James
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« Reply #315 on: July 16, 2003, 09:49:37 am » |
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The main problem in the assembly was not in what was said most of the time, but what was inferred. There was what was said, but then there was meant and what was practiced.
When I was first saved I just wanted to serve my Lord who loved me so much He would die for me. In the church I attended I saw some dear people who were humble servants. They loved God and it was demonstrated by their love for others. There was also ones there who were very lazy and slothful christians. Had no stomach for various ministries or for the word of God. The preaching from the pastor would always refer to our salvation and how we all would be receiving the same glory of heaven. In my simplicity I had a difficulty reconciling the teaching that no matter how one lived on earth, the salvation and inheritance would be the same for everyone. When I first heard that salvation from the wrath which is to come is different than the salvation into the eternal kingdom it seemed to answer some of those questions I had. Biblical verbs like strive, run, pursue gave meaning to the concept of reward. I could see there were faithful ones that would be rewarded and unfaithful ones that would miss out as in 1 Cor 3. The problem with the assembly to me was the practice. Control, demands, guilt. That wasn't faith in response to God's love. I did not think and still don't think that the assembly doctrine/theology was cultic. I haven't been convinced by the articles by Lee Irons either. I think there is a lot of things that are tainting his perspective. |
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sfortescue
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« Reply #316 on: July 16, 2003, 02:26:09 pm » |
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You make the distinction between those who are humble servants and those who are lazy with no interest in the word or work of God.
Which category would you place yourself in?
I would imagine that a humble servant would not be so bold as to evaluate the lives of other christians.
A lazy christian would study the word of God carelessly and come to conclusions based on what he felt was right rather than what the Bible really says. His practice would also be decided based on what he felt was right, so that he could well end up acting just like the Pharisees, putting on a good show.
Matt. 16:6
Then Jesus said unto them, Take heed and beware of the leaven of the Pharisees and of the Sadducees.
Jesus' warning is because it is so deceptive. If you look up all the verses that talk about the Pharisees, you will find that they are a pretty good description of what's wrong with the assembly.
Here is an interesting verse in light of the question of rewards:
Matt 20:12
... These last have wrought but one hour, and thou hast made them equal unto us, which have borne the burden and heat of the day.
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James
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« Reply #317 on: July 16, 2003, 07:15:13 pm » |
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I would imagine that a humble servant would not be so bold as to evaluate the lives of other christians.
That is a great point! There may be some others you could chastise with that as well. |
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Mark C.
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« Reply #318 on: July 16, 2003, 08:12:29 pm » |
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Hi James!
I wrote a book based on my own involvement in the Assembly (never published) called "On Fire". It revealed my own desire to be involved with a group of "serious" Christians. In an attitude similar to yours, in the little church I was attending before I came into the Assembly, I despised the weak commitment of the members and even went forward at a Gospel invitation for the express purpose of exhorting the members.
My attitude was elitist and snobbish, and certainly without any kindness or compassion. The people there noticed it and as such received nothing from my urgings.
There was something very wrong in my own heart that caused me to look down my nose at other Christians and decide that they didn't measure up. We cannot interpret the Word of God based on a desire to promote a merit relationship with God that seems to meet a perverted need we have. From just such superior attitudes have sprung innumerable cults, and with these attitudes corresponding doctrine to support their claim to superiority.
My 20 years in the Assembly were the means to finally show me that salvation is by grace alone and that I'm not superior to my brethren--- It is all to the praise of the glory of His grace! To despise that message and to seek to add a merit component reveals more about our own hearts' than maybe we care to admit.
God Bless, Mark
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Arthur
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« Reply #319 on: July 16, 2003, 08:48:45 pm » |
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I agree with Mark and Stephen.
When I first started going to assembly meetings and even before that I was wondering what was wrong with most of the Christians I knew.
They didn't seem to be very zealous for what was obviously the most important thing in all eternity, the very purpose for which they were created, to serve Christ Jesus our Lord who loved us so much he gave his life for us! It seemed like they just didn't see it. Seemed like they were careless about it, casual, unaffected.
