- Is Christianity w/o the idea of sacrifice possible ?

: dhalitsky September 07, 2004, 06:58:07 AM

In some of the concluding posts on the Matt 25:40 and "honeybee" threads,
Marcia, TomM, and StephenM all were kind enough to suggest that no one is gonna get anywhere by trying to construct a foundation for his or belief in ChristJesus if this idea doesn't include the fundamental central notion of His sacrifice for human sin.

I would like to continue to discuss this question on this thread, but if anyone thinks it is outside the legitimate domain of the AB. please post to say "no, don't go there."

If there are are no "don't go there" posts after a few days, I will pick up the thread then.

Thank you again for the privilege of being here with y'all.

Note to Marcia - did you mean you were gonna stop chattin with me entirely, or just stop chattin about what will be the outcome of the paths in my journey that you think are headed in the wrong direction ?

Dave

Hi Dave H, :)

Re. chatting, I was referring to this:

: dhalitsky September 03, 2004, 12:04:54 AM

...
So I'm vacillating between these two positions - deep-seated agnosticism and a way of internalizing ChristJesus which "works for me."

I strongly doubt that the outcome of my present spiritual crisis will be an internalization of ChristJesus via any traditional means or in any traditional sense. The refusal to follow any herd ON PRINCIPLE was implanted in me too early too deep by my father, as I have mentioned earlier.

So if you and summer007 and Marcia and Claude and MarkC are taking the time to chat because you are hoping for a different outcome, I wanna make sure I am not "leading you on".

In my opinion, our conversations fit within the purposes of this AB because we talk about issues that have to occur to any thinking person who has left "belief" behind, as some members of the AB have. And in the course of this talk, y'all are able to formulate responses which may be helpful to other members of the AB in their own attempts to reconnect to ChristJesus in a way that y'all would find appropriate. IOW, by answering my questions, y'all may be helping other folks answer theirs, or even simply reaffirm theirs

But again, if y'all feel that the discussion is out of place because the outcome in my case is gonna wind-up so negative from your point of view, I will not be insulted nor hurt if someone suggests it's time for me to pack my bags.
...
Best regards and thank you very much again for your patience.
David

WYSIWYG !! ;)

And I agree with Mark C, as usual.

God bless,
Marcia

Dave, I've been wanting to answer this post for a while. I go back to the passage "So likewise you, when you have done all those things which you are commanded, say,'We are unprofitable servants. We have done what was our duty to do.' " luke 17:9 and Christ saying "Go learn what this means: 'I desire mercy and not sacrifice.' For I did not come to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance." from matthew 9:13. As Christians we are called to offer our bodies as "Living Sacrifices" and our praise is an offering of Sacrifice. But compared to what Christ has done for us its all so feeble, and hard to say its really a sacrifice. I've certainly made choices as a Christian in view of Eternity that cost me on many levels, but like I say these are paultry compared to having all my debts stamped out "PAID-IN-FULL" with his Blood mind you!!! Also the Father loves us so much he wants us to walk on paved streets of Gold...Have you ever loved someone so much that marble floors were not good enough or tile or slate, etc...So for Christians to get the word out to others at some sort of cost, or maybe it will cost them all in sacrifice... In Mercy...Christ said Go Learn what this means...He's after the Sinner...to save them...The Rightous are so high flutin they Limit Gods Mercy insulting the power of his grace saying he could Save them ..but not some poor wasted sinner maybe dying of Aids...Again if I give all my worldly possessions to feed the poor and have not Love..Gods Love in me It profits me nothing...Its just a selfish "sacrifice"...Summer.

I would like to thank Mark C, summer007, and Marcia for their kind replies.

I was waiting a while to post to this thread, not knowing quite how to put what I wanted to say.

Then today, I happened to be catching up with my reading of last Sunday's paper (The Tennessean here in Nashville) when I found a review by a fellow named Ray Waddle of a new book called The Gospel of St. Thomas. I am sure that many of you have heard of this book, which is considered by some to by a Gnostic text (it was found in Egypt after WW II.) I am also pretty sure that most posters here would dismiss the book as the devil's work.

