  I am assuming that all those posting on this website are christians, a.k.a. followers of Christ.  I am assuming we all have been saved by the Biblical definition which states, "That if thou shalt confess with your mouth Christ Jesus and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved."  If you do not believe that is the way to be saved, this message does not apply to you.
Now, we may all have our differences, some are in the assembly and some are not, both believe they are doing the right thing.  One thing we all have in common is the Bible itself.  I would like to say that we all have common goals, such as, the goal to please God, and the goal to be in Heaven with God.  Regardless as to what you believe about the assemblies, I hope that we can agree on those few things.  Regardless of what George did, regardless of what we believe should be done with the elders, regardless of what should be done with the assemblies,.........etc., we all have a desire to see God's work grow.  I believe that can naturally be assumed by the fact that we are christians, and a christian will not knowingly attmept to snuff out God's work.

Now, there are some who would enjoy nothing less than to see God's work fall, namely, satan and his demons.  There is nothing he would enjoy more than to tear apart the saints of God, to cause arguing, to bring contention, to put thoughts in our minds about another saint, to argue to the point of being an offense about a particular point.  If the God's saints are spending all their time arguing and not praying, not seeking Him, and tearing each other down, what are we doing but playing right into satan's hands.  Do you see what I'm trying to say?  We are in a battle together, like it or not.  We need each other in order to get through this.  Are you angry at another saint?  Have you offended someone?  Make it right, because that will only hinder our power with God.  I just wanted to make sure that we are not missing the point here:  this website was made to help each other out, and I believe Brent will agree with me on that.  Do not use it to share bitterness, build up the others.  There is place for rebuke and correction, but in love, which is not something I am seeing all the time.  If we do not do this, we will be left hurt and offended, which is not what the Bible calls us to.

Some of you may be right, some may be wrong, but we can all agree on the truth of the Bible.  Search the scritures for the answers, help each other out along the way, if there is a bitterness towards another saint, make it right, ask God to take that bitterness away, pray with each other, but above all, don't take sides.  We are christians and we need each others help.

Dear Retread,
Well, as you can see, we are thousands of miles apart.  And I did not see what you've seen and you have not seen what I've seen.  Sorry, it is just that it seemed like you were speaking about all the leaders with the different statements you made.  We have seen different things.  You have seen deceit and sin in the leadership in your assembly while I have seen a lot of light and a lot of love.  I just don't want to see the wrong ones get blasted, you know what I mean?  Well, I see that we are on the same side, praying for the same things, and hoping for the best.  We have had a few misunderstandings and this is all getting cleared up.  Thank you for your post and your prayers.  I was getting the wrong impression about you and you probably were getting some about me.  But I see now that you are wanting the best, and many on this web site like that, are few and far between.  It is mostly an attitude that God has left every assembly and that there is rampant abuse of the leadership everywhere.  I am not saying that you do this, but I read many articles and posts about such things.  There has been libel and other things strewn across this website.  And bitterness and anger shown to different people either in the assembly or out of it.  And I mostly disagree with different people because I don't see it in the place where I am at.  I am very sorrowful that such things could be happening, but I am at peace, with God and with man.  And this is just one of the things I have been learning in this horrific time.  We need to start building bridges as the people of God, and stop tearing them down.    God is getting His perfect work and so we can just keep on praying.  Thank you for praying for me, and if I knew your name, I would do the same.  If you would tell me, I will pray.  We can fight the good fight on the same team, as the body of Christ.

James 5:16 Confess your faults one to another, and pray for one another, that ye may be healed.  The effectual fervent prayer of a righteous man availeth much.

Thank you for your time and feedback.  
A Brother in Christ,

Luke Robinson

Great perspective Strovos!

Let's stand together for the cause of Christ

Thank you Stovros, I need to keep remembering that.
Your brother in Christ,
Joseph

Luke,

I just wanted to say "thank you" for how you have shared your heart on these matters.  It has been a real encouragement to me.  I know that God will lead you.  He is the Good Shepherd.

Please greet your family for me.

And, thank you to Strovos as well.  Perspective is an important ingredient in where we are headed.  May it be that which is of the Spirit.

Under His Wings,

Joe

John 1335,

You have just given us an example of what I am talking about.


"2. John 14:26 But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, He will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all that I said to you. (Outside help? I need inside help! - aka Holy Spirit)"

Here is a passage from the Gospel of John where the Lord Jesus is talking to the APOSTLES.  He is promising them that the Holy Spirit will enable them to remember and understand His words spoken when He was WITH THEM. (all that I said to you).

Now you lift the passage out of its context, apply it to yourself instead of the to the people it was addressed to, and ignore the fact that none of us ever heard the words that are to be "brought to rememberence".

You consider this understanding the Word of God?  This is exactly the kind of thing that we saw and heard in the assemblies.  This is nonsense multiplied.  


3. Eph 3:10-11 "...in order that the manifold wisdom of God might now be made known through the church to the rulers and the authorities in the heavenly places. This was in accordance with the eternal purpose which He carried out in Christ Jesus" - (Purpose of the church...hmmm)

Again, a standard Plymouth Brethren interpretation of the passage.  Right off the pages of the Brethren writers where George G. learned it, and taught it to your leaders, who taught it to you.  

The manifold wisdom of God of which Paul speaks is found in verses 4-6.
A truth that was never revealed before has now been revealed through the apostles and prophets.  God's purpose is not just for Israel, but God in his wisdom has purposed to include the Gentiles in the body of Christ.  And this is to be made known to rulers and authorities in the heavenly places NOW through the church.

NOW my dear brothers was 2000 years ago!  Yes, this union of Jew and Gentile in Christ is ongoing until our day, and it is seen in the CHURCH.  That means the Church which is his body, the fullness of him that filleth all in all.   NOT JUST YOUR LITTLE ASSEMBLIES!

Here again, George Geftakys speaks through your mouths.  His ideas are guiding your thoughts.  No I don't mean some mystical influence, I just mean that you have been taught to think this way, and you don't have a broader knowledge base to compare these ideas with.


"4. Luke 12:32 Do not be afraid little flock, for your Father has chosen gladly to give you the kingdom. - (silly little flocks)"

Again, ONLY YOU are the little flock.  The Good Shepherd doesn't really care about ALL his flock.  Only the special ones, the true testimony, the community of light and life ........ This is so  sad.

This is why you folks so desparately need outside help!  

God bless,
Thomas Maddux

Excellent Tom.
I still remember getting excited when I started to get a glimmer of understanding on how God has made from..."twain one new man."

Keep in my mind that I was not saying that we should stop debating in order to find the truth, I just don't want you to forget who you are debating, and they are your fellow saints.  Don't let the debate get in the way of helping each other along.

"Keep yourselves in the love of God, looking for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ unto eternal life.  And of some have compassion, making a difference: And others save with fear, pulling them out of the fire; hating even the garment spotted by the flesh."  Jude 21-23

To those of you who are fairly new to this BB and the information that has rocked the "assembly" to it's very foundation: those of us who have been posting here since this BB's inception are here for one reason and one reason only, the love of our brethren.  This information, while new to most of you, has been known for many, many years.  Those who have "left" the "assembly" have clarity in varying degrees (for those who have been gone longer there is "more" clarity-time brings this through rightly understanding the scriptures.)  What some of you term "bitterness" or "arguing" is really deflecting the mind (something George and Betty inculcated VERY WELL in the "assembly") from the topic at hand: understanding what you are involved with at its CORE is UNSCRIPTURAL.

Please understand me, I believe those who are staying with their various "assemblies" are extremely SINCERE.  Sincerity does not make you RIGHT.  If you do not go back to THE CORE TEACHINGS, you are missing the boat.  We're not here to "argue" whether there is love for the brethren in your representative "assembly".  We KNOW YOU LOVE THE BRETHREN.  I am earnestly PLEADING WITH YOU to stop deflecting the conversation away from our MAIN POINT.  George & Betty taught your "leaders" and "workers" heretical, unscriptural teachings.  Your thinking is replete with Georgeisms and you aren't even aware of them.  You want us to continually bring out what these are (and we have at various points) but until each one of these localities will address this issue seriously, rather than in debate form, by bringing in the local pastoral community, you will never go beyond the teachings of George and Betty, regardless of the fact they are no longer associated with the ministry.