When I joined the assembly I thought, "Man, these guys really know their Bibles! So many Christians I know can't tell me Hezekiah from II Hesitations. And these guys seem to live such holy lives, just like the Bible says. They don't just say they're Christians, they're actually doing something about it. Bible studies, prayer meetings, witnessing(wow!), open air preaching(double wow!), worship(real worship in God's appointed way, not like worldy Christian worship-triple wow!), just like the Bible says we should do--real devotion to Christ. That's what I want to do..."
At the time, I was so assured in my heart that this is right, the right thing to do and the right way of looking at it. But in hindsight, I see that I was wrong. I see that being so proud in condemning some believers while thinking that others were so great is the opposite of what Jesus stood for. I believe that God used the assembly in my life to humble me from that pride. I still have a long ways to go.
23 And they began to enquire among themselves, which of them it was that should do this thing. 24 And there was also a strife among them, which of them should be accounted the greatest. 25 And he said unto them, The kings of the Gentiles exercise lordship over them; and they that exercise authority upon them are called benefactors. 26 But ye shall not be so: but he that is greatest among you, let him be as the younger; and he that is chief, as he that doth serve. Luke 22:23-26
Interesting that this arguement arose just as Jesus was telling his disciples how he was going to give himself for them, and then told them that one would betray him. First they began suspecting each other of who it might be, and then the arguement arose of who was the greatest. Doesn't that just describe how we came to our conclusions of superiority?
And apparently, they had a problem with this kind of attitude because they argued about it more than once.
33 And he came to Capernaum: and being in the house he asked them, What was it that ye disputed among yourselves by the way? 34 But they held their peace: for by the way they had disputed among themselves, who should be the greatest. 35 And he sat down, and called the twelve, and saith unto them, If any man desire to be first, the same shall be last of all, and servant of all. 36 And he took a child, and set him in the midst of them... Mark 9:33-36a
And then there was that time when the mother of James and John asked Jesus that her sons be at the right and left hands of Jesus in the kingdom, and the other 10 disciples were indignant with them.
And also there is this warning.
Then Jesus said unto them, Take heed and beware of the leaven of the Pharisees and of the Sadducees. Matt 16:6
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« Last Edit: July 16, 2003, 08:49:26 pm by Arthur »
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James
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« Reply #320 on: July 16, 2003, 09:12:21 pm » |
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I think the point I made is getting lost.
As a young christian I had observations. They were not condemnations, merely observations. The area I had concern about was the doctrine that if you asked Jesus into your heart you will receive the same reward from God as all other christians regardless of how one lived their life.
I have a difficulty with that teaching. It does not appear to line up with 2Cor 5:10
"For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad."
From that is it accurate to say God has reward to those who are faithful and something less for those who are not?
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Arthur
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« Reply #321 on: July 16, 2003, 09:44:02 pm » |
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I think the point I made is getting lost.
As a young christian I had observations. They were not condemnations, merely observations. The area I had concern about was the doctrine that if you asked Jesus into your heart you will receive the same reward from God as all other christians regardless of how one lived their life.
I have a difficulty with that teaching. It does not appear to line up with 2Cor 5:10
"For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad."
From that is it accurate to say God has reward to those who are faithful and something less for those who are not?
Ok, I see what you are saying. Your question is about rewards. Will we be rewarded (and flip side, punished) for our behavior here on earth? That's quite a study. You know, I have the same questions--I'd like to look into this more. Let me know what you find as well, please. I will say that, from what I've studied so far, my view has changed from what it was in the assembly. I no longer am anxious about my performance determining my status in heaven, but rather rest secure in God's sovereign control over my life. I do not worry about what rewards that I'll receive or not receive. I figure that God has a plan for my life, that I'll just walk in the good works that God has prepared for me to walk in, out of gratitude to him. "For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them." On the ga website, they have several quotes about rewards that are worthy of notice. http://www.geftakysassembly.com/Articles/TeachingPractice/QuotationsOnRewards.htm |
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Mark C.
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« Reply #322 on: July 16, 2003, 11:00:20 pm » |
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Hi James!
