Re:Guided by God

[Joe Sperling]

God really let me down today. I got up and sought his "leading" as to what I should wear today. Well, I got to work and looked in the mirror. I had on brown shoes, black pants and a brown belt, and in the name of all that's holy how did I wind up putting on a Disney T-shirt??  Just kidding of course.

Jem---I think God is as close as ever, and is always watching us and taking care of us. But, just as children rely on their parents for literally "everything" when they are small, but then gradually learn more and more to use their "own" minds, I think the same applies to us. We always rely on God, but there are many decisions that we can make on our own, by using the very brains that God has given us. I don't need to get up and ask "Oh Lord, should I wear the blue shirt or the white shirt today?" The Assembly mentality(and many other legalistic churches) is that we ask God for basically everything, and make no decisions on our own.

It basically boils down to choosing a mentality that God is responsible for every aspect of our lives and we need to "ask" before we do anything, and basically "wait". Or, to realize that God has told us his will "The Lord has shown thee oh man what is good. And what does the Lord require of thee? But to do justly, love mercy and walk humbly with your God"(Micah 6:, and use the minds he has given us to decide the best way to live in accordance with his will. we don't need to ask God where we should live---we should do the will of God above wherever we "choose" to live.

--Joe

[vernecarty]

Subjective "God talk" only becomes a problem is when we begin to bind other people - expecially the weak - with it ("No, you can't pursue an advanced degree because God says you are a child of Zion to build his mountain of testimony and thus he needs you at the meetings of the week") or if it makes us completely unable to think though a circumstance objectively ("I know my boss is abusing me, but God says he want me be here.")

It would be silly to say that God never speaks to people.

Words of wisdom.
I think this is the long and short of it.
For those living a life led by and filled with the Spirit of God as evidenced by holiness I think any and everything is possible as regards God's supernatural working.
I hear these kinds of stories from missionaries all the time.
Paul and I heard some in Kenya and I have no reason whatsoever to doubt their veracity.
We do sadly live in a terribly mechanistic age and some of us have lost our wonder at the Creator God we serve...

So what I understand some people are saying is that God can intervene in our lives supernaturally, but he does it so rarely that we shouldn't particularly look for it, expect it, or believe for it.

This probably is indeed the disposition and experience of most American believers. It is certainly not true for many Christians in other parts of the world. That this is true of us in some sense may speak to our own spiritual poverty, our material abundance notwithstanding.
We also are very ignorant in this country for the most part, about what God is doing and has done elsewhere.

And that would seem that our relationship with God and Christ is not really "a personal relationship with Jesus" in that He doesn't really communicate and/or help us on a daily basis similar to the way our closest friends and family do.

Boy does this cut close to home. It exposes us for the religious people were are deep down inside. TOUCHE'!!




Verne

[BeckyW]

Very interesting discussion.
Why would God would encourage us in His word to pray about everything if it were just a meaningless exercise?  He answers prayer.
And yes, He gave us minds so we would use them.  Too often the assembly
'live by faith' teaching really meant seek counsel from leaders and act on it it.
As I listened to the late Reggie White's testimony recently, I was glad no one ever told him he couldn't play pro football on Sunday because Sunday was supposed to be All Day for the Lord.
As I read about William Wilberforce I was thankful his Christian friends encouraged him to stay in politics after his conversion, because he was instrumental in passing laws to abolish slavery in Great Britain.
(Assemblyites said Don't play sports on Sunday, and Politics is all compromise and no place for Christians.)
I believe God speaks to us through His Holy Spirit.  In fact, I remember what He said to me the morning after I heard of Geo.'s ex-comm.  It was from Matthew 7.  He clearly said, Corrupt trees produce corrupt fruit.  Beware of false prophets....

Becky

[outdeep]

I hear these kinds of stories from missionaries all the time.
Paul and I heard some in Kenya and I have no reason whatsoever to doubt their veracity.
We do sadly live in a terribly mechanistic age and some of us have lost our wonder at the Creator God we serve...