What are you afraid of by bringing in men and women who have been trained in seminary (rightly, I might add) to verify that what is being taught is scriptural?  My husband and I, one of the newest ones to leave, are so new at this and yet in a basic doctrine class at our church, we are seeing completely wrong interpretation of the scriptures by the "assembly"  regarding the basic truths of salvation, conversion, regeneration, justification and sanctification.  Dear brothers and sisters, this is the milk of the word!

"I have fed you with milk, and not with meat: for hitherto ye were not able to hear it, neither yet now are ye able." 1Cor 3:2 - Go ahead and read the whole passage of chapter 3, it is rather enlightening, discussing where your foundation is laid, on a man or on Christ.  While I know you will, with one accord, say your foundation is laid upon Christ, you have been following the teachings of ONE MAN-GEORGE GEFTAKYS.  He does not teach in line with mainstream christianity on the fundamentals of the faith.  THIS IS DANGEROUS!!!!!!!!!!!!

I love you my brothers and sisters and am praying for you,

Kimberley

Tom,

Our Lord Jesus spoke things to His apostles so that WE could continue in the things He said.  One of my (if not THE) favorite passages in the Bible is I John 1:1-4:
That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon, and our hands have handled, of the Word of life;  (For the life was manifested, and we have seen it, and bear witness, and shew unto you that eternal life, which was with the Father, and was manifested unto us;)  That which we have seen and heard declare we unto you, that ye also may have fellowship with us: and truly our fellowship is with the Father, and with his Son Jesus Christ.  And these things write we unto you, that your joy may be full.  
Now I will quickly agree that we need to use some sense when we read the Scriptures (I don't think we all need to be tarrying in an upper room), but I am absolutely convinced that they had absolutely no "advantage" 2000 years ago over someone that puts their faith in the Lord Jesus Christ today (or tomorrow).  If we will give heed to what they heard, saw, looked upon, and handled, we can enjoy the same fellowship with the Father and with His Son that they had.  The Lord knew what He was doing when He departed (so He could send His Spirit to guide us into all truth).  

Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word; That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me. And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one: I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me. (Jn. 17:20-23)

Kimberley,

If the failure of a man or a few men has 'rocked the "assembly" to it's very foundation', then there would likely be no "church" left in the world today.  The personal failures are something that must be dealt with, but no man and no man's ministry are the foundation of what I am believing.  To me, it is a sorrow that you are so adamant in your attacks on God's people.

I think that many would do well to take heed to the wisdom of Gamaliel.

Kimberley,

If the failure of a man or a few men has 'rocked the "assembly" to it's very foundation', then there would likely be no "church" left in the world today.  The personal failures are something that must be dealt with, but no man and no man's ministry are the foundation of what I am believing.  To me, it is a sorrow that you are so adamant in your attacks on God's people.

I think that many would do well to take heed to the wisdom of Gamaliel.

Observer:

I am not attacking God's people.  I am attacking the doctrine and it's practices.  Yours is the circular reasoning that is so prevalent in the "assembly".  Don't tell me that what has transpired in the last three weeks has not "rocked the assembly to it's very foundation."  Otherwise, it would be business as usual.  It is not.  The members are questioning the core tenants of what they have believed in, etc.  Whether you like to admit it or not, what is transpiring throughout is members questioning exactly where the foundation of their faith has been placed, on Christ, or on a teaching that one man has perpetrated, George Geftakys.  They might not be able to articulate it as such, but it is happening nonetheless.

I am glad that you are not following a man or his ministry.  Then you would be willing to seek the advice of Godly men and women who are not associated with the "assembly" in order to make sure that whatever "assembly" you are gathering with is adhering to proper biblical understanding in order to clear yourself in the matter.

I want to add to that, Observer. I agree with you on the first part. I don't know where the Church would be today if everyone left every time its leaders were found to be in evil. All those heretics in the first few centuries, the traditions that snuck in creating the Catholic system, the Inquisition, the indulgences, all those crazy cults that formed in America like Oneida in the early 1800s, on and on and on! I am only 19 and probably have only scratched the surface of knowledge as far as church history goes, but even through the problems of the Catholic church with its corrupt leaders sending armies off to kill thousands, perhaps millions of innocent lives (ever read about the Children's Crusade? Sick and disgusting), men like Francis of Assisi, Brother Lawrence, and others maintained a walk with God.

Here's where I am. I agree that the leadership in every assembly needs to take an honest look at themselves. I need to look at myself, others do. Everybody does!! A verse says, The heart of man is evil, who can know it? (paraphrased)  But if we say that all the assemblies need to go, what happens to all the individual walks with God? Hopefully they can find another church, but is that what's best? Would they keep growing? The Assembly has had a lot, a lot of problems, but don't think that other churches haven't. There was a church up near Gloucestor, MA where a lot of family lives that lost over half of its membership suddenly. Why? Because several of the influential members started dabbling in Masonry, and the pastor of that church made a stand against it, and those people angrily left and took others with them.

Is there not so much that we can learn as we repent and learn about what God wants us to change? That's why at this present time I'm staying. I love the people here in St. Louis (and you can go ahead and fault assembly child training or assembly brainwashing or whatever) and I want to be there for them. We are all "brainwashed" in that we have parents or guardians who raise up and teach us morals and right and wrong, without letting us make up our minds about them.

Whatever needs to be changed, I trust God to show me, because now, Hallelujah! I no longer will look to one human being for the answers like I did before. I looked up to Br. George so much. I have memories of watching him at the Midwest Seminar and thinking how wise he was, but I've been delivered from that now! I no longer will look at the leading brothers as leading brothers. I will respect them and listen to them because they are older and they have learned a lot about walking with the Lord and they ARE learning a lot right now, but I will never look at them the same way again. If I need to talk to them about something or address them about something, then may God give me the strength to do it because I've never done that before.

At the same time I don't want a little thing to set me off and make a scene, everyone has personalities and I have to allow for that. But if God wants me to address something, then by His grace I'll do it. I'm not claiming power in any way there. That's something we all have to be willing to do. The people who left sure did it, to sometimes disastrous results. But I don't have to be afraid any more! They are my FRIENDS! I love them! Do you suddenly leave a friend when he's done something wrong? You stick with your friends! I look at them differently now, but that's ok! There's nothing wrong with that! As a matter of fact, one "leading brother" here said that he doesn't want to be called that term anymore. Now you can go ahead and say, "But you know, he's still going to ACT just like a leading brother!!" We'll see. He's exercised to preach on Sunday afternoon, he has the capacity. I won't tell him he shouldn't until there's a good reason why he shouldn't. You see what I mean? I don't want to just jump the gun so much. Time hasn't sped up at all, as far as I know.

I've rambled here and I may have not said some things carefully. Forgive me if this is offensive in any way, and let me know what you think it is. This is where I'm at. I'm willing to admit that I don't want to leave, and I'm trying to say why. I'm sure there's more to it, there always is, isn't there? Must we always do what we don't want to do? Must we always do what others tell us to do?

Again, I've rambled. See above.

Peace

I think a lot of people have not given credit to the fact that those staying with the assemblies are people. What I'm saying is that we are not nameless lab rats that have there every thought imposed on them. We are capable of researching things and drawing our own conclusions. Just because something is said doesn't mean we believe it (this BB is testimony of that). We all own our own Bibles, and last time I check George didn't issue a new one. In fact everyone on this BB has the SAME BIBLE! (give or take the translation) I think your underestimating God's ablitiy to speak to people through that (and their personal conversations with the Lord). If the Lord has something to say, NO man can stop Him. Are you all trying to say that the Lord hasn't spoken to different brethen individualy and that the brethen who have stayed have not iintensly searched the Bible and God's heart for answers? I can honestly say that is not the case here in ST. Louis and in many other places. Do not belittle a brother's conviction. You do not know where they came from! Each of us has been changed by this and each of us has gone to God for answers. That's right GOD not George. So while you are debating all of this don't forget that everyone here has done there research (no one who has stayed has been brainwashed!) God is still speaking to all of us and we need to(and have been) going to His Truth(the Bible) ultimatly for answers.

