AssemblyBoard

Having escaped the box, the trap of the GG mind, I'm now re-examining what I took for truth, how I took what I took for truth.

Circulating in my blood stream this morning is this, a paraphrase of course b/c I still haven't cracked my bible open.  And I'm glad btw, that I haven't, yet. Incidently, I also get sick to my stomach when I get "Oh, you'll come around, and when you get to that place... " like when I'm healed, I'll look and talk like you guys.

Why don't I want to be like many of you imply I should?  It is still the box, full of GG's lingo and implications and views life through a straw.  There's a lot more to see.

the circulation:
We don't know what we shall be but we know that one day we shall be like him for we shall see him as he is.

Selah for a long time, please.  Think about it.

Delila

Delila,

If you tell me who it is that is telling you "you'll come around, etc."  I'll personally harrass and intimidate them. ;)

How dare they!  What arrogance!

I think you're doing just fine, and God forbid you become like some of us.  If were all so great, we wouldn't be here, and we certainly wouldn't have been in the Assembly.  

Good for you!

Brent

     When we come around, we'll be utterly humiliated that we ever suggested such a thing to someone...

 
     ...reminds me of when Cathy & I were young parents:  I had been brought up in a "waste not, want not" atmosphere, so if anyone didn't finish off what they had been served at table, I usually took over for them.  It was apparent that our toddler daughter was done drinking her milk, so I chugged the remaining half-glassful.  In so doing, I treated myself to a mouthful of soggy bread that had been lurking beneath the surface of the milk.
     Lord deliver me from viewing life through a straw!!!

   
     The Word of God had no chapter & verse references for millenia, and doesn't depend upon them any more today than then.  God writes His Word upon our hearts and convinces us of His intentions for us by His holy Spirit.  The Bible as we know it is a marvelous convenience, but should we be denied ever seeing it again (as many in other lands have been), what we already know of it and what faithful others speak to us of it will suffice.  Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the Word of God...

Blessings,
al

Delila:

I rarely "crack open" my bible these days.  I too, have had a hard time going back to reading the bible.  There are many good intentioned individuals (non-assembly folk) who have tried to encourage me to "crack it open", but I have sooooo much GG/assembly stuff running around in my brain, that I just can't.  

I don't have a "morning time", I don't have a daily "prayer time", but I am closer to God and my family than I ever was.  I know that at some point I will again "crack it open", but it will be in my time, not some person telling me that in order to be spiritual I must read the bible.

I hope you feel accepted here on the BB with wherever you are.  Noone here is going to tell you there is something you have to "do".  Everyone has a process they have to go through............but it is your process, noone else's. ;)

"The Lord Spoke to me in this chapter..." is utterly phoney, phoey to me right now.  I know that then, when I 'shared' all those chapter summaries, I was sharing what I though I should be getting out of the chapter, whatever was in line with what I was being taught, nothing that ever made me question assembly doctrine or practice.  Hence, I was a liar.

And now, I have these "Aha" moments, as Oprah puts it.  When my children are playing, or I wake up from a dream, or I realize that the sign above the largest concentration camp in the world was very much the slogan of the gg dynasty, paraphrased: the work makes us free, or the work is our salvation.

And when we said, "Walk in the light" we meant in every sense of the word, that we were looking to the light that we claimed shone out of G's backside, the light by which we climed the assembly ladder, on the heads and hearts of others, for a closer look, and to kiss up.  

Yes, thanks all.

Every once in a while I need to be reminded that no one's telling me to fit the mould or the mold or whatever - that I can be comfortable in my own skin, in my own mind, making the connections that I can honestly live by, without pretention.  That's what I appreciate about this website most.  We do have freedoms undreamed of in George's House.

Love You,

Delila

     I sometimes wonder, Delila, whether you realize what a breath of fresh air your posts bring to this BB? :D

     BTW, folks, I have a fairly recent photo of Delila, and she is really much more feminine than the photo that accompanies her posts! ;D

 ;)al

Dad!

Quit it.

Good Sunday Morning to All  :) !

  In reading what Delila and Kimberley have written here we can see exactly the kind of evil that the Assembly worked in the lives of innocent believers in Christ.
   When we follow a pseudo Christian message and discover that it is false we lose the child like quality of simple trust and can become cynics.
   Oh, we may still deep down believe the Gospel, but all we hear when we read the Bible, or attend church, is the GG/Assembly spin.  Actually, we feel great anxiety and pain before we even hear a word! :'(
   What God intended for our blessing, to tell us how much He loves us and to build us up, has been stolen from us! >:(
This should make us as angry as Jesus was when He cleansed the Temple with whips!!  The Jewish leaders took God's House and turned it into something it was not supposed to be, and thus turned it into a means of self enrichment (Delila's point that the Assembly was a place to climb the social ladder on the backs of God's people).
   I have mentioned some things that I have found helpful to me in facing these kinds of emotional barriers and most assuredly the application of religious disciplines in one's life is not the answer ( AM times, regular devotional reading,etc.).  Trying ways to think about God, and one's life in Christ, that are different from the ways we did things in the Assembly might provide a way around what always triggers painful memories.
  Delila mentioned her children and thinking about how much she loves them.  She also mentioned that God must look at us with at least as much love.  Kimberley mentioned learning to connect with her family again in graceful ways and this is a lesson to us also of how God wants to relate to us.
   We are told by Paul that peace with God comes from placing all of our soul's baggage in His care, for He cares for us.  We are also told that we can think on "whatever is good, lovely, etc." and that is how we need to view God now--- a good friend who is the opposite of the Assembly twisted image.  None of these things are about "spiritual disciplines" but still form in our souls new ways of thinking that replace the old view of God and His Temple.  More than anything else I think this will enable us to take back what was twisted and stolen and make it ours again.
   Anger had it's place in Jesus' life and with us it can stir us to spit in GG's eye, so to speak, and take back God's Temple in our life as a house of prayer and of peace!  When we see that God truly does care, and is a wonderful person and friend, a real healing work of grace fills our souls'.
                           God Bless,  Mark C.