Verne, I think you are definately right-on about this.  I have heard stories of Africa and South America - where I think the Christian "center" is moving to in the years ahead.  At Amsterdam 2000, I met believers who had nothing but God Himself and found God came through in real, not in just interpretive ways.  As we are so "mechanized", as you put it, and self-sufficient (if I lose my lunch, I can hop in my car, swing by the ATM and run over to Chick-Fil-e and buy another) I think we see less demonstative workings of God, so we fill the void with "God talk".

[outdeep]

Very interesting discussion.
Why would God would encourage us in His word to pray about everything if it were just a meaningless exercise?  He answers prayer.

I don't think anyone is saying that prayer is a meaningless exercise.  If nothing else, it is a demonstration that we need God (Luke 18).  In my story example, I think God did answer my friend's prayers in that God directed their lives and brought them to a place where they could provide for their families in spite of having made bad decisions.  Prayer answered.  I just think some of the "God talk" they used to describe the process was simply unnecessary ornamentation.

I believe God speaks to us through His Holy Spirit.  In fact, I remember what He said to me the morning after I heard of Geo.'s ex-comm.  It was from Matthew 7.  He clearly said, Corrupt trees produce corrupt fruit.  Beware of false prophets....

Maybe God bent down and spoke that into your head.  Or, you maybe you read the passage before and you suddenly made the mental connection that it fit the circumstances.

[Jem]

Joe, Joe, Joe,

If we hear the I-ask-God-what-color-shirt(or shoes)-to-wear-today example one time many will go screaming from the board. Been used. We get it. I don't think anyone on this thread does that.

It is the same with the kid/parent thing. But let me fling out a verse that I need to tell Tom upfront that I know I am taking totally out of context. "For thy Maker is thine husband; the Lord of hosts is his name; and thy Redeemer the Holy One of Israel; The God of the whole earth shall he be called." Isaiah 54:5

I know, I know, this verse is referring to messiah in the kingdom age and the promise is to Zion. I realize we Christians, contextually, have no encouragment we can pull from this verse, objectively, other than Israel will be saved in the end and have a rather close relationship with God. We can only rejoice with our Jewish brethren on this one.

I also know that thousands of benighted born-agains have subjectively taken this as the level of intimacy they are to have with God once they have been redeemed. Poor souls just don't understand the context.

Just thought I'd let y'all know that so we didn't have to cover that territory again.

So Joe, getting past the kid/parent paradigm let us move on to the husband/wife paradigm. If I have a personal relationship with Jesus would we not converse? He being the eternal Logos and all. I don't ask my husband what color shirt I should wear in the morning, but I certainly chat him up if I'm going to switch jobs or put one of the kids up for adoption. It is not a matter so much of getting his yea or nay on every detail as being on the same page with him, abiding in him (or with him as the metaphor goes).

The Lord implanted this thought in my head after I read the Wiesers post: "Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit..." Billy Graham thinks he can talk to God, so did Mother Teresa and Ellizabeth Elliot come to think of it. I think I'll hang with those folks on this one.

[vernecarty]

As I listened to the late Reggie White's testimony recently, I was glad no one ever told him he couldn't play pro football on Sunday because Sunday was supposed to be All Day for the Lord.

 Don't you just love the "Minister of Defence"?  
Reggie was truly a man's man! Can't wait to see him in glory

I believe God speaks to us through His Holy Spirit.  In fact, I remember what He said to me the morning after I heard of Geo.'s ex-comm.  It was from Matthew 7.  He clearly said, Corrupt trees produce corrupt fruit.  Beware of false prophets....

Becky

That's interesting. I never spent to so much time on my knees as during those fateful months and my plaintive cry was:

Why??!!

The passage from which I believe the Lord spoke to me about what was going on was 2 Peter 2; also about false prophets.
I do not believe I have ever had such a powerful impact on my being from the Word of God.
Of course Becky. there are some who would conclude that we are just a bit deluded since we are clearly taking those passages "out of context"  huh?  

I think I'll hang with those folks on this one.