Didn't mean to offend, just putting it out there :)

Laura

Kimberly,
Thank you so much for your post.

"Don't tell me that what has transpired in the last three weeks has not "rocked the assembly to it's very foundation."  "
That's it.  That's what has happened.  If you came and listened to what is said - to what things are discussed.  You would see that it is so.  I can only speak for our gathering, but it has been "rocked... to it's very foundation"

"clear yourself in the matter. "
This is the need.  The need for each gathering is to take IICor7:9-11 and pray, and confess, and do WHATEVER it takes to both be clear AND prove ourselves clear.

I see that I have been blind, and we have been blind, not to see the missuse of God's word.  I have been proud, and we have been proud and elitist, thinking form more important than Godly humility.  I have been and we have been ignoble chicagoans - not standing as a gathering against false teaching.  The fruit, as has been said, has rotted on the vine.  The evidence of an unhealthy gathering is here.  I see lastly, that I yet do not know all that is wrong or has been taught wrong.
I have one recourse.  That God will, as we confess our sins (not only individually, but as locales), be faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

Kimberly, Nancy, Tony, Tom, Brent, I do not want to ever make you, or any others on here my enemy.. or treat you as such.
I am reminded of what I read today in Galations 4
"Am I therefore become your enemy, because I tell you the truth? "
Please keep telling the truth.  We need to keep hearing it.
Joseph

 TO: Joseph, Strovos, John1335,Phil and all current  conflicted Assembly observers wondering about all of this...

Tom, Verne, Kimberly...and all "enlightened" posters...

It is abundantly clear to me and most that it would be impossible to agree on these weighty matters. Far too fresh are the wounds and fears and way too many people are emotionally charged, hurt and reeling from the recent Assembly events.

 After being away from the Assembly for 15 years...it would be difficult at best for me or Tom, or Verne to understand all of the issues, changes and "improvements" to the local churches. For those still on the edge of decision...you seriously don't know what is out there in the modern Evangelical realm of Christianity...if you did, most of this discussion would be MOOT.

My fear after reading, watching and praying...is that we could miss the entire point. HOW IS GOD being honored here? The truth has been revealed...minds and hearts have been challenged even confronted. Now its up to those individuals to seek the mind of the Lord. Mutual respect and patience is a "must" for this BB to be effective.

Satan would love for us all to forget who we are ( children of GOD) and our mission to impact the world for JESUS. I hope we can all keep this perspective and move forward. Prayer is our greatest weapon...not our keen intellects.

My feelings and thoughts are based on the pain and relief of seeing GOD work the most impossible good out of sooooo many of man's twisted attempts to do the right thing. Lets not loose sight of grace in the process of discussion.

I see the emotional undercurrents and pain here boiling around the real turmoil that must quickly come now to the front of our minds....A CHOICE IS GOING TO BE MADE....one way or another. The basic facts remain unchanged....George is gone, the Assemblies have a huge decision to make....re-organize and go on in the shadow of this fiasco... or disperse in a reasonable manner and join with fellow scriptural based churches for healing and perspective. I don't believe that most of us here have the influence or ability to make those decisions and we might want to pray for those who do?

For those of us ( myself included) who have left....we really have no right to try and influence anyone else. IF they want to delve into the years of abuse, deception and control...fine.  Right now thought, the choice to continue or disband is really on the front line and thats their problem to solve. I would entreat you all to strive to encourage our fellow Christians and to reveal the facts related to these vital issues so information is not repressed and the cycle begins again.

Peace my brothers and sisters...

Brad

That was an excellent assessment of the situation.

That's really the crux of the matter.  What choice are we going to make?  To stay and attempt to keep this wonderful work of George going?  Or to disband and find healing in a sound church?

I suggest that the vast majority of "saints," are not equipped to lead a church.  The temptation to go back to what they learned under George will be impossible to escape, short of a genuine miracle.  While this may occurr somewhere, it won't occurr in every gathering.  Especially the ones that had George, David and Mike Zach around alot.

Brent

Questions...

Brad, could you explain what you meant by "what is out there in the modern Evangelical realm of Christianity?" I have some idea, I've been to some youth groups before and a dear friend of mine and partner in musical crime goes to a Baptist church, but what do you mean?

Brent, why must the choice be to dispand in order to find healing? Cannot God restore and there healing be found? I am not saying that the assemblies WILL be restored, we don't know yet. Does a church really get one shot and once they fail, that's it?

Peace,

I am not going to tell Phil, Observer or any of the others what they should or should not do with respect to their involvement with their particular local assembly. If they have humbly and prayerfully sought the Lord's will in the matter and have concluded that the Lord wants them to stay there for the time being, then I am not going to tell them to go against their conscience in this matter. However, I do agree with Kimberley when she said that there has been "completely wrong interpretation of the scriptures by the "assembly"  regarding the basic truths of salvation, conversion, regeneration, justification and sanctification." As she said, that is "the milk of the word". That's why I started the thread about "For whom did the Lord Jesus Christ die? (And why is it important?)". (By the way, I feel like I have just barely gotten started on that topic. I have much more to write, but unfortunately, I don't have a lot of spare time. I have a full-time job, a family, and am active in my local fellowship, preaching and leading Bible studies. But I do intend to continue, as time permits.)

I believe it is very important to have a correct understanding of the basics of salvation, so I would like to encourage all present and former members of GG's assemblies to re-evaluate what they have been taught in light of the Bible. Search the Scriptures to see if these things are so (Acts 17:11). I have been reading and studying the Bible for over 30 years (among other things, I have learned NT Greek and have read the entire NT twice in the original Greek), and I believe that the Lord in His amazing goodness has taught me a few things (not because I am anything, but because He is so gracious and wonderful!). I am willing to share the things that I believe the Lord has taught me, but I am also willing to listen to and learn from others (especially if they are polite and friendly!). If someone can show me convincing evidence from the Bible that what I believe is not true, then I am always prepared to change my views (however, simply quoting verses without giving solid reasons for your interpretation will not be enough to convince me; I am already familiar with all the verses). I only want to believe what the Bible truly teaches, and I hope the same applies to those who are reading this post. Even if the Lord does not use what I write to open someone's eyes to the truth, I will still do my best to love them and treat them with respect and courtesy (I have good friends who do not agree with me, and I still love them). It would be nice if those who post responses to my writings could also treat me with respect and courtesy, even if they do not succeed in convincing me that they are right. I am very grateful for the gracious attitude and behavior of the editor of this site. My posts here have not been censored, edited, maligned or deleted by the editors, unlike "the other site."  Thanks Brent! May the Lord richly bless you and your family! Keep up the good work!

Love in Christ,
H

Phil,

One of the basic tenets of the Geftakys doctrine is that the Geftakys doctrine is the one true doctrine. A doctrine that has been restored to its truest New Testament form.

This doctrine was revealed to George and it was his charge as a latter day apostle to teach a select group of "saints" the true way. These points are to be found throughout George's teachings.

Because of this mind-set, the majory of Geftakys saints have been taught, sometimes subtly and sometimes forcefully, that other Christians in the world are "playing games" or unenlightened, or worldy Christians or carnal or one of a dozen other variations on the same theme.

This attitude eventually breeds a contempt in many hearts for the Christian who is not involved in the Geftakys ministry. If a church uses instruments in its worship, for instance, it was dismissed as worldly as saints were encouraged to look down on these poor unenlightened souls.

I could expand on that and give a dozen more examples but anyone in the Assembly knows in their heart how a critical spirit arises whenever they are confronted with Christians outside of the Assembly.