I could not find a web-copy of Waddle's review anywhere, so have emailed him to see if he would send me a URL or a copy of the book. I would really like to post the whole review to this thread.

But here's a scrap of it:

"Here finally, it seens, is an unregulated Jesus - uncensored, unfiltered, and untarnished by centuries of official gatekeepers. As recorded in "The Gospel of St. Thomas", we get a counter-cultural Jesus who performs no miracles and dies for no one's sins, but who offers salvation through secret wisdom. Thomas' gospel says"

"Lift up the stone, and you will find me there. Split the piece of wood and I am there."

Also, it says:

"
His followers said to him, 'When will the kingdon come?'
'It will come not by watching for it. It will not be said,
Look here it is, or look there it is. Rather, the father's
kingdon is spread out upon the earth, and people do
not see it
"

So as John Lennon's song goes:

"You may say that I'm a dreamer,
But I'm not the only one."

(Don't mean to be egotistical here; it's just that many of the themes in this "Gnostic" questionable gospel seem to match some tentative conclusions which I have recently reached.

So - if anyone knows this so-called Gospel and has opinions on it, I believe a discussion of it would be a good way to continue this thread.

Also, of course, there is the question of why one should believe this so-called Gospel as being representative in any way of the teachings of the Son of God.

Best regards. as always
Dave

: dhalitsky September 21, 2004, 05:58:18 PM

Hi Dave,

I feel like Captain Kirk and his crew, venturing out into unfamiliar territory, but here goes.

Is this the same Thomas that is quoted in John 20:28 as saying to the Lord Jesus, "My Lord and my God!"??

The stories I have heard (and not researched) of Thomas is that he went to India to preach the gospel, and that he died and was buried there.

These are just some thoughts on the matter. I trust that others will have a more educated response.

: Marcia December 13, 2003, 11:58:34 PM

During the famous Galileo episode with the four cardinals of the Established Roman Catholic Church the following occurred. The cardinals believed in the mistaken world view generally and dogmatically held by the Establishment of those times. Their mistaken view was not based on false facts so much as on false interpretation of the facts. Galileo's instruments showed the facts in such a new light that Galileo invited the cardinals just to take a look at the four moons of Jupiter through his telescope and convince themselves.

If those cardinals had taken that peep at the four moons of Jupiter they would have had to modify all their beliefs about the nature of reality and the universe. So they took the obvious way out of the dilemma. They refused firmly to soil themselves and their eyes by looking through the infernal telescope. They remained blind to the new truth, simply because they refused to see and to recognise new evidence.

---- A.E. Wilder Smith - God: To be or not to be? - Epilogue pg 111

Marcia

Marcia - here (below) are two different mini-reviews dealing with the subject-matter of the book The Brook Kerith by George Moore. I was not sure for a few hours whether I should post this material, since some at the AB might find it too "in your face". But I decided I SHOULD because the book has a magnificent fictional confrontation between Paul and Jesus, a confrontation which is very relevan to the discussion we are involved in.

Note that the author of the second review is I.A. Richards.

Best regards as always
David

Mini-review I:

George Moore's stunningly ambitious tale of what might have happened had Christ survived the wounds of his crucifixion and subsequently attempted to lead a solitary, ordinary life. The central figure in Moore's tome is Joseph of Arimethea, the wealthy aristocrat who enlists in the discipleship of Christ and is accessible to the ear of Pontius Pilate. It is Arimethea who uses his influence to have Christ removed from the cross and who then takes it upon himself to steal him away to his estate when he discovers that Jesus is still alive.

Many readers of a strong faith may find much of this novel offensive. There are two Christs portrayed here; and neither fit the traditional bill. The first is a contemptuous revolutionary, bent on the destruction of social order to make way for a new kingdom of justice. The second is a reposeful, passive figure who retreats to the solitude of nature and comes to dismisses his former self as an impetuous, caustic purveyor of wrath.