String me up with the rest of 'em  

Verne

[Joe Sperling]

Jem---

I wasn't directing the "clothing" stupid joke at you--simply playing around tongue in cheek about the way some Christians are. I am in no way saying we should not converse with the Lord. What I was trying to say is this basically: we are to be as little children, but not in the sense that we ask about everything ad nauseum. I'm sure you have ridden with a little child in the car who asks so many questions it begins to get irritating. They are prone to ask "Mommy, what should I wear?" Mommy, what are we going to eat?" "Are we there yet?" etc. etc.--cute at the time--but it sure would begin to get tiring if this kid continued to do this at age 15.

I was simply saying that the Lord is always there--at the beginning we ask about everything because we are "babes"--but in time we learn that God has given us our own minds to use, and we can make the decisions we thought we couldn't make before. This doesn't "lessen" the conversation with Jesus--it simply "changes" the type of conversation we have. Little "kids" whine a lot--so do babes in Christ(in many ways I still am a babe in Christ). In the beginning we walk far more with our feelings than by faith. God teaches us to walk by faith by removing some of the feelings sometimes so we rely on his Word more. We enter the "husband/wife" theme you were referring to.

So, again, Jem, sorry you are tired of the lame humor--I just like to have fun with things sometimes.  I thought the "just kidding of course" at the end of the paragraph made that abundantly clear-maybe not. I seriously doubt people are going to go "screaming from the board" due to a few lame jokes or stories. I thank the Lord that he himself has a great sense of humor. But if you'd like I will refrain from jokes, puns, etc. when responding to any of your posts. But I do seriously believe God does communicate with us, and we with Him. And I do truly believe he can use many different means to do so. But I believe He truly wants us to learn to walk by faith, and rely far more on his Word than on our subjective feelings.

God bless,  Joe

[Jem]

Joe,

It was not the humor I objected to. Obviously I was rather tongue-in-cheek myself. It was more how many times the joke has been made on this thread.

It's like those kids in your example in the back seat--and I know kids in the back seat--the 5th grader tells a joke so 3rd grader tells it again with a slight variation. Then the 1st grader gives it a whirl and doesn't understand why everyone is not laughing because it worked for the 5th grader.

I do enjoy the humor.

[Joe Sperling]

Jem---

That's a very good point. Enough's enough--I get it, I get it.  You're right-- I have had my own kids say "tell that joke again" and then again, and again. Point well taken.

Thanks, Joe

[al Hartman]

Okay, Folks... Confession time:

I really used to ask the Lord stuff like which shirt to wear.  In fact, I desperately wanted to have an ultra-subjective relationship with God.  I won't go into all the reasons I now suspect I had that desire, but I will tell you that I am extremely glad that He never allowed me to think that I had succeeded.  Learning to really know Him through His Word far surpasses anything I might have attained to through my "sensing" Him.

It didn't take me too long to get beyond the shirt thing, though.  You see, I'm colorblind.  So if I'd ask what color shirt to wear and a voice in my head answered, "The puce one," I would look at my half dozen shirts (all various shades of grey to my eyes) and still be just as mystified as before.  Dared I ask again, "which one is the puce one?" and risk hearing back, "I'm tired of this game, let's play something else?"

We can give thanks always in all situations, so I am learning to go gratefully to my closet, silently thanking the Lord that I have so many nice grey shirts from which to choose.

But, honestly, we have no reason to think that our Lord doesn't care what we buy or wear or drive or where we live, and there's certainly no scriptural reason to not ask for His guidance and blessing on our deciding such matters.  He surely knows all about these things from eternity past.  The problems come not from asking rightly (not my will but thine be done), but from our attempting to qualify HOW God will/must answer us.  Signs and wonders, still small voices, and miracles are not and have never been parlor tricks.  God will not perform to entertain us.

Whatever we do we are to do heartily, as doing it unto Him.  So our confidence is that He cares, He will take care of us, and He is in no way obligated to answer us in any tangible way.  If we do somehow "sense" what proves to be His will in a matter, let us both be endlessly grateful and thankful, and let us not allow the incident to become a precedent for future occasions.  His way with us is as reliable as His Word, but where His Word is non-specific (should I drive or fly, etc.), His conduct must never be presumed to be scripted, but always (as we view it) improvisational.

Blessings,
al

P.S.-- I'm really only partially colorblind.  I see most colors, but I can't always tell them apart.  Kinda tough to describe to you normal folk...