What those of us who left have found out is that MANY  Christians who are not involved in the Assembly live fruitful, joyous Christian lives of freedom. I have been told dozens of times by ex-Assembly members that they had no idea what life in Christ is truly like - the freedom, the joy, the openness.

We have also discovered that 90% of doctrinal issues are NOT issues of salvation. And we are not compelled to convince other Christians that they must follow our patterns of worship or doctrine.

When we ALL get to heaven the saints who believe in covering a woman's head will be fellowshipping with the saints who have bands on Sunday morning!

More later.

Scott

Phil, I wish I knew more about you...how old you are..where you live generally and your personal interests...

The reason is simple...because there are that many variations and opportunities for genuine christian fellowship. Promise Keepers, South American vacation/mission trips with your local churches...Chuck Swindoll, Jack Hayford, Bishop TD Jakes, AudioAdrenaline, Wycliff, Tyndale house publishers, Big Idea Productions, Max Lucado, Fernado Ortega music, John Eldridge, Rich Mullins lyrics...incredible displays of diversity and unity within a "non-denominational" campus minestry ( ie. Campus Crusade, Inter-varsity Christian Fellowship, Youth for Christ..etc.)

My personal recommendation is to visit several ( more than 2) local and evangelistic churches who have a written doctrinal statement of faith. (ie..Evangelical Free Churches are my personal comfort level)  Have lunch with a pastor, go to their Sunday school or small groups and listen...pray and let GOD show you the marvelous new concepts and revelations that can and do occur every day with his saints...

My other challenge is to look up everyone of those authors or artists referred to above...these are serious and gifted leaders of todays global church. You will be amazed at their depth and encouraging thoughts of every issue you can think to ponder... :)

Good luck my friend and fear not...seriously don't be afraid to do this. I ask where you are so that others on this BB could give honest and helpful suggestions of reputable churches in your area.

Peace...

It is obvious that most of these conversations are getting nowhere.  I and a few others on this sight, have decided to stick with the assembly, while some want pastors to be put into every assembly.  I just don't understand the continual struggle over this matter.  I wonder, why do those that have left, seeing that George has been kicked out and that many have repented, still care so much about the assembly?  Yes, I've heard that everything taught is false and all of the leaders are crooks and criminals, but why don't you write to the Johovah's Witnesses?  The Mormons?  The Muslims?  Don't they need your help?  We are going around in circles discussing how different words in the Bible make sense or don't make sense.  This is ludicrous and is only building a wall again, between the assembly people and the people that want to get rid of the assembly.  Folks, what about the possibility that He is working now?  Right now, through these men, of whom you seem to be so knowledgable of.  This site is like getting into the CIA files.  "Did you hear about--?  You know that--".  Paul was just a regular tent maker before He was called to be a minister of salvation.  The disciples were fishermen and tax collectors.  They did not go through multiple years of seminary, but God still used them just the same.  Some men are chiropractors.  Some are programmers.  Some are garbage collectors and school custodians.  But God will call whom He will.  He is no respector of persons.  OK, so we decide to put in a whole bunch of pastors.  Would the web site fold?  No, I don't think so, it will continue to be a place for everyone to take their personal problems out on others and for others to dictate God's will to those "totally oblivious".  Let us use good judgement when we address these topics, and do not limit God as to what He should do or shouldn't do at this time.  May God get the glory and may we learn to agree that what binds us is not the assembly or the local church but Jesus Christ and He is not divisive but holy and just, and He will have the FINAL SAY.  I continue to hope the best in this situation and want God to work His perfect work.  

A Brother in Christ,

Luke Robinson

Luke,

Why do I care so much? OK, this may be one of those heat of the moment posts that gets me in trouble but here goes:

I care because if someone had followed through on this a long time it would have saved some beautiful and innocent women a beating.

I care because I tasted blood in my mouth after a particularly vicious backhand by David Geftakys when I was 15.

I care because the thought of opening my bible, praying or fellowshipping with God's people literally made me sick to my stomach for years because of what I endured.

I care because I can look back now and can see with perfect clarity how the subtle abuse of this doctrine has affected my entire adult life.

I care because the leadership of the Assembly once told friends of mine that their severely retarded son was not going to heaven and they needed to play George's ministry in an endless loop in the child's bedroom.

I care because just because you have not seen these things doesn't mean they are not going on all over this country.

I care because these things WERE NOT perpetrated by a man, they were perpetrated by a flawed doctrine.

I care because this same doctrine will remain in force even though GG is temporarily disgraced in most, but not all of his lodges.

I care because your dad and my dad were good friends once.

I care because if no one else does, this will start up again within a year.

Do you want some more, little brother? There's lots!

Scott

Also, Dear Brent,

Please refrain from calling me decieved.  I have full confidence in who I am following, and He hasn't steered me the wrong way yet.  As Laura said before, we are not helpless lab rats, but we are people seeking the Lord's will as individuals and as a corporate body of Christ.  I am not decieved but I am at peace.

A Brother in Christ,

Luke Robinson

Well, on the first couple of things, I am going to take your word for it, because Lord knows it I never saw these things.  Oh, are you sure these things are happening all over the country?  I could reverse that and say, "Just because you HAVE seen these things doesn't mean they're going on all over the country."  It works both ways.  

Secondly, these things were perpretrated by many men who were not following God's word.  The only doctrine, me and many others in the assemblies have lived by is God's word.  I am sorrowful over those who aren't.  And praying for them.

Thirdly, you are jumping to conclusions.  Just because GG started this work, doesn't mean that it will end with him.  So many things are changing.  Just keep your eyes open and pray.  Again, we could reverse it, just because you believe George's doctrine will continue in the assemblies doesn't mean that it will.  Let's calm down and hope the best about what God is doing in all of these places.

Lastly, how do you know it will happen again in a year?  God only knows.

A Brother in Christ,

Luke Robinson

Guys....

Come on...obviously we need to let some our disagreements remain and embrace our common ground. ...it will take some time for all of us to come to grips with these devastating revelations.

Luke,
Would you know it, if you are deceived??

Dear Guest:

God would let me know.  And He would not give me peace about the place where I was attending.

A Brother in Christ,

Luke Robinson

I'm sorry guys, I thought the question was, "Why do you CARE so much?"

Caring is an emotional word. The question was not, "What were the doctrinal issues that caused you to leave this fellowship?"

I drew upon MY experience to explain my caring. It was not anger, it was passion. And it explains why I am not going after the Jehovah's Witnesses.

I know you're sincere, Luke, and I never questioned you personally. But you asked for an explanation as to why so many people here "care" about this issue. I'm guessing my list is similar to many others on this board.

Scott

Luke,

Let me humbly suggest that all of us..( Scott, Guest, Brent etc..) were at some point as convinced and protective of our local Assembly fellowship as you...maybe even more so. And you are absolutely correct...GOD did reveal our deception and lead us into a different understanding of his will and ways.

I would refer you back to point made by our "Guest"....? How would you know if you were decieved? Hmmmm...interesting idea, and maybe GOD is speaking to you about this via...this BB? Deception is not a sign of weakness or failure...it is a gradual and dawning awareness of your true situation. I cannot claim to say that you or anyone is or are currently decieved. What is for sure...is you have some very hard and difficult weeks ahead of you. Rest assured this is not about being "right"...but being responsible. Pray about these irritating comments and let GOD's HOLY SPIRIT sift the wheat from the chaff

He does work in mysterious ways....just a thought.

Peace....

Scott,

If that is one of the basic tenets of the Geftakys doctrine (what you told me), than I'm pleased to say that I don't follow that or believe it any more. It's true that I was raised with an attitude that I was in the "best place", I heard it from time to time in the preaching. However, I think people are changing here. I have not heard that kind of preaching recently here, to the best of my recollection. Hopefully we will never hear it again. So, if George wanted the second generation to grow up and continue that way of thinking, he failed in at least me, because I don't buy it anymore.