Mark's post today re: how we were affected by what we were taught in the assembly (and particularly by the leadership) is why I believe our anger is completely justified with these men and women who so greatly influenced (for the bad) our lives.

I have heard the leadership in the locale I came from are "hurt" and that my "anger" is what prevents them from contacting and "making right" their involvement in my life and my family's life.

Poppycock!  I am righteously angry (as Christ was at those who defiled his father's temple.)  My anger is not sin and my calling these ones publicly to account is not sin.  My families humiliation and abuse was done publicly and I am calling out for a public apology.  I don't buy off on the excuse that they are "hurt" and need to heal before they come forth and apologize and make things right.  It is just that......an excuse.  I have waited for over a year to hear from these people...............and yet nothing!

I am dealing with my family's fragile psyches (each child is suffering in numerous ways) and the road to recovery will be a long one.  These children need to be apologized to (particularly my oldest daughter who suffered the most abuse).  I lay squarely at the leadership's (and particularly one LB's wife) the state of my children's spiritual lives.  These people represented Christ to my children.  Their heavy handed, guilt ridden, controlling, manipulative tactics have tainted my children's view of Christ and Christianity.  My oldest daughter has nightmares nightly which makes it difficult to sleep (she is soooooo aftraid to go to sleep) and she is needing counseling to reprogram her thinking (from having been brainwashed her whole life).  

Where are you leadership in making things right with those whom you have so greatly affected by your teaching and leading?

Sure it will be tough for them, they have been groomed to be Junior Georges and Mini Bettys

     When I came to this board just over a year ago, I was outspoken against the anger I witnessed here.  I am posting this to apologize for my early opinion.
     What I failed to recognize then was that
[1] my departure from assembly life was very different from those of most posters here;
[2] I had had over twenty years to adjust to non-assembly living;
[3] the assembly system had grown incredibly more oppressive than when I was a part of it;
[4] I had done precious little adjusting since leaving and my spiritual life was a shambles.
     My year here has meant a lot of enlightening and changes for me, for the better.  I don't have anger issues today, but I certainly respect the anger of others.  My family and I still suffer because of the trauma of our assembly years, and I fault no one whose ire is raised because of such treatment.  Please forgive me that I ever did.
     I have mended fences with those who I am aware of having offended, but if anyone is still offended by my former (or present) expressions, I would be grateful for the opportunity to apologize personally...

In Christ's love,
al Hartman

Hey Al!
See you in the kingdom buddy!  :)
Verne

Kimberly,

You took the words right out of my mouth.  I keep thinking that I should be past the "I can't read the Bible" stage by now, so I'm glad to see that I'm not the only one that hasn't gotten back into a rigorous spiritual discipline.  I have, however, just started to watch the preaching from a local Calvary Chapel on the local public access channel.  The preacher's mannerisms are so different from George's that it doesn't trigger disgust.  In fact, this preacher doesn't have any mannerisms to speak of.  He's so plain that he doesn't come across as pretentious.  Also, he only preaches for about 40 minutes or so.  I can't stand watching preachers that seem polished, etc.

Lately I've been speaking with my mom often, and we've both been enriched by our conversations.  My visits with the rest of my family are much more enjoyable as well.

Recovering at my own (and God's) pace,
Jack

I recently started attending a new small-group at my church.  We are going through a study of Christian essentials.  I'm really looking forward to this.  It isn't extremely intense, and is only every-other-week.

Dave

Jack:

When we were still in LA, we had found a church right away that was great.  Great preaching (actually they were preaching out of Acts at the time and really hit on some cult stuff that revealed what we had just come out of - refreshing stuff.)  We also were in a bible study there, that was basically fundamentals of the faith and grounded us in what our faith is (far from the assembly dogma).  The bible study was alot of questions and answers (rather than preaching) which enabled us to resolve many questions that were stirring due to our leaving.

All of that being said........I see how lucky we were for God to have led us to this church.  I didn't mind the preaching, opening my bible to study during bible study.........but now we've moved.  Haven't found a church like that yet......I'm praying we will find one soon.  Without that kind of vehicle to help me, I can't go there myself.  There are different seasons in life.......I happen to be in Winter.  But I am eagerly awaiting Spring!  I am sure it will come, it always does. ;)

Verne,

I'm not sure if you understand.  Reading the word or hearing it being read - those verses all trigger flashbacks to the assembly.  While in the assembly (27 years for me) I read the Bible and/or heard the word being preached, and then applied it to my life in the context of what George and the leadership asserted that those verses meant.  If you applied it differently, then you were "set straight" about what the Bible was really saying.  

