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Author Topic: Let's take the gloves off!  (Read 36166 times)
Oscar
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« Reply #45 on: July 05, 2004, 01:05:38 am »

Thanks Al,

         Yes Tom I should be ashamed of myself for threatening an 80 year old man.  Yet for 15 years George had no qualms about getting physical with me. Literaly at times he would throw out his chest and walk through me. He had no qualms about publicly humiliating me or demeaning me in private. He had no qualms about letting me know who's  boss whenever he felt like it. He had no mercy on me when my wife left me. Only words of condemnation and ridicule. (Kinda like what you do to me on this B.B.!) Yes I am sorry but at the time I needed to stand up to him and let him know he didn't have me whipped any longer. Perhaps I was the Lords instrument? Perhaps if others did the same they wouldn't have taken their own lives?  Or ended up in a mental hospital? George himself often boasted about how he "cleaned peoples clocks" And I think if given the chance many people would like to clean his. Forgive me Tom I was wrong.

David,

Your reply, though I don't doubt that it is sincere, shows the moral confusion that athiesm forces a person into.

As I have said many times, if atheism is true there are no rules beyond personal preferences.  So, beating up old men is neither good nor evil, just what one feels like doing at the time.

All that matters, in this system, is avoiding unpleasant consequences for acts one commits.

Your explanation reveals something else, Dave.  First, that deep in your heart the laws of God are written, just as the Bible says.  You know that such an act would be wrong.

Second, at the same time, the fallen mind seeks justification for evil desires and acts.  "in that they show the work of the Law written in their hearts, their concience bearing witness and their thoughts alternately accusing or else defending them." (Romans 2:15)

Your explanation falls into a line of thought that was described in the early chapters of Genesis, thousands of years ago.

"Lamech said to his wives, Adah and Zillah, 'listen to my voice, you wives of Lamech, give heed to my speech, for I have killed a man for wounding me; and a boy for striking me; if Cain is avenged sevenfold, then Lamech seventy-sevenfold." (Gen. 4:23-24)

In other words, "I was offended so I can do whatever I wish in order to obtain revenge."  Notice also the self centeredness and self importance of Lamech.  He is ten times more important than Cain.

This is the mind set on the flesh that is hostile to the law of God and does not subject itself to the law of God.  (Romans 8:7)

As long as you pursue this path you will have to live in this kind of irrationality and moral confusion.  What hyporcisy atheism necessitates.  I have never actually met an atheist who is willing to "live and let live" in logical consistancy with his professed beliefs.

They, like you Dave, always end up preaching moral judgements upon those they dislike, and excusing all kinds of evil that they wish to do, or at least be free to do.

As a Christian, I do not live perfectly.  But at least I can have a worldview that is logically consistent with physical reality and human moral necessity.

God bless,

Thomas Maddux
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Oscar
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« Reply #46 on: July 05, 2004, 01:16:03 am »

Hi folks,

Here is a newspaper column about our good friend Michael Moore.



The following are quotes from the San Jose Mercury newspaper of Sunday, June 27, 2004. This paper is a very liberal newspaper and I was surprised that they ran this column by a David Brooks.

 

“Like Hemingway, Moore does his boldest thinking while abroad. For example, it was during an interview with British paper The Mirror that Moore unfurled what is perhaps the central insight of his oeuvre, that Americans are kind of crappy. “They are possibly the dumbest people on the planet … in the thrall to conniving, thieving smug [pieces of the human anatomy]”, Moore intoned. “We Americans suffer from an enforced ignorance. We don’t know about anything that’s happening outside our country. Our stupidity is embarrassing”.

 

“It transpires the Europeans are quite excited to hear this supple description of the American mind. And Moore has been kind enough to crisscross the continent, speaking to packed lecture halls, explicating the general vapidity and crassness of his countrymen. “That’s why we’re always smiling all the time;,” he told rapturous throng in Munich. “You can see us coming down the street. ‘You know, Hey! Hi! How’s it going’? We’ve got that big [expletive] grin on our face all the time because our brains aren’t loaded down.”

 

“Before a delighted Cambridge crowd, Moore reflected on the tragedy of human existence: “You’re stuck with being connected to this country of mine, which is known for bringing sadness and misery to places around the globe.” In Liverpool, he paused to contemplate the epicenters of evil in the modern world: “It’s all part of the same ball of wax, right? The oil companies, Israel, Haliburton.”