Someone who's been a good friend of mine for over 10 years (and I'm only 19!) is Baptist. Me and him have a great time anyway! As a matter of fact, God willing he is going to be playing with me and a couple of others at a coffeehouse outreach that some people from fellowship are putting on next month! I know he has a walk with the Lord. It's different than mine, because I was raised more rigorously (as you all know), but I'm starting to see some things differently (as a result of what's been going on), and he wants to start a personal devotional himself! (as we'd call it, a "quiet-time")

Brad,

I'm 19 and live in the St. Louis metro area. As a matter of fact, I and my mom are huge fans of Rich Mullins' music, and I own a Fernando Ortega CD as well. I'm aware of almost every single thing you mentioned. Like I mentioned, I have sweet fellowship with one of my best friends who has been Baptist his whole life and walks with the Lord. I am definitely learning about not to be 'exclusive'.

Also, pray for those of us who still do the UMSL Bible Study here. We have a desire to establish good contact with Campus Crusade at school and clear up any misunderstanding. Daniel has a desire for the Christian groups here to get together to put on a big event. This is definitely something wonderful that could happen. We offer a Bible Study on Wednesdays if that's the best time people can come! What I'm seeing now about campus ministry is that I'm there to share Jesus Christ with people and help them walk with God, nothing more, nothing less. No grabbing them into fellowship.

Peace my brothas and sistas

Phil,

That is awesome....I hope and pray that things will remain that way...
Tell Danny Edwards....I praying for my brother!

As far as the "outside" world of Christians...bro you are there. Might as well "re-name" your gathering...cause its not the place I grew up. If the past comes back to haunt you...reflect on this time and these many wise suggestions.

God Bless...and watch your self...by the way I still feel 19 and luv to jam with a good ripping Audio A rift or two...

B.

Sorry, guys, had to slip away long enough to play Little Bear and read "The Puppy Who Wanted a Boy" with my daughter!

Phil, I have heard that often enough from you and Luke and Luke S to believe it is true and I think it is an important shift.

It certainly is becoming more obvious that some of the local fellowships have managed to slip free their bonds over the past few years. Maybe your parents were inspired by their love for you!

I am very glad you are having these opportunities and I hope you make the most of them. When I was a teen in the Assembly the edict came down hard from Tim Geftakys - "contemporary Christian music is forbidden! It is as bad as secular rock because the evil rhythms lead to demon possession and licentious acts!" I kid you not!

I hope these local fellowships have distanced themselves far enough from the original Geftakys doctrine that you can lead the Christian life intended for you.

Oh, yeah, it's DC Talk for me, but I haven't heard anything new from them in a while!

Scott

Scooter this is buford earl... ;D

Well said my brother...I am off to read "Pirate Island Adventure" with my 7year old..Bethany Rose.

You gotta get the solo versions of Toby Mac and the gang, not DC talk. I would HIGHLY recommend Audio Adrenaline latest album...as far as that goes.

Gang, its been real...

Peace.

I'm just gonna jump right on in here, if that's okay.

Firstly, to Luke R.

I'm rejoicing in that you have found the place God has for you. In fact, I think it's awesome that you have decided to stay because if the assemblies are not going to disperse, they will need alot of emotional repair and they need bretheren (and sisteren) with strong walks with the Lord. And they already do, even if they do disperse.
I'm not saying this is the road for everyone ever involved with the assembly. What I am saying is that the assemblies need prayer and encouragement now more then ever. All christians don't belong to this particular place of worship. Of course they don't. God calls people to different ministries and I think it is awesome that you have heard the Lord's voice and are at peace.

To Scott:

I completely understand where you are coming from, as well as Luke. I think it is important to see that God is at work in the assemblies right now. If the Lord leads the assemblies to remain, then praise the Lord! I know this is difficult... it is for most of us. I know I'm having a hard time... I went through alot in the assembly myself. Not as much as you, but I know how you are feeling. I know the fear that GG will return to his "throne". And it is important for you to say everything you said. But I think Luke R. said it more clearly then I can:

Just because GG started this work, doesn't mean that it will end with him."

YES! Praise the Lord, there is HOPE! Don't give up on them Scott. Remember that God wields miracles. This isn't something that can be fixed by human hands. The emotional, physical, mental, spiritual damage inflicted by this ministry is incurable to us. We can't help ourselves. But that is why we have God. Prayer is our greatest power. Let us join together and use it as one, not bicker over trivial things like the place God has put us. You can work for God in a den of lions, and Jesus is with His children through the flames. So why not in a gathering of damaged souls?
Much Love in Christ,
Emily

I am curious about the ways in which the assemblies have strayed from the Bible.  Could someone give me a basic list of what they believe to be faulty teachings by george?  

stovros, it's difficult to say... you see, as GG has loudly stated over the years, he has preached on every verse in the bible, and had it on tape. theres a couple issues in Doctrinal Issues that might help. For an actual list, i dont really know...

Emily,

You amaze me.

I bet your dad is really proud of you!

And your big brother, even though you called him a jerk

Doh! Was that a secret? ;D ;D

All hail, the POSTRIX!

Scott

Greg,

That has been a big issue for many years. My contention is that the attitude sprang from the teaching. Kind of a chicken or egg quandary, huh?

Scott

Hi folks,

This is one hot thread!  Two pages since I knocked off last night.

Reading these new posts has given me so many thoughts.  I will just try to post a list of them without replying to individuals.   If you care to read  them, here goes.

1. I think you young brothers are awesome!  I don't agree with some of your ideas, but I admire your willingness to stand up for what you believe, and your clarity in articulating your thoughts.  

2. I apologize ahead of time for things I say that are offensive to individuals.  Putting folks down is not my goal. I just wish to place ideas in minds that I really believe need to be chewed on.

3. One thing I see as a remainder of GG's thinking is the attitude that all we need is the Holy Spirit and the Bible.
George was constantly disparaging formal study.  Now we know that God has gifted his CHURCH,  not every congregation, with teachers.  GG did not want the "saints" to learn from them!!   So he "insulated" his followers by two methods; building up a contemptuous attitude toward scholarship, and  actively trying to keep his followers ignorant!

One brother said, "Paul was a regular tent maker before he was called".  Not true.  Paul says he was "brought up at the feet of Gamaliel".  Gamaliel was one of the Jew's top scholars.  He had a fine education.  Not only that, he was a revelator...I Cor 2:10.  Paul spoke words that had been directly revealed to him by the Holy Spirit.  This is hardly just a simple tent maker.  That was a way of making a living on the road.

What about the "fishermen and tax collectors"?  Were they ignorant men?  Most of them had spent many hours listening to Bible exposition every sabbath in the synogogues.  Then they lived day and night with Jesus Christ for three years!
On top of this the Lord Jesus personally opened their minds to understand the scriptures!  Luke 24:45.

Brethren, these men were apostles.  Our lives do not correspond directly to theirs.  We don't give inspired utterances as they did.  We have to learn God's word.

4. In our assembly years, we did more Bible reading than most Christians do in their lifetimes.  I don't think that is too strong.   But we had a very flawed interpretive structure in our minds to relate we were reading to.   This is one of the reasons so many of us urge outside help for the assemblies.
We can see you doing the same things we did when we were in bondage.  You use verses in certain ways, not necessarily in line with the contextual understanding of the passage.  These verses were drummed into your, (and our) heads by constant repitition. When you read or hear them, the habitual thoughts emerge.  

I think I have shown a few examples of this in my posts on this thread.  Believe me, there are many many more.

It keeps you from hearing the voice of God!!!

Strong stuff?  Yes it is.  But how else can you explain the degree of deception we sank into in these assemblies?  How could we have otherwise acceded to so much abuse and pride. With most of us, it was emotional pain that shocked us awake again and got us thinking our way out.

I say this, to you, and to all the elders and "leading brothers" in the assemblies.  I'm not putting you down, but I haven't yet read anything to show that you have done a thorough house cleaning.  You need help, turn to the gifted men that God has provided, and seek it.  Please, for the sake of God's people.

5. Finally, remember the purpose of GG's assemblies.  He called them "testimonies".  They were supposed to display the wisdom of God to the world and the heavenly hosts.
They miserably failed in this.