I found Moore's portrayal of the duality of Jesus to be a refreshingly original portrait of the times and circumstances of Christ, as well as a daring hypothesis of the origin of myth. The climactic confrontation between Paul, the vanguard of the new Christ, and Jesus, the shepherd, is a turn of creative genius, and does more to confront the notions of traditional Christianity than any scholarly tome before or since.

Mini-review II:

Volume 15, Number 10 � December 3, 1970 Review Jesus' Other Life
By I. A. Richards The Brook Kerith, A Syrian Story by George Moore Liveright, 391

The prime technical problem was to present Jesus through an eye which the reader could accept as adequately prepared, through a personality with which we could sympathize deeply enough to permit him to be our representative through whom we might provisionally perceive and respond, be captured, be bewildered, be despair-struck, agonized, overcome�ourselves. And yet the observer had to be a mind rich, wayward, and independent enough to protect our detachment fully.

This medium is Joseph of Arimathea, the member of the Sanhedrin who, according to the Gospels, gave the body of Jesus burial. We first meet him falling asleep on his grandmother's knee while she is telling him of the prophet Samuel. Joseph's grandmother, his father Dan, his teacher Azariah, Galilee, Jerusalem, the gorges through to Jericho, the Essene community, Joseph's stay there, its Head, Hazael, its philosopher, Matthias, the prophets in the deserts about Jordan, Joseph's tradings, journeyings, self-searchings, all his growth through the years before his first true encounter with Jesus�all this in a thousand ways prepares us to feel with Joseph when, as a dutiful son, he cannot become a disciple. At the same time, the incongruities of the disputing apostles exasperate his heartbroken estrangement from the Jesus he watches distantly through the entry into Jerusalem and meets again only in the night when, having begged Jesus's body from Pilate and brought it from the cross to his own new tomb, he detects that the victim is still alive.

When Jesus has sufficiently recovered physically, Joseph accompanies him back to the Essene cenoby where, until his baptism by John, he had served as their shepherd. He leaves him there promising to return, but is killed by zealots in Jerusalem. And with that the second great technical problem arises: the transition as seekers from Joseph to Jesus. It is handled by the hill journey Jesus makes in search of the ram needed to restore the brethren's degenerate flock: an absorbing narrative this, leading into the long years of shepherding, Jesus's memories of old Joshbekasher "who had taught him all he knew of sheep," and in the end the handing over of the flock to young Jacob�who, too, has had a long atonement to make for a fault.

All these years the brethren in the cenoby have known little or nothing of what happened between the baptism by John and Jesus's return. And it is the evening of his handing over that Jesus is moved to tell Hazael, their aged Head, of the unparalleled sin he committed in the near two years of his life unknown to them. But before he can do so a wanderer is seen far off on the opposite side of the gorge making his hazardous way by the cliff path toward them. The brethren fear that he may be a robber and are loth to open the gate. It is Paul fleeing from his pursuers and it is Jesus who admits him, feeds him with ewe's milk, and bathes his feet.

Next day, while Jesus is away arranging a search for Timothy, who has somehow parted from Paul on their journey toward Caesarea, Paul tells the Essenes the story of his life, of his vision on the road to Damascus and of his ordeals and triumphs in preaching Christ crucified and the resurrection. (An astonishing replaying, this, of the Acts.) The Essenes tell him in return what little they know of Jesus of Nazareth�by which Paul is more deeply disturbed than he knows. When Jesus comes in with news of Timothy, Saddoc, one of the brethren, relays some of Paul's story to him while Paul gazes in bewilderment. "A great persecutor of Christians. Of Christians? Jesus repeated. And who are they?� Christ is a Greek word, Manahem said, for it seemed to him Saddoc was speaking too much�."

When Paul mentions that his Lord Jesus Christ was betrayed in a garden, "at the words, who was betrayed in a garden, a light seemed to break on Jesus' face" and he asks permission to tell the brethren what had happened in those two unknown years. It so interests them that when Paul suddenly cries, "A madman! A madman! Or possessed of an evil spirit!" and rushes out "nobody rose to detain him; some of the Essenes raised their heads and, a moment after, the interruption was, forgotten." Jesus continues his account. When it is ended, Manahem relates Paul's story in full. Jesus is "overtaken by a great pity for Paul."