So now, reading the Bible (or hearing it being read) has a numbing effect on me personally.  And in the same way, when different ones on this BB are so dogmatic (and that means you, too, Verne) about what they consider to be obvious judgements or discernments, I become totally tuned out.  Things just weren't what we believed them to be in the assembly, which now causes me to question just about everything.  Give us some time - the Lord cares and is not mocking us.

Hi

Here is a possible answer to recovering the joy of reading the bible. I know for me I hear George's take on the bible when I try to delve into it myself. But talking to others who never knew George I find it refreshing to hear what they have to say about familiar passages that "I knew" according to George could only mean this and they have another way of seeing it and it helps me get out of the box.

I have started going to a course called Alpha. It is just what the doctor ordered. I have really enjoyed the course because it confirms or challenges the teachings I have heard for so long but in an independent setting with no pressure to agree with everyone. We are all told that we should express our opinions for discussion and NO ONE CAN SHOOT ANYBODY'S OPINION DOWN.

Alpha
 
What is the meaning of life? What happens when we die? What relevance does Jesus have for our lives? How do we deal with guilt?

If you would like to explore questions like these, then Alpha is for you!

What is ALPHA?

A nyone interested in finding out more about the Christian faith.
Adults of all ages are welcome.

L earning and laughter. It is possible to learn about the Christian
faith and have fun at the same time.

P eople meeting together. An opportunity to get to know others
and to make new friends.

H elping one another. The small groups give you a chance to
discuss issues raised during the talks.

A sk anything. Alpha is a place where no question is seen as
too simple or too hostile.


Who is ALPHA for?
 
Alpha is for everyone! It is especially geared to:

People interested in investigating Christianity
Newcomers to the church
New Christians
Christians who want to brush up on the basics
What happens at ALPHA?
There is a series of talks on topics such as:

Who Is Jesus?
Why Did Jesus Die?
Why and How Should I Read the Bible?
Why and How Do I Pray?
What About the Holy Spirit?
How Can I Overcome Evil?
Why and How Should I Tell Others?
Does God Heal Today?
What About the Church?

After each talk there is a small-group time for everyone to discuss any questions or issues they have. This gives an opportunity to get to know each other and to learn together.

http://www.alphausa.org/

http://www.alphacanada.org/

I suggest to the leaders and ex-leaders, not only in the San Fernando Valley and everywhere else, that they had better just face the anger and go to the people they have wronged, with words like this: "When we were leaders in what has now been proven to be a cult, we abused our authority and rode roughshod over God's people.  I know that I did (fill in the blanks) to you personally, and I want to apologize.  If there's anything I did that I haven't mentioned, please let me know.  And if there's anything I can do to make up for my mistreatment of you, please let me know that too."  If the anger of the flock is keeping the false shepherds from making things right, they haven't seen anything yet.  Wait till they face the anger of God.


One group in particular that I have focused on since I've left has been the children of ex-assembly people.  I have called children on the phone and talked to them in person, apologizing for my heavy-handed treatment of them as a doorkeeper and a teacher in the children's ministry.  It is easy to see why so many of them are turned off to the Bible and spiritual things - for the Geftakys groups made God out to be a harsh, cruel taskmaster.

Clarence Thompson

Dear Kimberly,
   First, my condolences about your children.  Watching them suffer must be
hard to tolerate.  I am so thankful that I had both my children after I left the assembly.
I thought about your message all day, scribble down some thoughts and fought tears.
There are so many aspects to that systematic hell we called ‘the assembly’ that I
wonder how long it will take to shed all the sorrow.  BTW (Mark) I think what we
experience runs a lot deeper than cynicism - really, saints (sound of GG clearing his
throat).  Cynics often use their pessimistic attitudes as excuses for not doing their part
to make the world a better place by starting at home.  Neither Mark C nor anyone can
accuse us of that, can they? (BTW: love you Mark.)