Now I ask you to think, What is the purpose of these assemblies now?

In Christ,

Thomas Maddux

and you, Scott, never cease to make me laugh ;)

Nah, not a secret......i am getting used to it from her :)

yeah well... I still love him, even if he has jerk-like tendencies  ;D

At least she didn't change her username to FrostbittenToads! Talk about cutting off your nose to spite your face!

My goodness! for a while i was on a kick to never listen to any music that did not specifically worship God in the lyrics.  I have since seen the beauty in many secular groups but even in such restrictions i placed upon myself, there was always that distain for CCM.  I remeber one older brother specifically in this regard, calling it the "devil's beat".  

Anyway, DC Talk's artistry as a group is much more solid that Tony Mac's solo effect, just like Newsboys and Phil Joel.  My fav band of all time is Third Day, with Newsboys and SuperTones close runnerups.

If you want, i can list off quite a few  ;D

Hi All,
 I'm with Tom on this one; the basic error of the Assembly teaching is in regard to how we hear God's voice.  This leads to the barrage of contradictory teaching that GG fed us.  GG's method was "revelatory" in nature; this meant you had to have an experience where God unveiled the true meaning of a passage to your heart. One passage could mean one thing one day and another the next, but if it disagreed with GG it didn't last a second.
  A GG listener needed special "spectacles" to see what the Bible really taught, and like Jo. Smith only GG's saw clearly.
  There is danger in just reading the Bible as a scholar and not allowing the verses to penetrate to our conscience, but to suggest that we should abandon scholarship is to miss the point; we need both.
   Without proper instruction in studying the Bible present day Assembly teacher's will be blind leading the blind.
               God Bless,  Mark C. (care of Eric's computer)

actually i did scott... but i decided i was doing it for the wrong reasons. i was changing it to prove i was the righteous one and thats worse then doing something out of jealousy. soo i decided to stay with my lemonlime screen name.

Luke,

Please read Matt 18:7 and I hope that you will soon be knocked off your high horse, even as Paul was, so that the scales will be removed from your eyes.

I'm glad that you have all the answers.

Emily,

And once again proving that you truly are the Postrix and the rest of us merely wannabes! Apprearantly the desire to surpass you has become so great in some of us that we will even resort to cheating to get there! (Actually, I'm more jealous of Luke cause I don't know how to set up a script like that!)

Scott

Guest,

I disagree with Luke about 90% of the time, but I at least I have the b%@#s to post my name.

What are you, 12?

Scott McCumber

And let me get this straight? You are hoping that a brother in Christ is wounded so he will think the way you do?

Get out.

i find that posting the verse helps alot ;) so here it goes:

Matthew 18:7

Woe to the world because of its stumbling blocks! For it is inevitable that stumbling blocks come, but woe to that man through whom the stumbling block comes!

extreme...confusion...guest please explain who the blocker is and who the blockee is according to you?

Scott,
I know the feeling lol

Gotta share this lil secret... ::) Scott, remember our first bootleg "Foreigner" album...Double vision...? Whew...that was almost like loosing ones salvation to even listen to that record let alone own it!

I hung out with Tim Geftackys a bunch when I was in Fullerton and later in Providence RI on MTT. He LOVED BOB DYLAN...and had every album and we listened to the two isolated ( Dylan only stayed "born again" for like 18 months, then went back to being a Devout Jew and thus there are no more Christian albums) Dylan Christian albums like a thousand times from Champign IL to Brown Univeristy...It was Tim G that got me going into CCM...before it was even called that. "SLOW TRAIN COMING"....wailing out of that black dodge van with orange shag carpet and bubble windows...far out man!!!

Sounds like things are MUCH better for AK now....I am thrilled for you all, as music is such a wonderful medium to worship and meditate on GODS words...

* Total side tanget...Wonder if anyone out there remembers that 1987 MTT trip...? Krista Sullivan was a great big sis to me then and i would love to catch up with her. I heard she had married and stayed with the Assembly on the east coast... can anyone help?

i verify that scott disagrees with luke about 90% of the time, if not more

At least he puts his name out there! >:( >:(

wai wai, it was because of something BG said that i started looking into theology.


"some were given the gift of teaching, others the gift of prophecy."  The apostles were those who were called, just as the Lord can call and guide us today.  I agree that the correspondance is not a linear one, but i do believe there are many teachings to be found in studying their live's that can be fruitful in our own.


Very true.    I find this every morning: a light popping up in my mind linking a verse or 2 to ministry that i listened too.  One thing that has come out of this drumming has been the rememberance of scripture, committing verses to memory.


This is a jump, one that i do not personally agree with.  Would remebering something your pastor said about a verse be contrary to what God is telling you during your morning time?



To be fair, as God's Children, we are to be lights in this world, that includes living your life as a testimony.


I realize that my comment on your last statement demeans your intention with this one, but i will give an answer.  I am still attending the assembly meetings because i see genuineness there.  I see true fervent worship, solid thoughtful ministry, and a real care the people have for one another.  I believe they there purpose is still what i have always believed it to be: a gathering of believers taking no name and meeting in a house to worship the Lord and study His word.




(hehe, qoute not qouta  ::))

this much is true, scott; luke uses his name.

Greg,
How do you reconcile these verses?  If you say "born of God" means "born again," it still doesn't reconcile.
What I was taught is that "born of God" is abiding.  I can abide by simply asking for forgiveness, 1John 1:9 and believe, whch is coming to the light.  It is not just the "assembly" that teaches this.
Joel

See, I'm terribly insightful. A real heavyweight! Spiritual Giant, I am! ;D

Hey, I'm on a roll. I'm thinking 300 posts tonight is doable - without Macros!

I am confused here: Guest - is there something you want to make mention of to me?  I am more than happy to discuss my beliefs on this forum, or even thru email if you desire.  Currently, you are causing a disturbance in this thread for no appearent reason.

.oO(i sense a disturbance in the force...nevermind... just the burritos i had for dinner...) oookay in any case, I was thinkin that myself scott

(that 300 posts is doable)

I do too  :o

Hey now! i had to cheat to be as good as you  ;D

actually, i was just telling brian, i am itching to use another script that would change the actual value in the database rather than having to post actaul messeges.  The problem with this (and the reason i will not do it) is that i could accidently kill the site.........sooooooo, i will just resort to posting meaningful messeges whenever possible  ;)

*gets all emotional and goofy*

But I love you, bro!

*Well maybe not all emotional and goofy, but you get the idea!*

For the record...since I've known him since my birth ( he's two years older than me) .... I can attest to the Scott McCumber mystique...

Seriously Guys...it's not whether you agree with him or not...he is genuinely concerned about your future and wants to prevent you from going through what (we) experienced. I can only apologize for his brillance and passion that has its roots in real pain from the "old" Assembly and its teachings.

Guys...I hope you can all agree to disagree at some point and turn to GOD to make up the difference. Most of you are too young and too inexperienced to become leaders right now, but someday...this stuff will be more valuable than money!

PS. I took no compensation for that comment :)

Peace....

you sure about that brad? ;)

Psst, Brad,

*in conspiratorial whisper* I'll pay you that $100 later.

The Phantom Poster

Well we did talk about hooking up our kids for spring break in Florida... ;D

Yeah, well, you better keep that little Buford clone away from my daughter, man!

.oO(mwa ha ha...only 40 more...)

emily is going to bed now, as she is feeling tired. let's close in posts. just kidding.

lol, i was commenting upon myself

Yeah, sure. Scooter...whhaaaddddeeevvvuuuuurrrr  ::) Caleb has eyes for trucks and bugs only...I swear he is going to be a true Zoologist...err, I mean a Christian Zoologist.

Luv ya man...

Christian music? Wow, you guys are way more mainstream than me. My favorite Christian band is one called Poor Old Lu. Other favorites of mine include The Choir, Starflyer 59, The Violet Burning, and some Prayer Chain stuff. These bands are way more underground then groups like DC Talk or Third Day, which is why you people may have not heard of them!