 

“We, the United States of America, are culpable in committing so many acts of terror and bloodshed that we had better get a clue about culture of violence in which we have been active participants.”

 

“Don’t be like us”, he told a crowd in Berlin. “You’ve got to stand up, right? You’ve got to be brave.”

 

“In an open letter to the German people in Die Zelt, Moore asked “Should such an ignorant people lead the world?”

 

“But venality doesn’t come up when he writes about those who are killing Americans inn Iraq: “The Iraqis who have risen up against the occupation are not “

‘insurgents’ or ‘terrorists’ or ‘The Enemy.’ They are the REVOLUTION, the Minutemen, and their numbers will grow –and they will win.”


When I look at this man on TV, I do not see a joyful, positive individual.  What I see is an angry, negative, miserable man whose obesity and slovenly appearance are expressive of the realities of his inner life.

Such a man is to be pitied and prayed for, not followed as an intellectual or moral guide.

God bless,

Thomas Maddux
 

 

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Mark C.
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« Reply #47 on: July 05, 2004, 04:19:59 am »

Hi Everyone,

  I am reluctant to make this BB into a political debate forum, but since it is July 4th, and in honor of this great remembrance, I will make an offering.  in so doing I would like to mention several important endorsements of the movie, "Fahrenheit 911":

   Hezbollah has come out with a very positive review of this movie

    Yes, the Arab press has reported that Hezbollah (the same group that sends bombers to blow up innocent Jewish children and who killed our Marines in Lebanon) gives"two thumbs up" to the Michael Moores movie.

   Saddam Hussein, though he has been unable to see the movie, agrees with Michael Moore that "Bush is a criminal"

  As to voting for Kerry for President:  10 out of 10 terrorists polled agree that Kerry is their man and that Bush is a criminal that should be defeated!

  With these kind of endorsements for the leftist view of things how can we not join David in signing up the great unwashed masses to support the Democrats?! Wink  
      The proliteriat shall arise!!!  And up with The Berkley Barb!!!    Grin

                      God Bless America,  Mark C. ( a former hippie) Wink

   



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M2
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« Reply #48 on: July 05, 2004, 09:28:48 am »

Hi Mark,

We are re-evaluating where we stand on spiritual matters and political matters and everything, so it would be great if you did enter into the political 'debates' more often.

I heard that there is another documentary of 9/11.  Has anyone seen DC 9/11?  David Frum comments on that movie:

http://www.nationalreview.com/frum/diary091003.asp
David Frum's Diary on National Review Online

SEP. 10, 2003: AFTERSHOCKS
Chetwynd’s Bush

In preparation for the 9/11 commemorations tomorrow, I watched last night Lionel Chetwynd’s excellent “Showtime” docudrama, “DC 9/11.” I don’t know how others will respond, but for me it very authentically revived memories of one of the most terrible days in my life – and not only because a character based on me makes a cameo appearance in the film.

Chetwynd gets details impressively right, down to the exact lamps in the Oval Office. He has found actors who look spookily like the characters they play, including President Bush himself. And the crux of his story is the essential thing that was visible to all of us who were there at the time: Bush’s absolute, unquestioned personal command.

DC 9/11 is a movie with a thesis – and in today’s context the thesis is a provocative one: that the war on terror was intended and understood from the very start to begin with Afghanistan, but not to end there. For the TV-viewing public, the movie stresses and restresses the connection between Middle Eastern radicalism and Middle Eastern terrorism – and that we won’t defeat the latter until we have discredited the former. That’s how President Bush saw it from the start, and he was right. The movie has Bush and others saying aloud how radically they intend to depart from the policies of the past – and that is right too. The sense of the wrongness of America’s old Middle East ways pervaded the White House after 9/11 and spared a series of confrontations with those officials (especially Colin Powell) who regarded themselves as conservators of the nation’s policy traditions.

Powell is shown in 9/11 as a rather good-natured but essentially unthreatening personality. That rather sharply contrasts with the way in which many of us perceived him at the time: as a highly skilled bureaucratic warrior, determined to fight as many rear-guard actions as needed to defend the Saudi connection and everything that followed from the Saudi connection, including the survival of Saddam Hussein after Desert Storm.