   Secondly, I wonder how many of us have seriously considered a law suit?  I’m
serious.  Hear me out.  This guy (who claims to be a Christian) burnt my house down
last fall.  The police are still eating donuts and discussing the situation.  I’ll be happy
to see him held accountable for turning my house into ashes.  But here, Kimberly, you
had much more than a burning house at the hands of these ‘Christians’.  And here,
you are expected to forget.
   I remember being ‘dealt with’ over stupid little things, questioning directions
over household issues that were simply unclear and being punished for not being able
to read minds.  I remember praying in my bedroom under a plaque on the wall that
read “Great peace have they who love they law and nothing shall offend them.” And I
remember praying, Oh Lord, don’t let me be offended.  I love Thy law.  So now I
consider: if God has a law yet, what is it?  Don’t miss a meeting?  The children shall
not venture off the mat or make a sound in the meeting?  If God has a law yet, is it not
simply: love?  And so, at what exactly are these people offended?  Was love shown?
No?  Cruelty in the Name of God instead?  Then, according to God’s law, God should
be offended then!
   What you do to the least of these (again, this comes from my circulation, I was
never good at numbers) you do to God as well.  So what offends these leading
brothers and sisters exactly?  They refuse the humiliation that comes from being
exposed, the same humiliation they heaped on our heads.  Was that the motivating
force behind the crucifixion?  Christ had done nothing wrong, so said Pilate, but he
offended some very important people, just as Kimberly does when she speaks the
truth about how the little ones were trodden by the leaders of the people.
   My voice on this BB is offensive to many, especially to those who sneak on to
read and tattle tale but never post. I’m sorry that they chose to be offended.  I’m sorry
that they choose instead to be loyal to the system that so much offends God.  They
love their positions, the idea of their positions.  Would they love to replace George in
their assemblies as local G&B?  
   Dear Kimberly, I wonder when Jesus prayed and wept, did he weep for these
leaders and their wounded reputations?  I think instead Kimberly, He wept for you
and your children.  I know I do.
   And another thing: you rained on their parade.  That’s what picks them the
most.  In all predictability - the assembly mind - even post assembly - even so.  They
think they’re ‘still faithful’ to the ‘testimony’ (That GG created).  At least ‘they’
didn’t desert the assembly/Lord ( idol as Brent has well pointed out).  They didn’t
leave in humiliation as many of us did, with rumors circulating in the shock waves.
   Again I say it: they’re in love with their own reputations, shocked and
offended by anything that calls their reputations into questions.  So try not to consider
their ridiculous claims too much.  Vanity dies a long, slow death.  And ‘spiritual’
vanity is probably the hardest to kill.  Notice George is still leading who will follow.
Mental illness, I think.  It must be an awfully hard thing to get used to - this not being
the one who is bowed to anymore.  Probably why Hitler killed himself.  They’re so
used to being the ones doling out punishment.  They don’t know what it means to tell
the truth anymore.  They are used to taking that scripture (those sins you forgive are
forgiven, those sins you do not forgive are not forgiven) and twisting it for their own
good.  Their consciences are totally screwed, Kimberly, you won’t get so much as a
“If I’ve offended you...” from them.  That’s why they wait for YOUR repentance: out
of habit.  Act now, supplies are running out...Hey girl, ‘you might as well be walking
on the sun.’
   So what now?  Healing.  You can’t tell a wound how to heal.  If I were there,
I’d hug you.  We’d take our kids out to do something they’d love.  My kids love to
sing and dance and play in the water.  A million episodes of Sponge Bob Square Pants
can’t erase the abuse of the past.  What can?  God knows.  But please, if I may,
consider yourself hugged.

Love,
Delila

Delila,
Why is it that I end up crying at the reading of almost every one of your posts?
Part of it is that your suffering makes my heart break.  Part of it is that I know that there are so many others who suffered as much.  And of course, there's the way you put to words so much of what many of just don't know how to express...or maybe just don't have the guts to express.
Then you go and write this beautiful letter to Kimberly and make me cry at the compassion expressed.
I know you had considered not contributing to the BB at one time.  I hope you've put that thought out of your mind.  I haven't really posted anything much, but reading this board on an almost daily basis has been incredible therapy for me.  It's the contributions of people like you and so many others, that help to heal the rest of us.
Thank you.
Janet

     ...and the contributions of you, Janet, and others who post seldom but genuinely, also help to heal and encourage  the rest of us.  Don't think for a minute that the more frequent and prolific posters have moved beyond the pain you feel.  Some of us may have a lot to say, and some of us may just think we have a lot to say, but none of us has arrived.

     I, for one, am often more deeply touched by the posts of struggling sisters than by those of learned brothers.  I won't name names, because I'd surely leave someone out accidentally & regret it later, but I have been greatly encouraged, sometimes shamed and often instructed by the posts of those who speak neither profoundly nor often, but who from the heart project the love and wisdom of Christ.

     Whoever you may be who reads here, please feel free to post as little and as seldom as makes you comfortable.  But, please, when the urge to post is present, don't withdraw from it.  There are those here who may only respond to what you have to say.  I feel there's a good chance I may be one of them...

Thank you, and God bless,
al

Dear Janet:

There was a Janet once in Ottawa.  I'm trying hard to remember her last name but it's not comming to me.  She left, destroyed b/c she was unable to measure up.  I would love to hear your story.

BTW: thanks for saying what you wrote.  It means a lot.
Love,

Delila

Delila:

Wow!  What a touching response.  I am blown away by your compassion and reaching out to me through this bb.  I have only shared a razor thin glimpse of the devastation in my children's lives that has been as a direct result from our involvement in the assembly.  I have done this to protect my kids.  I actually wish I could relate all that my children are going through in order to reveal the tragedy of being involved in the assembly.  I am actively getting help for my children and my prayer is that they will come out of this stronger and more healthy as a result.

A lawsuit?  Oh yeah, I've thought about it.  My husband and I decided that the emotional toll it would take on our family just simply wasn't worth it.  God has a better way of dealing with people.  ;)

I want to say you haven't offended anyone yet.  The anonymous voyeurs who have been offended don't count.  You are a welcome breath of fresh air.

I absolutely consider myself hugged and back at cha.  :D  As my oldest daughter loves to type, "muah" :-*

Love ya,

Kimberley

Yes, God has his ways of dealing with people.  He's been most kind to me:
-letting me learn from my own mistakes
-giving me the autonomy to choose, even unwisely
-providing all I need
-giving me beautiful children who teach me daily about patience, kindness, truth, love, comfort etc.
-providing professionals to help me sort out the tangled web of deceit taught by the assembly
-giving me this bb as a means of healing
-providing people like you who are so willing to share their pain, validating my own experience, being honest.

the list goes on.