A great promise was shared at our prayer meeting tonight.
Matthew 16:18: "And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it."  Amen! I believe, and I'm sure most if not all of you agree, that that rock upon which the Church is built is Matthew 16:16- "And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God."

We have many differences here. But let us remember the rock upon which all of the Body of Christ is built: Jesus Christ is the Son of God. I think that God allowed George to be exposed now and all of this examination to start taking place before the Assembly would do the unthinkable: deny that Jesus Christ is the Son of God.

Peace

Phil,

You bring up an excellent point. It is well documented here that George began teaching some pretty unorthodox things. He always got away with it by saying his teachings were revelatory and the average saint could not understand because they were not spiritual enough, etc.

Who knows how long before he pulled a Jim Jones or something!

How about a list of your favorite bands. I'd like an alternative to some of the secular stuff I listen to. I'd post those bands here but I would be excommunicated on the spot!

Scott

Tom,
This is the apostle Paul's thinking.
Acts 20:32  "And now, brethren, I commend you to God, and to the word of his grace, which is able to build you up, and to give you an inheritance among all them which are sanctified."

Paul also said in Eph. 3:3-4  "How that by revelation he made known unto me the mystery; (as I wrote afore in few words,
Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ)"

Why didn't Paul go around and establish seminaries instead of churches if what you're saying is true?

You also said that Jn 16:13  was only for apostles, "Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth."

Who is 1 John 2:27 for?   "But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him. "

There are many generalities thrown around regarding the teaching in the "assemblies"  I'm glad that you are getting into specifics.  Let's talk about these things.

God Bless You,
Joel

Hi, Joel,

I read Tom's post differently. I thought he was saying that in the assembly George fostered a doctrine that stated insight into the scripture is revelatory more than it is inductive (right word?). And that thereby George could use that doctrine to dismiss any teaching he did not agree with, because how could you prove something that was an impression.

At the same time, George ridiculed too much inductive study because if you had an insight that you could back up with scripture then he had a harder time refuting you.

I then understood Tom to say that as Christians we should have a better balance of the two in our studies. Listen to that "still small voice" but be able to back it up scholastically.

I don't think that Tom was denying the importance of the Holy Spirit and the Bible to our theology as a whole, but he was calling into question ONE SPECIFIC INSTANCE where these two things were twisted to meet the needs of a certain doctrine.

As always, feel free to whack away at that, and Tom of course feel free to disavow me completely!

dir snapshot of my christian music directory


2nd Try
Acqire The Fire
All Star United
Amy Grant
Audio Adrenaline
Avalon
Beanbag
Burlap To Cashmere
Caedmon's Call
Chris Rice
Creed
Dashboard Saint
DC Talk
Deftones
Delirious
EarthSuit
Element 101
Embodyment
Enya
Everybody Duck
FFH
Five Iron Frenzy
Hillsongs
Hosanna Music
Innocent Bloodshed
Insyderz
Jaci Velasquez
Jacks Of All Trades
Jars Of Clay
Jerusalem
Jesus Christ Superstar
Joy Electric
Lincoln Brewster
Linkin Park
Living Sacrifice
Losing Daylight
Manic Street Preachers
Mark Schultz
Michael W. Smith
Michelle Tumes
Newsboys
NewSong
P.O.D
Petra
Phil Joel
Phillips, Craig & Dean
Plumb
Point Of Grace
Praise and hymns
Pray For Rain
Project 86
Rebecca St. James
Remedy
Scarecrow & Tinman
SmallTown Poets
SonicFlood
Steven Curtis Chapman
Supertones
Switchfoot
Third Day
Twila Paris
Zilch
ZOE Girl

Dear Scott,
Well, it's me again.  Just a few things.  I would like to apologize for being a little too harsh in how I was saying things.  I haven't gone through the same experiences that you have and Lord willing, I will never have to.  I asked my dad about your dad, and he remembers those good times.  He is still a friend.  I think a few of my comments were a little backbiting and now that I look back at it, it looks like I was slinging mud, which leaves everyone dirty.  Yeah, I know we disagree about 90% of the time(everyone's saying it) but in the big scheme of things, we're all on the same side, running to win the prize.  Thanks for sticking up for me to the "guest".  And to the guest, I am getting off my high horse right now.  I promise to ride a donkey in the future.  As soon as I get up on that high horse, God finds something to knock me back off.  And I believe, it is you guys and gals, whose urgent desires and hopes are what is going to carry the work of the Lord in this day and age.  Thanks again Scott, for your rebuttals.  And keep writing, so I can give you mine.  But all in the spirit of love.  God bless you and all the others here, who desire to see the Lord's will be done in this assembly and others.  HE IS!  Also, thanks, Emily for understanding my point and trusting that God can lead me.  God is using this website in a powerful way.  Keep up the good work.  

A Brother in Christ(who sold his high horse),

Luke Robinson    

there are too many Luke's here :)

Luke R

I didn't feel you were too harsh. I appreciate you taking a second look at my point. I will endeavour to do the same for yours!

I mentioned your dad because of all the friendships that were broken when my family left the Assembly due to ostracization and shunning (I'm not saying your dad had anything to do with that, I don't know what he felt when my dad left and he was a long ways away).

I understand things are not necessarily like that anymore in the Midwest Assemblies. I'm glad of that. It was pretty painful.

Your dad, my dad, Ken Teaters, Larry Anderson (remember him?), Bob Middleton (Logan guy) and Gerald Mathias (Logan guy, Brad's dad - Brad's a Palmer guy, though) were thick back in the day and that is how the ministry began in St Louis, particularly UMSL. My dad is a Logan graduate and I was born in Creve Couer.

Anyway, that's the connection. So I wasn't being sarcastic when I referred to you as "little bro". You are in many ways!

Scott

JF

Remedy is Mike Zach sons' group as i recall.

Daniel, David and Phillip - they have a web site
and use one of georges poems. Ran across it
when i did a google search a few months ago.
Is there more than one group named remedy?

R

you foget Paul :)

iono about the multiplicity of the name Remedy, but it is possible.  You were right in guessing that the songs i have for Remedy are those of the Zach boys

Alright, my homeboy big brothah,
I didn't know you were from St. Louis!  Actually I think I've seen you in some of the old pics as just a baby.  Well, I am starting to get a whole new perspective on the people who write on this website.  Yes, I still see some things that need to change, about how people treat others, and how all the assemblies are viewed, but I understand that a lot people really have a care(like you said) for the people in the assemblies and don't want to see these things happen again.  God only knows.  

Also, on the Christian music topic, I like a lot of stuff, especially DC Talk.  They are a great band and I have all their CDs(except for the dumb rap ones).  I also like a lot of different secular bands such as Lifehouse and Sister Hazel.  WOAH!! WATCH OUT!! A GUY IN THE ASSEMBLIES LIKES SECULAR MUSIC!!  Just kidding.  But there is a lot of music out there that I really like.  I like the old school rock, like Simon and Garfunkle and the Beatles.  I like all kinds of music, from rock to classical.  OH! Yeah, a few of us in St. Louis like to make movies, and we have made a few pretty good music videos.  Who knows?  Maybe one day we can make a big scale movie!  It is all pretty good.  But I still have my eyes on the goal, so don't everyone think that music is ruining me.  There are many, many more bands that I like but I will refrain for now.  God Bless.

A Brother in Christ,

Luke Robinson

(except for the dumb raps ones)

Luke I'm appauled you are no DC Talk fan!  >:(

 ;D

Scott,

You asked for an "alternative". Well, most people when they read this will consider me a nutcase as they probably have not heard of 80% of the people on this list, but that's OK.