My one question about Chetwynd’s movie is that it is so carefully redacted, follows actual events so closely, that I wonder whether TV audiences will find it dramatic enough. It opens after all with Donald Rumsfeld scourging a congressional delegation for a too-stingy defense appropriation! When has such a scene as that ever opened a Showtime movie? But audiences do sometimes rise to a brave film-maker’s expectations, and that deserves to happen with this painstakingly wrought presentation of the decisive moments of recent American history.

Marcia
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pbrusati
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« Reply #49 on: July 06, 2004, 12:04:34 am »

My two cents worth:

I have a friend in the Marines who has been deployed to Iraq.  When he got back I asked him how the Iraqi people feel about us being there.  Most are glad we are there and glad to be rid of Sadam.  This is not widely reported in the media because ("suprise!") they hate Bush, don't want to say anything nice abouyt him (even if it's true), and don't want him to win the next election.

Michael Moore is primarily interested in pushing his political agenda so being truthful is of no importance to him.  I would like to publish a rebuttal to many of his purported "facts.".

Spititual warfare often boils down to truth:  Satan uses lies to keep people under his control, God uses truth to set people free.
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lenore
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« Reply #50 on: July 06, 2004, 09:07:17 am »

 Smiley: Can I ask what may be a loaded question?

It related to 911 disaster:

The war in Afghanastan:

What do you hear, on the streets of American, when the Canadian Soldiers were killed by friendly American fire?

I havent seen the movie that is being discussed around here.
I have heard news reports.
But sometime getting the people prespective is better than getting it from a reporters need for sensationalism.

Maybe it is too loaded of a question?

Lenore
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Recovering Saint
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« Reply #51 on: July 06, 2004, 11:42:16 am »

Michael Moore for President

Michael Moore is an idealist and like the activists of the 60s only has half baked understanding of all the facts. Like the hippie who became the Wall Street fortune 500  man in later life Moore may wake up one day and see rather than inspiring people to greatness he is disillusioning many who could aspire to greatness. Let him preach to the starving people in Russia he has nothing to offer them and the war torn people of Afghanistan he can't bring peace there. He would probably embrace Sadaam as a great hero of the people if he were President not knowing what a butcher the man was. Do the Iraqi people thank the American and allies who went in. Most do but of course some won't. The atrocities are deplorable and should not happen but every army in every conflict has done the same. That does not make it right but just puts things in perspective. Some of the men and women over there are not suited for the job. It is very difficult to stay focussed when friends of yours are blown up by car bombs. Michael Moore is not living in reality. He dishonestly edits the films for his message and is not truly telling the truth and can not be called a documentary journalist based on the two films we have seen. Does America have problems, yes and big ones but it also has great deeds of valour and triumph as well. To paint only one way is dishonest to the truth and to not acknowledge your own bankruptcy to add to the solution is just as dishonest. Like in the Assembly all we learned to do was tear down and no one was putting back in. Don't tear down what you can't fix. If you know Jesus you know he is against all tyranny in the World and the regime of Sadaam was a tyranny. If you know Jesus he told the people of  the religion of His day he would tear down their institution but unlike Michael Moore He said I will rebuild it in three days. America warts and all is far better than the America Michael Moore sees because he only tears down and has no real workable alternative. He is basking in the sunlight of discontent and is trampling on the graves of your former heroes, your fathers and mothers and grandfathers and grandmothers and generations of great people. Listen to the Michael Moores of today but ask them for a solution. They are silent. They have only one agenda that is themselves. See things in a balanced perspective listen to both Kerry and Bush and anyone else out there who speaks on any side and pray and read and figure things out. Don't go for a sappy story pieced together to elicit an emotional response. Michael Moore is not elected and is not responsible to anybody. Reminds me of GG and you know what he did.

Lord Bless
Hugh
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outdeep
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« Reply #52 on: July 06, 2004, 07:00:49 pm »

Michael Moore and the problem of American (and Jewish) self-hatred
By Dennis Prager

July 6, 2004

http://www.townhall.com/columnists/dennisprager/printdp20040706.shtml

Did you ever notice that there are no Germans going around the world saying, or making movies about, how awful Germany is or has been? Given that Germany unleashed two world wars and invented industrialized genocide, why has there been no German Michael Moore?

Are there any Japanese making films about the absence of Japanese soul-searching or expressions of sorrow over their country's enslavement, torture and murder of Asians in World War II? Has anyone ever encountered any Japanese self-hate?