I don't think that we really are getting off the subject, but it could be that we're having trouble with our semantics here, and that is to be expected because of what we were taught in the Assembly. Semantics (what words mean) is a discussion that can be very profitable.
When you used the word, "salvation" and split it into "salvation from wrath" and "salvation unto reward" you made an Assembly distinction that is not found in the Bible. Salvation is a separate category from rewards and needs to have a clear line drawn between them. When we start to mix these two distinct teachings we veer into the error of Galatianism.
The Bible most certainly urges obedience, and an energetic following of Christ, but this ability comes through the power of the Holy Spirit in our lives. Here is where it becomes tricky: How much is of God and how much is of my effort? Easy formulas for "successful discipleship", where we attempt to actualize the Spirit in our lives fail because we don't understand the depth of our own personality (and I don't suggest we try to plummet those depths ourselves).
Grace in the Christian life, as in new birth, is a miraculous work of God that will always end up redounding to the glory of God, and not our efforts. All crowns will be cast at His feet when we get there, for there will be a recognition that even our rewards were from Him!
Re. the Assembly being heretical/ and or cultic: It is difficult to have a discussion from the Bible on whether Assembly teaching is cultic, for that is a non-biblical term. The confusion of grace by telling Christians they need to see salvation split into two components is clearly heretical as described in Galatians. We must question our own thinking on this if our reaction is "we don't like that teaching" vs. what the Bible teaches.
Mormonism and Jehovah Witnesses began because they were concerned by the low level of commitment they saw in evangelical churches and a reaction against what they saw as "cheap grace". Paul saw the Judaizers of Galatians (and in the rest of the NT) concern for a "more serious" commitment as a very dangerous shift away from the centrality of the work of Jesus Christ.
The Bible does not separate teaching and practice the way many cult watching groups do (orthodoxy and orthopraxy). Paul lists "heresy" as a work of the flesh (sinful nature), which means the determined mind set to not see what the Bible clearly teaches is not an intellectual problem, but something wrong in the heart of the proponent of false doctrine. The desire to "be somebody" in a religious sphere was a mindset that Paul in Philp. 3 declares that he had to abandon in order to understand and pursue a life pleasing to God.
You mention that the Assembly was "cultic" only in practice,but not in doctrine, but the two always go together. Right understanding comes from the wisdom that descends from above and always produces good fruit and vice versa.(James 3)
God Bless, Mark
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Joe Sperling
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« Reply #323 on: July 17, 2003, 12:45:49 am » |
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I think Mark is absolutely correct in what he says below and especially regarding rewards. Rewards at the end will be seen as a "gift" from God also, not something we have "earned".
It all goes to motivation I think. When you really think about it, what will be the greater reward? The crown the Lord has in his hands for you, or the smile on his face as he gives it to you? That smile alone will cause you to throw that crown at his feet--the crown is worth so far much less than the Lord himself.
--Joe
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« Last Edit: July 17, 2003, 12:47:03 am by Joe Sperling »
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Arthur
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« Reply #324 on: July 17, 2003, 01:58:41 am » |
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Is there any reward greater than the Lord Jesus Christ and God the Father?
At that day ye shall know that I am in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you.
Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him. He that loveth me not keepeth not my sayings.
I don't see varying degrees of either service or reward here. It's either-or and the reward is without compare.
If you or I were not to get to sit "at the right hand and at the left hand" of Christ in the Kingdom, would we be depressed for all eternity? I don't think so. I think we'd still be so happy just to be with Jesus.