That being said, I don't know how much I trust God to fully deal with others in his own time.  I play my part too, wimp that I am.  The book I sent off to a publisher on Monday is one small way I hope to expose the great wrong that's been done.  Let's see if they sue me.  I hear a guy named Harry Potter sued the author of the Harry Potter series for using his name.  We'll see what the saints in Ottawa do. Maybe I should get a lawyer.

Love ya back!

Delila

 :o
It is difficult to see what is outside of our experience.  What takes a 'real' man or woman is to admit that others have the right to their own feelings about their own experiences, regardless of how those feelings differ from ours.
 ;D
Al,  I tease you repeatedly for being like maples syrup, but alas, I see where you're coming from and your syrup too has hit the spot with me on many occassions.  Took me a while to see you were for real.

 ::)
So I'm thinkin' here Al, I'm thinkin' that's what GRACE is.  Not being quick to write someone else's opinion off as 'bitter' or 'wrong' just b/c it is very different from your own.  Many in Ottawa and some in Calgary and Estevan, I'm sure would love to think of themselves at yet being 'faithful' to the heavenly vision, regardless of the fact that they have not yet separated that 'vision' from the horrors of what George taught.  Of course, they yet claim: "WE were never influenced much by George" or, as I heard from one LB in Estevan, "Tim's ministry really spoke to me..." which of course, bothers me b/c they haven't yet sorted good speaking from the more devastating hooks and dangers of that ministry.  Still, what is my response to them?  I loved Bernie and Dianna.  I strove to be like Nancy - to measure up to her impossible standard.  I respected Armand, regardless of the fact that he didn't respect me and my ability to make choices for myself.  But if I am learning anything about God it is this:
 8)
He sees their hearts.  He knows what they experienced/ experience and how humiliating it must be to have their unfinished business laundered along with our pain here.  I hope God's kindness too leads them to repentance as His kindness has caused me to see that He is good.  

Delila

Delila:

I don't know you, but I was in the SLO assembly, and I want to say I see a great woman of strength in you.

I commend and laud you for being of the same cloth of a Abagail: in the midst of difficult circumstances an inner strength that shines now. I know whatever things that have taken place for all of us, in our moments, the Lord looks upon us like David looks upon Abagail and sees something of great worth. David married Abagail after he judged Abagail's fool of a husband. The reason why David married her is very much like what Christ sees in the church -- or what I would say in us: We are worthy in Him to be his bride. His longing, his concern is for you, me and everyone who calls on his name.

I say to one, and I say to all 2004 will be a year where God will make breakthroughs, and new places for us if we take a hold of Him! God bless you all!!!

Delila,

Do you mean that they might sue you for using their names? ;)
Anyway, if it does come to that, I'll be an eyewitness in your defense.
I want a copy of your book hot off the press.

You are so right about how God works with us.  He did not forget the suffering and injustices you suffered.  You have every right to proclaim the ugly truth and don't be surprised if assembly-sympathizers start labelling you as a gossip, an evil speaker, or even as disgruntled.  Now, if they had truly repented things might have been different.  But I believe (since they won't tell me) that they are hoping that this will all die down and just go away so that they can continue on blissfully in their lifestyle of false holiness.  Someone predicted that the BB would only last till the end of last summer.  Wishful thinking on their part, don't you think??

Much love and God bless,
Marcia

Wishful indeed.  I've noticed we've seen a lot more traffic here over the last month or so.  Someone out there is being set free by the free-flowing information that is not controlled/distorted by assembly leaders. :)

Jack

 ;D
That's the smile.  Everything's fine.  Denial.  Denial.

Paraphrase:
 'Listen sister, you always knew love.  Don't tell me that now that you've left the assembly, you've found it.  That can't be'  Bernie Cossette, Calgary

Nope.  It ain't goin' away, is it?  It's still as true as it always was.  A mirror held up.  Can you see yourself?  Claim your baggage here.  

And you will know the truth.  And the truth will make you free.

Delila

Hey Marcia!

Long time no talk.  Yup.  I think they might be a little cross with me >:(
Donno why. ::)

Anyhoo, I'm going to say this:  

I did phone and try to talk to Nancy a couple times.  She was busy, I think, a little scared of me.  She 'really had to go right now' if you know what I mean.  It is much easier to maintain your own version of things if you just don't discuss the issues with those you've stepped on.

That scripture about people having their consciences seared keeps popping up with me.  And, from Shakespeare "That a man can smile and smile and smile and yet be a villian".  Appearances have to be kept up in order for image and reputation to be maintained and that 'assembly smile' ;D and sweet sweet tone used for reaching out to the 'unsaved' - here in quotes b/c the reacher wrongfully thinks he/she is out of the woods - are excellent acting, really.

And, I give them this: excellent acting, folks.  Many still believe you.  But, how long can you believe yourself?  That seared conscience, like a leaky tea bag has got to be wearing thin.  

As time goes on though Marcia, I'm less angry and more fascinated by the dementia I call the 'assembly mind'.   And yes, I've started reading the bible again.  For what it's worth, I'm camped out in the first chapter of Genisis.  Not planning on turning the page any time soon either.  The spirit of God, moved over the waters of the deep.  Wowzer.  I'm just thinking about that for a few days.