Any Belgians telling the world how bad their country is? Argentinians? French? France surely has reason to produce people ashamed of their country.

The answer, of course, is no. In fact, among all the world's peoples, only two produce large numbers of individuals who have greater sympathy for those who hate their country or national/ethnic group than for those who love it -- Americans and Jews.

Many on the American Left loathe America (they love the Constitution and their vision of what America could be) and have contempt for the average American. That is why most of the Left has such admiration for Michael Moore, who has said, among so much more, the following:

Americans "are possibly the dumbest people on the planet . . . in thrall to conniving, thieving, smug p----s" (London Daily Mirror).
"Should such an ignorant people lead the world?" (open letter to the German People in Die Zeit).

Elsewhere, he speaks of America as bringing immeasurable misery and sadness to the world and as essentially deserving attacks on it.

There are no comparable self-haters in any other country except Israel, whose leftists have the same contempt for their country, nor among any other group except the Jews, whose Left also generally loathe the Jewish state (and America).
Israeli professors in the West are often the leaders in anti-Israel demonstrations and movements. Jews such as Professors Norman Finkelstein and Noam Chomsky devote much of their lives to trying to harm the one Jewish country in the world (and America) and express deep hatred of Jewish institutions.

Here is Finkelstein:

Jewish organizations "steal, and I do use the word with intent, 95 percent of the monies earmarked for victims of Nazi persecution" (Counterpunch, Dec. 13, 2001).

Jews "are not Zionist by conviction, they are Zionist because it is useful for their political and more recently financial self-interest" (same).

In a lecture delivered in Beirut, Finkelstein likened Israeli actions to "Nazi practices" during World War II, albeit with some added "novelties to the Nazi experiments" (Commentary, June 2002).

And Noam Chomsky wrote the foreword to a book denying the Holocaust. This is the same as a black professor writing the foreword to a book by a Ku Klux Klansman.

This self-loathing on the part of Americans and Jews is all the more remarkable when you consider that leftists of every other group strongly affirm their national, cultural and ethnic identities. For example, while American and Jewish leftists ceaselessly attack America and Israel, black and Hispanic leftists ceaselessly defend blacks and Hispanics.

How, then, to explain this anomaly of American and Jewish self-loathing?

I offer four explanations in no order of importance.

First, those Jews and Americans who loathe Israel and America are virtually always on the Left, and the Left around the world hates America and Israel. You can't be a leftist and strongly defend America or Israel. The Left will shun you. And since most of these individuals' primary identity comes from being a leftist, being ostracized from fellow leftists is hell on earth.

Second, many leftists are psychologically adolescents. And one feature of adolescent psychology is anger at a parent who claims very high ideals and turns out to be flawed. Many on the Left are angry at America and Israel for being imperfect and therefore disappointing them.

Third, the words "American" and "Jewish" both represent distinctive value systems, not only national and ethnic identities. And these value systems clash with leftist values. Both American and Jewish identities are rooted in religion and divine chosenness. And the further left one goes, the greater the hostility to religion -- especially to Judaism and Christianity (not to Islam, which the Left often defends, because many Muslims hate Judaism and Christianity as much as the Left does) -- not to mention to any notion of national or religious exceptionalism. When you add to this that America also represents capitalism and holds liberty higher than equality, you can further understand why America elicits so much hatred from its own leftists.

Fourth, since America and Israel are the two most hated countries in the world, and the Jews are the most hated ethnic/religious group, many Americans and Jews would rather identify with the haters than with the hated. That is why, for example, so many American leftists base a large part of their case against George W. Bush on his having increased anti-American sentiments around the world. This makes leftists livid -- again, like adolescents, they yearn to be part of the in-crowd (meaning America- and Israel-haters) and fear being disliked.

There may be other explanations. But what is certain is that American self-hatred and Jewish self-hatred are unique phenomena that play a particularly destructive role in our world.