Jesus leaves to tell the truth in Jerusalem but on the way he finds Paul lying under a rock with foam on his lips and just coming out of a great swoon. Jesus revives him and guides him through one of the strangest journeys ever told all the long way to Caesarea. When Paul arrives there and meets Timothy again he is about to tell him of the "madman with a strange light in his eyes�but was stopped by some power within himself."

Hi Dave H,

I've heard some of those 'theories' before so your presenting it to me does not shock me.
On the flip side, consider that the tomb was sealed by a Roman official after the dead body of Jesus was placed in it. Proof of death was that no one got off the cross unless he was dead; also when they pierced His side blood and water came out. The resurrected Jesus appeared to many witnesses on the third day. Not enough time to be nursed back to health after been beaten with 29 lashes and then crucified on the cross.

Josh McDowell was a skeptic before he became a believer. You might be interested in some of his books. More Than a Carpenter is quite small and you should be able to breeze through it. It might even be available at your local library.

Lord bless,
Marcia

http://www.bookfinder.us/review4/0842345523.html (http://www.bookfinder.us/review4/0842345523.html)
- Book Review
More than a Carpenter by Josh D. McDowell (http://www.josh.org/) (http://www.josh.org/))

Amazon.com
Since its release, More Than a Carpenter has been challenging readers to ask the question, "Who is Jesus?" Author and renowned speaker Josh McDowell acknowledges that while the topic of God is widely accepted, the name of Jesus often causes irritation. "Why don't the names of Buddha, Mohammed, Confucius offend people? The reason is that these others didn't claim to be God, but Jesus did." By addressing questions about scientific and historical evidence, the validity of the Bible, and proofs of the resurrection, McDowell helps the reader come to an informed and intelligent decision about whether Jesus was a liar, a lunatic, or the Lord. This short, 128-page gem does not employ fancy theological words, forsaking the layman, but reads more like an intimate research document laying out the facts with veracious accuracy, from reliable sources ranging from secular scientists to conservative seminarians. A skeptic himself for many years, McDowell always believed that Christians were "out of their minds" but now insists that "never has an individual been called upon to commit intellectual suicide in trusting Christ as Savior and Lord." McDowell adeptly articulates fundamental answers to poignant questions that cause the skeptic to consider whether Jesus was a liar causing countless martyrs to die in his wake, a lunatic deserving death, or actually the Lord of the universe. --Jill Heatherly

Ingram
In More Than a Carpenter Josh McDowell focuses upon the person who changed his life--Jesus Christ. It's a hard-hitting book for people who are skeptical about Jesus deity, his resurrection, and his claims on their lives.

Book Description
Josh McDowell's timeless examination of the true nature of Christ and his impact on our lives is one of the best-selling Christian books ever (more than eight million copies in print worldwide!). Written by a former skeptic of Christianity, it is a hard-hitting book for those who doubt Jesus' deity and his purpose. Spanish available

Other reviews:
http://www.epinions.com/book-review-541C-627D58B-3A2AD660-prod1 (http://www.epinions.com/book-review-541C-627D58B-3A2AD660-prod1)

Al -

If I have learned one thing in life, it is that people who are deeply deeply unsure of their OWN beliefs are the first to mock the beliefs of others. Compare your responses to my posts to the responses from MarkC, TomM, and Marcia to see the difference between "mocking" and "countering and argument".

A cheap wisecrack which plays off an accidental similarity in last name does not counter any argument, it merely "mocks".

What I wish for you in your life is a(nother) deep spiritual crisis in which you are brought face-to-face with the possibility that your entire belief-system may be a mirage. This is the point of the confrontation between the fictional Paul and the fictional Jesus in The Brook Kerith - and it is one worth thinking about, brother -
cause it could happen to you tomorrow.

But perhaps you DO know this better than anyone else; perhaps you DO know what weak a foundation you have built your belief system upon, and THAT is the reason why your spiritual life appears to consist either of your continious self-congratulation at being saved, OR attacks on folks who do not think so highly of themselves as to deem themselves worthry of such continous self-congratulation.