Love ya

Delila

Gordon:

That's a pretty big comparison to make.  Most liken me to the woman caught in adultery, the woman who washed Jesus' feet with her hair, the woman who cut Samson's hair.  I'm not sure I agree with such a big comparison but it was big of you to make it.

From my understanding, SLO was one of the biggest pits of hell in the assembly framework.  Have you posted your story?  I'll have to look for it.  Other people's stories are so instructive to me.  They don't just validate my own, they open my eyes to things I didn't see before.  I'm going to look for the story of Abigail and read it again.  It's been a long time.

Thanks,
Delila

Hey Delila, :)

Saul, before he was Paul, had to fall off his high horse before he came to his senses.  It was God's mercy that he didn't break his neck and only suffered temporary blindness instead.  What kind of "awakening" to these ones need, baffles me?  Of course, they might possibly say that it is us that need to fall off our high horses, as we are the ones presecuting them and God's work.

20-30 years ago some of them pronounced 'Ichabod" on existing churches in their localities.  20-30 years later those churches are still going strong, whereas the assembly is "Ichabod".

But, as you said, the show must go on.  Oh well...

So... Are you going to post your picture now that Brian has solved the post-personal-picture problem??

Lord bless,
Marcia

oh marcia,

you know how long it took me to figure out how to use the bb.  technology is almost as challenging as assembly logic.
pray for me
delila

What is Salvation?

Some found 'salvation' in the assembly, indeed, GG said: the work is your salvation, and we said Amen.  Is this true?  When people 'found salvation' among us we told them "The angels are rejoycing", and then we bullied them on in their 'walk with the Lord'.  I've been accused of cynicism, I know.  But I don't embrace cynicism.  I find no healing in cynicism.  Quite honestly, as I've confessed to others privately, I am really quite optimistic about there being much hope for all of us.  I even flatter myself with moments of confidence: you're a kind of forward thinkger, I say to me.  

But this morning I am considering salvation and the assembly and really choking on the question: what was our salvation?  What was I saved from?  What was I saved to?  Is my salvation anything more than a realization and associated confidence?  Is there anything more than realization and associated confidence?  Is there anything more elevated than realizing that you are, that you are something by virture of being created that?  Is there anything more gratifying than knowing.  I think; therefore I am, I know therefore I am.  I am confident.  Belief: it's almost a minimizer compared to knowing, isn't it?  Faith.  Faithfulness.  Soemone wrote me recently with a thought that divorce is not sanctioned by scripture except in the face of unfaithfulness.  By that I assume he meant sexual unfaithfulness, as if that were the only demoralizing kind of unfaithfulness.
Salvation - divorce: why the flip flop?  And why not?  Since divorce (I believe I read once that CS Lewis was divorced too) seems to be set in antithesis against God's external faithfulness in the gg dynasty, if not in many people'sminds, in scripture.  Christ - the bridegroom, the church - the bride.  Marriage a picture of that union.  One of George's favorite traps too.  The Cinderella story of Western culture - minus the glass slippers  and the happy ever after.
drj

I know a single woman who adopted several kids.  She said that this was her "salvation" from a self-centered life.  What she meant was that having kids helped her leave her self-absorbed party lifestyle and find contentment in living for others.  She didn't mean it in the "justified before God" sense.  When George said "your salvation is in the work", he was speaking in the same sense as the single woman, not the Biblical sense.  I can say, for instance, my job is my salvation from a purposeless existance.  However, this is a figure of speach, not a Biblical doctrine of salvation.

As for what Christians believe about salvation, have you read anywhere what Evangelical Christians believe about salvation or "justification by faith"?  There are many Christian books that discuss this.  Billy Graham's books are a good place to start.  If not him, Greg Laurie.  I would have to guess that you know more than you let on if you were put to the test.

As for C.S. Lewis, I'm not sure he was divorsed, though I could be wrong.   He married a woman later in life who died of cancer and wrote about the experience in "A Grief Observed".  To my knowledge, he had no other marriages.  Either way, marriage is a picture of salvation and Evangelical Christians often do a lousy job carrying forth this picture.  It doesn't mean that God's ideal is misguided.  It just means His people mess up alot.
 

Dr. Lewis only married once. He was quite against divorce and remarriage on scriptural grounds until a certain American Divorcee got his attention. It caused quite a stir among his friends. Dr. Tolkien did not go to Mrs. Lewis' funeral because of this. Something he greatly regretted later realizing that no matter the sin of his friend he was in great pain and needed his friends.

That God hates divorce is clearly stated in scripture. That marriage is for life is assumed. That does not mean--as in cases of abuse--that divorce never becomes necessary. In that instance I think God hates it not so much because it is an infraction to cosmic law, but our Father knows the damage, the heartbreak, the sorrow it causes His children. As with our own children, He rejoices in our triumphs and feels with us our pains. In the experience of my friends I have found no pain so sharp or utter as divorce (except for the death of a child or spouse).