Poor Old Lu                                                    Kirk Franklin
The Prayer Chain                                             KJ52
Starflyer 59                                                    Raphi
The Violet Burning                                           Sunny Day
Black Eyed Sceva                                                 Real Estate
Earthsuit (though I don't like that name)                (their lead
Ester Drang                                                          singer
The Choir                                                              became a
Third Day                                                              Christian)
The 77s                                                          Fold Zandura
Soul Junk                                                        Havalina
Glenn Kaiser Band
Remedy
Adam Again
The Lost Dogs
Seven Head Division
The World Inside
Excelsior (gospel)

To ALL and especially Tom Maddox

Tom I just read a number of posts you have out there.  Just finished with number 49.  Brother I haven't found anything you have said to be offensive.  I appreciate the balance in what you are saying.

What is the hardest thing for a person to admit?  Would it be I was deceived.  I don't know?  But that seems like a pretty big pill to swallow.  
I do appreciate what I have been reading on this site.  I sense some people have an axe to grid.  I sense some is reactionary.  But that is okay.  It is their reaction and their axe.  I am trying to filter out the truth as I go along regardless of how it is dispensed.  Many others have very well thought out posts.

I do sense you have a real care for God's people.  May God continue you to bless His people.

I have several things on my heart.
I must admit as I write this post there is a sorrow upon my heart.
Mark says a house divided against itself cannot stand.  Those are pretty harse words.  I do believe there are many in Fullerton that want to see recovery.  But I see invisible lines that have been drawn.
It seems there is the we and thems.  The leadership has stepped down and now there is so much mistrust.  I'm not saying there shouldn't be a watchfullness and a carefullness.  But how can there ever be wholeness without a total clearing and forgiveness?

The more I read what you have posted the more I am inclined to agree with the need for outside help.  I believe it is deeper than teaching - I'm not trying to minimize that.  But I think it goes to the heart and soul of every person left.  We have a prayer meeting tonight.  May God give me the courage to utter the need for outside help.  We need healing.  We need to be able to let go and trust God for each others lives.  Please Pray for us.

I think I orginally put some posts out here with the intent to show not all of us are mindless, non feeling puppets.  I wanted others to know that there are still some of us left that have freely chosen to be there.
Probably some wounded pride mixed with some good intentions.
I still believe that.  But the bottom line is my heart is breaking from what I see transpiring.
"He who comes to me, I will in wise cast out"  
 
To all:  I have enjoyed so many of the posts out there.  Some of you have a wonderful sense of humor.  To those of you that have been abused, offended or wounded in any way, it may seem trite but your pain has touched my heart.  Much of what has been said has been searching, humbling, and instructive.

To those that I have had chance to reconnect with or to converse with on this bulletin board.  Thank you.

God bless you
I won't be looking at this board for several days.  I need a rest.
Feel free to send your comments to gary@shurflo.com

Lord bless you

I can testify personally of the experience of suddenly realizing how steeped I was in Assembly thinking.

It happened on a Sunday afternoon.  It was about the time that Steve Irons had left and there was much damage control preaching.  Every time we came to the word “elder” in the book of Judges, we found George preaching against weak elders who “abandon the flock”.

Steve leaving was the biggest shakeup to date.  The walls of the testimony were damaged and instead of the enemy coming in like a flood, many of the captives were trying to escape.  On that particular Sunday morning, Mark Miller got up and shared ministry on “scriptural reasons for leaving”.  The thrust of the message was that you could leave if you are sent out into the work or moving to where another assembly is.  Any other reason is being devisive.  We should therefore mark the devisive people and avoid them.

I was so distraught that I literally could not make myself go to the Sunday afternoon meeting.  My feelings were that even going to the movies would be more edifying.  

I didn’t go to the movies.  Instead, I knocked on the door of Tom Maddux who had exited the Assembly some time earlier.  I certainly knew who Tom was having lived next door at one time in Steve Iron’s house, but I didn’t know Tom that well.  

When he answered the door, Tom gave a look of “well, here’s another one” and invited me in.

We talked but he knew my story as it has been told a hundred times before.

At one point, I questioned about the verse in Matthew that said “Where two or three are gathered unto my name, there I am into their midst.”  I had always been taught that it isn’t a matter of two or three getting together to pray and Jesus is suddenly there.  Isn’t the verb an action word implying the active work of God gathering a testimony unto him?

Tom rolled his eyes and said, “Give me a break!”  He then put some coins on the table and we had the following conversation:

Tom:  Gather the coins together.
Me:  Huh?
Tom:  Just gather the coins together.
Me:  (I gathered the coins)  OK.
Tom:   Are the coins gathered?
Me:  Yes.
Tom:  (Tom scattered the coins).  OK, now I’ll gather the coins together.
Me:  OK
Tom:  Are the coins gathered?
Me:  Yes.
Tom:  What’s the difference?

Suddenly, it felt like scales fell from my eyes.  I realized that in the plain English of the verse, it was speaking about people gathering together in Christ’s name.  It had no reference as to who did the gathering or what manner in which the gathering took place.  Everything else was a theological grid that was read into the verse as a result of Assembly assumptions and mindset.

So I echo Tom’s concern.  It is important that you deliberately expose yourself to outside source material and try to understand where the authors are coming from.  

Brent told me that he is going to post my article on “getting back to the book of Acts” soon.  I think this may help you deal with some of the presuppositions unwittingly made in the Assembly.  Most of the things in that article was based on a book that revolutionized my thinking about the Bible called “How to Read the Bible for all its worth” by Gordon Fee.  This book discusses some basic ground rules and restraints we need to follow when seeking to interpret the Bible.  When you see how historical narratives were spiritualized, parables were allegorized, side events were made into binding church policy, epistles were decontextualized, Psalms were stripped of their poetic genre and Prophetic Scriptures were turned away from their intended audience and applied to the wayward soul, you will understand why we read so much but understood so little.

Also, as Gary Wilson reminded us – it is not all doctrinal.  Get involved in relationships in a non-leadership position such as an Adult Sunday School, music ministry, small group, etc.  Learn to be friends, enjoy people, and watch the example of people who because godly without the Assembly’s help.

I would ask Tom, Mark Campbell and others (who have been out of the Assembly at least five years) to suggest books and resources that have been key to clearly challenging the false assumptions we had made for years while trapped behind the Great Wall of Testimony.

Dave I remember that message on "scriptual way to leave" by Mark as if it were yesterday.  What a  drag it was to learn from the scriptures that I couldn't attend a different church in the will of God.

Laura Just read your post  (boy this website is getting too big)  Anyway   Let me first validate your experience in coming into fellowship.  Yes for you at this time it genuinly works! But Just like Tom said we all felt the way you do when we first came into fellowship.  For me in 1980 It was great to be in the midst of a group of my peers.  They gave me the family I needed so badly. It was great to be able to have a scriptual answer for every issue. It was great to have the burden of reality lifted off of me as I found my lifes calling at that moment.  It was so clear cut simple. Yet as I got older the complexities of life were making things more and more difficult to just accept by "faith"  I honestly feel that some people stay in the assembly for so long because just as it is for you now it continues to work for them. The fact that my wife left me and my family died off has forced me to seek answers that couldn't be found in the assembly.  For this I am grateful.

I finally read through this string today, and I've seen some very powerful messages from some of you.  I was wondering, Tom M, Greg T, Scott M, GaryWilson, what kind of churches are you involved with and have been involved with since leaving "fellowship"?  
Jim  

I agree that the Lord has brought me here.  I haven't been involved with the Assembly very long, as a matter of fact, only  Three or Four months.  I was losted.  Looking for a place of fellowship that would resept me and act like christians should. I wanted a place where ...(to quote as song) everybody knows your name.  The first day I went, I was hooked.  I couldn't believe that there were people who cared about the Lord and each other.  It was like one big family.  Everytime I go, I get something out of it.  I further my walk with the Lord everday because of the people and God.  One thing I learned and I would like to share it the fact that God gives us what we can handle. That has been my life's lesson.  God knows the outcome of all of this.  The only thing we can do is to pray for God to do good with this.  We will be so much stronger.  Laura, God brought me here to.  Although I never really got a chance to see or really hear George, I can see the impact.  I am not affected directly because I just did know him.  I still trust that this could only lead to good things.
God Bless.
CC