Al, if you can stop congratulating yourself long enough to help me out here, could you explain to me the difference between praying out loud at street-corners (like the Pharisees of old) and the continuous self-congratulation you (and all your modern Pharisee friends) engage in?

Dave

Dave---

The one problem with posting on the BB, or reading another's post--and believe me, I have fallen prey to this, is to misunderstand the tone in which something has been said. Unfortuantely, we do not have the ability to hear the inflection of the voice, or the expression on the face of the person speaking. A piece of wit can be confused with seriousness, or sarcasm as an "attack", etc.

I don't need to defend Al--he can defend himself. But I say this in all sincerity that Al is a very dear person. He sincerely cares for the people on the BB--I can attest to this with all of my heart. In private E-mails and posts, all he seeks to do is encourage and uplift others. He is trying to do the work of a shepherd, who is always on guard to protect the flock.

Yes--we as Christians do see ourselves as the "People of God", because the Bible says we are. I do not say proudly that I am a child of God, I say it gratefully. As Christians we have no reason to boast--we are Christians solely by Grace alone. I do not believe that Al is boasting that he is a Christian at all, nor do I believe he is attacking you for what you believe.

His concern(and correct me if I'm wrong Al) is that there are those who come along under the pretense they have an innocent question to pose, yet really have an agenda to throw doubt on what we believe. New Christians can be stumbled by that, and the Bible warns to be on the lookout for those who would seek to do so.

Dave, you are quite correct that there are pompous and hateful people out there who call themselves Christians. But there are many, many truly sincere and caring Christians also. As an example, it would be wrong to say that "all BMW's suck" just because you had a bad experience with a pompous and rude BMW salesman.

Al is a caring and sincere Christian who is concerned about others on the BB. Not being able to hear the tone of his voice, or his facial expressions makes it far more difficult to "hear" what he is truly trying to say. But I'll let him explain himself--i can't presume to speak for him. I am just conveying what I know about Al, and the big heart he has.

Thanks,Joe

P.S. I am in no way suggesting that I feel you should not state your ideas or opinions Dave. I am simply explaining where I think Al may be coming from in his post. If you are sincerely here for discussion that's great. There is always room for opposing viewpoints.

Dave,

I would like to weigh in here with a few comments. You wrote:

"What I wish for you in your life is a(nother) deep spiritual crisis in which you are brought face-to-face with the possibility that your entire belief-system may be a mirage. This is the point of the confrontation between the fictional Paul and the fictional Jesus in The Brook Kerith - and it is one worth thinking about, brother -
cause it could happen to you tomorrow.

But perhaps you DO know this better than anyone else; perhaps you DO know what weak a foundation you have built your belief system upon, and THAT is the reason why your spiritual life appears to consist either of your continious self-congratulation at being saved, OR attacks on folks who do not think so highly of themselves as to deem themselves worthry of such continous self-congratulation."

Regarding "the possibility that your entire belief system may be a mirage".

I settled that issue long ago. During my early years as a Christian I met and talked to many folks who rejected my faith for various reasons.

I remember thinking, "I'd better take a look at what these people have to say." I began to investigate the ideas of the more educated, articulate class of atheists.

I read, for example, (I'm talking the 60's here), "Why I am not a Christian" by Bertrand Russel. "The True Believer" by Eric Hoffer, and others.

What I discovered was that they had nothing to say I hadn't already heard while in the USAF. They just used a larger vocabulary. But the arguments were the same. Examples would be:
1. The existence of evil.
2. Belief based on wish fulfillment.
3. The Catholic church suppressed other viewpoints.
4. All truth is "relative".

And so on and on. I had to dig some for answers, but they're out there. In fact, most of these can be answered in seconds since they are based on logical fallacies, or even less.

I have been a Christian for over 40 years and I have never encountered any worldview that has the internal coherence, explanatory power, historical foundation, or life transforming power of our "mirage".

BTW, in one of your earliest posts you alluded to the "recycling" universe. That idea has been dead since 1965 when Penzias and Wilson detected the universal cosmic background radiation. No joy there.