--Jem

Hi to All who have posted and those who have been reading here as well!  :)

  I miss a lot, due to the fact that I am on the road from time to time.  I was reading back through this topic and discovered some very interesting discussion that I missed.
  Dave and Delila, Re. "salvation":  GG well could have meant that what we were doing in the Assembly was literally for our "full" salvation!  If you want to get to the worst distortion provided by GG it was on this topic of salvation.  Evangelicals and Bible believing Protestant Christians believe that salvation is a gift, and that it is given in it's fullness at the new birth.
   GG used his false earned grace (an oxymoron) teaching as the carrot dangling in front of us to get us to pull his Assembly cart down the road.  We all thought that we almost had the carrot in reach, but it was always just beyond us.  
   What grace means for the Christian is that we are yoked together with Christ and learn to pull the cart with Him (But, God's cart is not the list of do's that GG preached).  Such "labor" does not seem like labor at all, for the burden is easy and light.  True representives of Christ do not load up God's people with "things to do for God", rather they help carry the burdens of people with them.
   What I see on this thread are those who are talking like one oxen to another, vs. the Assembly model of motivation that uses the whip and carrot.  The Assembly model had those who pulled the cart and those who drove the cart.
    In a true version of "walking with God" we should not even be aware of producing any kind of "work for God."  Those of us who think that we've lost all of our spiritual life because we have trouble reading the Bible etc. need to see that spiritual activities are a result of walking with God and not the means to that end.  Whether I read my Bible or not, Jesus' invitation to come near to Him and give Him my burden and find rest still stands; it is an invitation of sincere love and genuine care from our God that understands our total inability to live the Christian life without His grace! :)
   I see on this thread those who honestly express their difficulty with "doing spiritual disciplines", and in helping others with their pain in this regard.  Jesus calls this love, and that is the highest expression of fruitfulness that God can create in our lives.
  This is what I have often said:  From the ashes of our Assembly experience can come the discovery of what we were all seeking as we pulled the Assembly cart for GG--- a life with God!!  We have much to offer one another and those others whom God brings across our paths.  Not to teach them spiritual disciplines, but to help them see that God's love is real and that His grace can give them hope!! :) :)  All of you have helped me greatly!! :) :)
                                 God bless,  Mark C.  
   

This morning I subbed at St. Mary's Catholic school.  Grade 7 viewed Jesus of Nazareth on video.  It is an incredible story - how Mary was asked to trust God - how her pregnancy with the Son of God could very well have meant her death by stoning.  How she trusted God.  I kept my tears in my face, wiped my nose a lot.  And Herod too, raving lunatic that he was, killing all the little ones.  Rachel, weeping for her little ones, and she would not be comforted.  The wise men too, somehow their wisdom - outside of scripture - yet wisdom anyway, lead them to the great king who would free all men from their sin.  Somehow.  And still I wonder at the actual essence of salvation.  That kings and shepherds alike were led to the baby in the manger.  I wonder, because I never want to go back to what I was.  I never want to drag my trap around and invite others too, raving to them about how kind God is, inviting them to step inside.  The little Lord Jesus asleep in the hay, the slaughter of children to erase Christ.  Mary: "Be it done unto thy maidservant according to thy word" I'm awed by Mary, though I once too said these words (seven years running) whatever you want Lord, I'm game.  Those words take courage, but more than that, faith.  Do I have that kind of faith?
drj

     That's you doing your part...


     Christ has courage and faith in abundance-- more than enough for us all.  It is evident that He is doing His part...

What do you believe now?

George taught us a lot of his personal theology and many, myself included sopped it up like a sponge. My excuse is I never heard any other teaching before because I got saved in the Assembly, and thought that George knew practically everything. I am re-evaluating everything now both good and bad to see what “I BELIEVE” and “WHY I BELIEVE IT”.

I don’t necessarily support any of the things below. They are just points to consider to see what you personally believe. It is not a test there are no RIGHT answers. It is meant to challenge us to think about our glorious salvation and I believe it will help us to be stronger IF we are seeking Christ in it and not head knowledge so I can beat you with my arguments for and against.

Universal Reconciliation

I don’t subscribe to this doctrine but find it insteresting to study to understand where others are coming from.

http://www.growthingod.org.uk/UNIREC.HTM


Predestination

I have discussed this at length on the Limited Atonement threads.

http://www.growthingod.org.uk/PREDEST.HTM


Can a believer lose his or her salvation?

And about this passage does it mean you lose your salvation? I personally don’t think anyone who is truly saved can lose their salvation. But some say this is proof you can. Please read Scofield link below before saying anything first. He says it is the unbelieving Jew and not related to losing salvation.

6:4 For in the case of those who have once been enlightened and have tasted of the heavenly gift and have been made partakers of the Holy Spirit,
6:5 and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come,
6:6 and then have fallen away, it is impossible to renew them again to repentance, since they again crucify to themselves the Son of God and put Him to open shame.
6:7 For ground that drinks the rain which often falls on it and brings forth vegetation useful to those for whose sake it is also tilled, receives a blessing from God;
6:8 but if it yields thorns and thistles, it is worthless and close to being cursed, and it ends up being burned.

http://bible.crosswalk.com/Commentaries/ScofieldReferenceNotes/srn.cgi?book=heb&chapter=006

Hugh :)

JULY 27TH AT 11:53 PM:

I am resurrecting this first post on this thread of Delilah's.
Seeing thing differently, in reference to the assembly/GG teachings.