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Jem
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« Reply #53 on: July 06, 2004, 07:40:12 pm »

Prager is a bit off here on the self-loathing thing. When he asks why we never hear of German or Japanese Michael Moores it is obvious that MM has his own style, but has he never read Gunter Grass or Shusaku Endo? He's got me on the Belgians though. Every nation pretty much has its Left and Right. The extremes of both sides are equally destructive and demonize each other (Moore is to Limbaugh as Clinton is to Gingrich). But the moderates on both sides aspire to higher things with different visions. The saddness is the polarization.
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outdeep
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« Reply #54 on: July 06, 2004, 08:18:10 pm »

Jem,

I think the polarization has been caused by strong special interest ties.  Imagine if abortion and homosexual marriage was not so tied to party.  Then, I believe, we would see Christians and secularists more evenly distributed.  You are correct that it is indeed unfortunate.

-Dave
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al Hartman
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« Reply #55 on: July 06, 2004, 08:29:27 pm »



Prager is a bit off here on the self-loathing thing. When he asks why we never hear of German or Japanese Michael Moores it is obvious that MM has his own style, but has he never read Gunter Grass or Shusaku Endo? He's got me on the Belgians though. Every nation pretty much has its Left and Right. The extremes of both sides are equally destructive and demonize each other (Moore is to Limbaugh as Clinton is to Gingrich). But the moderates on both sides aspire to higher things with different visions. The saddness is the polarization.

Jem,

     An excellent post, with vestiges of hope in your closing thoughts.  Thank you.

     What makes Prager's concept so poignant is that the self-loathing of Americans and Jews is championed by figures that are so popular and important in the public eye.  The Follywood people alone hold the world's attention in their palms.  Moore has probably enjoyed more attention globally in the past week than Grass and Shusaku combined have had since they were first published.


Dave,

     Thanks for sharing the article.  The liberal press is definitely more in the public eye than the conservative viewpoint, and we suffer for the imbalance.

al




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lenore
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« Reply #56 on: July 07, 2004, 06:27:46 am »

Jem,

I think the polarization has been caused by strong special interest ties.  Imagine if abortion and homosexual marriage was not so tied to party.  Then, I believe, we would see Christians and secularists more evenly distributed.  You are correct that it is indeed unfortunate.

-Dave

Agree with this statement: Special interest groups have  the government in their hip pockets.

Yet if we Christian want something important to us, do you think the government would readily be willing to join with us.  I dont think so!!!!!!!!!!

Why do you think that special interests groups such as the topics of abortion, homosexual, have the governments ear, while at the same time we Christians are losing our freedoms to pray, read the bible, worship in public places etc.?

I think the answer is the values that the people who are elected to government tend to follow themselves.
Discrimination, human rights, political correctness, etc.
seem to be favoured to the above named special interested groups over Christians.

I thought for awhile after the 911 attack, in both countries that the pendulum was shifting back to basic christian values again. But that was so short lived.
Canada is consider a dark country where Christianity is consider. A place where other countries are sending missionaries, missionaries from Africa and Asia are coming to witness the truth of God's Gospel.
That how much Canada has become darkened.
Yet who is making great strides in the government law makers, is the abortionist, the homosexuals, etc.
Canada is becoming cold.
I remember what the Bible says the hearts of many will go cold. I say that too myself , each time I want to wallow in self pity and bitterness.  It becomes a whisper in the dark place.
Canada is a heart that is growing cold. Not just the weather.
It is funny though. It is seems that non Christian people have a very warm heart in generousity and giving.
The difference between Christians and Non Christians the line has gotten so blurred that sometimes there is no difference in that  lifestyle.
Which is ashame.
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David Mauldin
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« Reply #57 on: July 07, 2004, 09:00:05 am »

Hi friends,  

        find me at ex-christrians.net

                  http.www.vanallens.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=4740
« Last Edit: July 07, 2004, 09:05:12 am by David Mauldin » Logged
outdeep
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« Reply #58 on: July 07, 2004, 05:37:28 pm »

Dave,

I couldn't get your website reference to work.  Remind me again why you are rejecting Jesus Christ and his teachings?

-Dave
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Arthur
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« Reply #59 on: July 07, 2004, 08:16:23 pm »

He typed it wrong, here's the correct address, though I think the website is having technical problems (which are the least of their problems).

http://www.vanallens.com/forum/index.php

It's a support group for "ex-Christians".  

You know David, if you have a problem with organized religion and it's hypocrisy, fine.  But if you want to trash the name of our Lord Jesus Christ than you either have never understood him or you have understood him and are so perverse as to hate him anyways.  Either way do not pretend to be our friend.  

Arthur
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