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« Last Edit: July 17, 2003, 02:01:23 am by Arthur »
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Tanya
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« Reply #325 on: July 17, 2003, 03:15:14 am » |
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Re. JAMES' comments: You have made some good observations & have asked some thought-provoking questions. That's why this BB is useful! As for the answers, it take a while... how long have you been "out?" A few days/months? It takes longer than many think to merely digest all of what transpired, let alone get re-programmed... As you fellowship w/other Christians (not just the same saints you've been around for 5/10/20+ yrs or so...) you'll be changed. As you hear preaching from godly, HONEST preachers (at church, on the radio, etc) your perspective will be changed. As you read books about controlling & sometimes abusive groups, you'll be changed. [This one is important because many who have left the asembly won't dare to read books like this because they don't think much was wrong w/the group. They would STILL be there if it weren't for the G. family.] Most important is the willingness to say, "God--I don't know what is really true... what about this and that... I was taught such and such... is that really right? I want to know the TRUTH." Sure, you can pull a few phrases out of GG's books that are true. Yep. I can do the same thing w/the Book of Mormon, the Watchtower literature and the Koran! And be willing to admit that we were wrong about many things. As we stop clinging to a pattern/vision/way of meeting/do this/don't do that/celebrate this but not that.... mentality..... we can START clinging to the Lord and rest in Him  |
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« Last Edit: July 17, 2003, 03:18:52 am by Tanya »
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sfortescue
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« Reply #326 on: July 17, 2003, 09:32:14 am » |
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I would imagine that a humble servant would not be so bold as to evaluate the lives of other christians.
That is a great point! There may be some others you could chastise with that as well. You got me there! On rereading my post I can see that it is pretty bad. Go ahead and chastise me: I deserve it; and perhaps forgive me too, if I can dare to ask such a thing.
Maybe the question of rewards is better viewed on an individual basis, and not as a matter of comparison with others. Jesus told Peter not to be concerned with what John's lot in life would be from the Lord. Paul reminded the Corinthians of the folly of comparisons in II Cor. 10:12. John 21:20-22 Then Peter, turning about, seeth the disciple whom Jesus loved following; which also leaned on his breast at supper, and said, Lord, which is he that betrayeth thee? Peter seeing him saith to Jesus, Lord, and what shall this man do? Jesus saith unto him, If I will that he tarry till I come, what is that to thee? follow thou me. |
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M2
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« Reply #327 on: July 23, 2003, 09:15:47 am » |
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My unbelieving brother checked out geftakysassembly and rickross and emailed me this perspective:
quote--
It was the culture of papacy and a poor interpretation of scripture that facilitated David.
--end-quote
Interesting!!
Marcia
PS just to clarify - this is a blood brother, not in fellowship, but has eyes to see.
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« Last Edit: July 23, 2003, 10:23:13 pm by MM »
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vernecarty
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« Reply #328 on: July 23, 2003, 08:37:10 pm » |
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My unbelieving brother checked out geftakysassembly and rickross and emailed me this perspective:
quote--
It was the culture of papacy and a poor interpretation of scripture that facilitated David.
--end-quote
Interesting!!
Marcia
I agree with your brother and go one step further. There were many people involved in the assemblies who absolutely knew what they were seeing and hearing was unscriptural and ungodly. They knew it. The reason for their inaction was a paralysing cowardice!This is understandable if one was unwilling to pay the price for standing for truth. Look at the stupidity of the brother who thinks he is somehow more holy for shunning you for your rejection of a devil like George Geftakys. Go figure... Verne |
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« Last Edit: July 23, 2003, 08:38:00 pm by vernecarty »
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Tom Robinson
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« Reply #329 on: July 23, 2003, 08:43:01 pm » |
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Stephen's point about rewards being an individual thing is a thought worth following. If we will be judged for deeds done "in the body" it is obvious God gave us different bodies and so may expect different things from each of us. So comparison to each other is dangerous. Now that I'm in a healthy, large, evangelical gather we (the church) are still wrestling with the concept of rewards. The NT is clear about salvation by grace through faith alone, but is also replete with the notion that something significant ought to be done with that reality. I just personally have not found it yet. After so long in the assembly I don't trust my own thinking.
p.s. C.S.Lewis has a great little essay called something like New Men not Nice People. The jist of it is a person from a loving family who gets saved might be an awfully nice person, but they've had an awfully nice life. Whereas a person from an abusive background who became an alcholic and then gets saved, but can't bring himself to trust people enough to talk to them let alone help them may have actually made deeper strides into grace than the other guy just by forcing himself to go to church. The problems with the assembly where the same thing was expected from every person become apparent.
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