SEEING THINGS DIFFERENTLY AS A CHRISTIAN

Compared to a life of sin and a life saved from sin.

We should be seeing things differently in our own lifes, in the lifes of other believers, in our places of worship, and we should be seeing things differently from people who go to these places and in their own lifes as they proclaim the name of Jesus as their Saviour.

I am not talking about human weakness that our body languages tells others that we are ill, grieving, struggling.

It is the out right lies , that are out there for all the world to see.
Especially when a certain religion, because it name means Christian , that people born into this religion is automatic a Christian, and if they follow there rituals, they are automatic, and all there relatives have to do, when they die, is pray them into heaven. Even there children, grandchildren and great grandchildren are taught that on the anniversay of the relatives death, to pray for them. Even a child who hasnt even seen this ancestor  asks for prayer for them.  Which I believe when a child is praying GOd will honour that praying child.
But it is the adults, thinks they can go out and live the way they want to live, cursing, swearing, carousing, polluting their bodies and others around them,  and still expect to make it into heaven, upon peoples prayers for them.

Seeing things different in a Christian Lifes should be reflecting Jesus in your lifes.  In the way you speak, not the "f" abusive word coming out of your mouth every two seconds.   Even speech that is negative can be hard to distinguish a person from  world of Christ to the world period.  What about  a person who claims to be a evanglistic Christ and is repeatingly divorcing and remarrying every few years years. Where is the difference in this from the world of Christ to the world.
Not only that, they are constantly getting married within the church.  I can see divorced once as a mistake,  circumstances like abuse,  repeatly unfaithful spouse.  

What about a church or Christian Groups that form clicks, and makes it hard for even newly born Christians to enter in to that circle.  Where is the difference their.

What about Christians who gossip , slander, be snobbish, thinks there better than others, where is the difference in this?

I could go on and on, and repeatly write from my email soapbox.  I include myself in this sounding off. The lesson I say, I still need to learn, and do myself.

Seeing things different, it is not just seeing the truth coming out of an experience like the hurts, and abuses of the GG influences, but it is a daily exercise in the Christian life.  Coming out of any experience where we have been groping in the dark, that we are trying to find the light to see the truth, It is the truth that helps us see things differently.

Gidday from the Ottawa Valley

Lenore
Getting off her soapbox now

     OK, I admit it:  I remember when delila started this thread, & I'm amazed at how differently I look at many things than I did then.  And it's been less than six months!
    Sometimes when I'm cruising the new posts, I'll drop back a few pages on one thread or another, just to see the changes in direction that the conversation has made...  My own posts surprise me the most, because I seldom remember moving on from where I was when I wrote them to where I am now, and yet I definitely have moved on.

     Jesus told His disciples that He is the Vine and we are His branches:  We are to grow or we will wither; dormancy is not an option.  To not grow is ultimately to wither into uselessness.  But Jesus does not command us "Grow!"  Instead He says "Abide in Me."  To abide is to stay put and to live; to hold onto; to remain;  to dwell.  That's all He tells us to do, because that's all we can do.  We have not the resources to produce growth in ourselves-- only the Vine can do that.

     As a child I was usually the shortest kid in my class, and OH! how I wanted to grow.  It used to make me nuts when a relative or family friend would visit and say to me, "Look how you've grown!"
     I wanted to scream at them, "I haven't grown!  I'm just as short as I was yesterday!"  But that was the problem:  my perspective.  I looked in the mirror & checked my height against the pencil mark on the wall every day.  One day's growth is negligible.  These visitors hadn't seen me in months or years, and compared to their most recent memories, I must have seemed to have shot up like a weed.

    Jesus doesn't want us to taunt ourselves with daily growth-checks.  He wants us to look to Him, draw our life from Him, learn of Him, and let Him bear any concern for our growth.  Which of you by taking thought can...  Apart from Him we can do nothing.  Abiding in Him we lack for nothing.  Suddenly, one day the mark on the door is at eye level-- we no longer have to look upward to see it.  We have grown.  We are seeing things differently!

    Have you ever said to a really tall person, "How's the weather up there?"  (Don't!-- Really tall people have told me that line gets really old!!)  The point is that growth provides a different outlook.  Spiritual growth is no different in that respect.  A new believer will strain to grasp spiritual concepts, reaching as high and as deep and as far as possible, and may grow very frustrated with the inability to reconcile spiritual truths with the thought processes learned in the world of the unredeemed.  But with persistence will come the reward of things beginning to make sense, of truth prevailing over the ways of fallen humanity.  Growth occurs.  Things begin to appear differently.

    Standing on tiptoe never helped me, but as I learned to apply myself to the things I could do, I found that one day I had grown to be exactly as tall as I was meant to be.  So it is with the spirit of man:  We cannot change a thing about our true selves, but by applying ourselves to abiding in Christ, seeking to know Him, to understand Him, to appreciate the unspeakable gift of Him, and asking Him for His blessing in all such pursuits, we will utterly distract ourselves from the petty quests of self-interest.  We will grow and we will not notice.  We will not notice that we have grown until one day it dawns upon us that we are looking at something familiar and seeing it differently than we ever have before.

    Then let us be careful to give our gracious Lord both the thanks and the glory, for the process does not end there, but has just begun, and is meant to continue forever...