[outdeep]

The Lord implanted this thought in my head after I read the Wiesers post: "Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit..." Billy Graham thinks he can talk to God, so did Mother Teresa and Ellizabeth Elliot come to think of it. I think I'll hang with those folks on this one.

One problem of a discussion like this on a BB is that the argument is often countered by portraying the other posters as saying something more extreme than they are saying.

No one is saying that we don't talk to God.
No one is saying that we don't pray.
No one is saying that God doesn't answer prayer.
No one is saying that we don't have subjective experiences from time to time.
No one is saying that these subjective experiences are not useful from time to time as long as we don't abandon objective means to test the experience.
No one is saying that you can't read the Bible devotionally provided that you keep yourself on an even keel by objective, historical, contextual understanding of the doctrines the Bible is teaching.

I just think that the Evangelical subculture has swung in an imbalanced way towards subjective "God talk" without really thinking about it.   I have observed that we often interprete things with this spiritual "God talk" (God led me, God spoke to me, God is leading me) when around Christians and use other means when we are around those at work (This is a good investment, I need to take time off for my health, I want to move to be close to my parents).

I share these thoughts (and ones in my previous posts) not because I think I am smarter than everyone or have thought it through myself.  To be honest, I am not very good at thinking things through throughly.  It is only because of the many, many, many times I would cry to God to "hear his voice" and to "speak to me".  I would try to find that subjective voice within me.  I would try to clear my heart of all possible sin and listen.

Nothing.  

It didn't get me out of the Assembly.  It helped me make some personal decisions without my brain engaged that to this day I regret.  I would never hear this subjective leading.  An angel never appeared at the food of my bed.  Sure, I might be "led" to offer a song, but I was never "led" to find a solution to my depression.

Over the years, I stopped trying to find this inner voice.  I would pray earnestly, make the wisest decisions I possibly could and then interprete providential circumstances as God's answer to prayer.

For example, I cry to the Lord to help my wayward son.  I do whatever my puny brain can think of to be a good father and keep communications open with him.  And I interprete it as an answer to prayer when the kid who introduced my son to drugs moved away or my son comes to me and tells me that he wants to stop smoking.

This is the only way that I figured out to walk with the Lord without compartmentalizing my "God talk" and "subjective spiritual interpretations" to one side of my life and my "objective reason" and fact-based language to another.

[vernecarty]

I just think that the Evangelical subculture has swung in an imbalanced way towards subjective "God talk" without really thinking about it.  

Remember the knee-jerk "Praise the Lord" of us former assemblyites?
It was always a bit of a challenge not to lapse into that thoughtless phraseology after I recently left George-town but one day it hit me -

You are taking the Lord's Name in vain!

Cured me permanently...

Verne

[Eulaha L. Long]

I often pray at night that God would grant me another day.  I don't know if this type of prayer is necessary.  Is it possible that God may not give me another day to live?

I think about accident victims, and how people say that "God called them home".  Does that imply that God caused the accident, resulting in their death?  I'm really confused...

[vernecarty]

I often pray at night that God would grant me another day.  I don't know if this type of prayer is necessary.  Is it possible that God may not give me another day to live?

I think about accident victims, and how people say that "God called them home".  Does that imply that God caused the accident, resulting in their death?  I'm really confused...

Eulaha:
Your time on this earth is determined by God Himself. The only person the Bible records as being able to change that was King Hezekiah.
He prayed that God would extend his life and God granted him an additonal fifteen years. Interestingly enough, the case could be made that he was better off without that additional time.
God has determined and knows the exact day of your departure (unless you choose to shorten your life by suicide or dishonoring your parents). If you are living according to His will, your life is absolutely untouchable until He says so.
The key to living effectively in my humble opinion is to realise that our time here is limited, and that our highest aim should be to fulfill all of God's purpose for our existence in the time that He has given!

You are absolutely right to pray about each and every day - it is a precious gift...

So teach us to number our days, that we may apply our hearts unto wisdom. Psalm 90:12

p.s. Although God does not cause every accident, the fact that it occurred means it will somehow serve His purpose...if not, He would have prevented it...