Now, Dave, do YOU have a coherent, consistent worldview that you can defend? So far you have only thrown out ideas that no one could defend, like...."suppose Jesus comes again and again."

You need to do your homework.

Thomas Maddux

Board Readers,

I will intersperse my comments in boldface within the text of the quote below. Please do not read this as a defense of my actions-- it is not. I offer it only by way of explanation in answer to the quote itself:

: dhalitsky September 23, 2004, 01:07:17 PM

If I have learned one thing in life, it is that people who are deeply deeply unsure of their OWN beliefs are the first to mock the beliefs of others. Compare your responses to my posts to the responses from MarkC, TomM, and Marcia to see the difference between "mocking" and "countering and argument".

A cheap wisecrack which plays off an accidental similarity in last name does not counter any argument, it merely "mocks".

My post:

Hmmmm, I wonder if George Moore was a forebear of Michael Moore? It might explain the latter's facility at fictionalizing history...

...certainly fits the description of "wisecrack." "Cheap" will have to be a matter of personal opinion. In my parlance, in was genuine. It mocks, yes-- the "works" of two men whose intellectual product is manifestly the efforts of the wilfully rebellious against God to justify themselves before men, thus dragging their fellows down with them into damnation.

But never at any time was that post intended to counter any argument. In my opinion, no argument had been presented that required countering.[/b]

What I wish for you in your life is a(nother) deep spiritual crisis in which you are brought face-to-face with the possibility that your entire belief-system may be a mirage. This is the point of the confrontation between the fictional Paul and the fictional Jesus in The Brook Kerith - and it is one worth thinking about, brother -
cause it could happen to you tomorrow.

What I wish for every one of you, David included, is that you will find grace sufficient to receive every blessing God has in store for you.

But perhaps you DO know this better than anyone else; perhaps you DO know what weak a foundation you have built your belief system upon, and THAT is the reason why your spiritual life appears to consist either of your continious self-congratulation at being saved, OR attacks on folks who do not think so highly of themselves as to deem themselves worthry of such continous self-congratulation.

This is all-important to the child of God: Never be moved by how your spiritual life appears to scoffers. Concern yourself only with how you appear to God, who looks upon your heart and not your outward appearance.

I am (and you are) incapable of building a sound "belief system" upon any foundation. There is only one holy faith, and that is built upon the Lord Jesus Christ, not by man, but by God. That faith and that foundation cannot be moved.

Let all the fictional characters have their fictional encounters with their fictional results, but be assured of this one thing: Almighty God our Father in Heaven, His Son our Lord Jesus Christ, and His Holy Spirit our Comforter are/is no fiction. Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved. Acts4:12

Al, if you can stop congratulating yourself long enough to help me out here, could you explain to me the difference between praying out loud at street-corners (like the Pharisees of old) and the continuous self-congratulation you (and all your modern Pharisee friends) engage in?

Readers, please tell me: Do you think this is an honest question from someone genuinely seeking to be "helped out?" How would you answer this?

I will say this: I have nothing in which to boast except the grace, mercy and love of God, who sought out a wretched sinner who was self-deceived and hopelessly lost, and gave to me that which I could never have earned in all eternity. But God forbid that I should glory, save in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom the world is crucified unto me, and I unto the world. Galatians6:14.

How could one congratulate oneself for being saved? Is it thinking highly of myself to confess to being wholly unworthy to even look upon or be in the presence of One who has graciously, at immense personal cost, and with unspeakably painful sacrifice invited me into His house, laid out a feast before me, and made me a son and an heir to Himself? Of such a God we may surely boast, for He is great above all others. But of His selection of me? I am humbled beyond humility. There was nothing good to be found in me, and all that ever may come of my redemption will be a testimony and a tribute to the God of the impossibly hopeless, who binds up the wounded, gives strength to the weak and fainting, and worth to the worthless. No words can describe my indebtedness to Him. Self-congratulation? For what?

al

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General Discussion => Any and All Topics => : dhalitsky September 07, 2004, 06:58:07 AM