Womens' Role in the Church

[M2]

Ok Fair enough.

What do you think about women elders in the church?
The Baptist church has women elders.

Marcia

women elders are going to be there, whether they are recognized as such or not.

Bad male elders are a bad thing, bad women elders are a bad thing.  However, good women elders are a good thing.

Jezebel was NOT a good elder,  but I hear that Kay Smith is, even though she is not called one.....

Brent

OK. That helps. My 'old programming' kicks in and i have to re-learn almost everything.

The pastor gave this comment:
A good perspective that may help. This is a partial answer. We affirm the full giftedness of women in body life and beleive that is God's eternal plan.

Lord bless,
Marcia
Interestingly enough, the pastor did not give me the silent treatment.

[editor]

The pastor gave this comment:
A good perspective that may help. This is a partial answer. We affirm the full giftedness of women in body life and beleive that is God's eternal plan.

Lord bless,
Marcia
Interestingly enough, the pastor did not give me the silent treatment.

Sounds like a good guy to me.  However, I think you probably deserved the silent treatment....

Brent

[vernecarty]

However, I think we both know an example where a confused woman who imagines herself a spiritual guide and who influences young men in an improper way
Brent

Young men? I thought she had only one disciple...you mean there are more like that specimen?  


C& MA had a wild and vigorous debate about the definition of "elder authority" at General Council 2000. After the smoke had cleared, it was determined that the word "male" would be added to the descriptors of what a elder should be. I know for a fact that there are alliance churches with women elders.

Verne

[M2]

Sounds like a good guy to me.  However, I think you probably deserved the silent treatment....

Brent

Hey, don't forget that I tithe and therefore contribute to a portion of this guy's salary.

This would be a good challenge for our BB stats expert, golden. If there are x tithers out of the 600 attendees, and there are y salaried staff to a total of $z, then what is the %age of my tithe that goes towards Pastor A's salary.


I heard this joke recently told by one of the Pastors.

2 friends are in a small airplane and their airplane crashes onto a remote small island. One of the guys (A) sits down and calmly hangs around. The other (B) is frantic and paces around. B checks out the island and discovers that there is nothing to eat and no other inhabitants. A says "Well, I make $250,000 a week". B retorts "What good is $250,000 if you cannot spend it and cannot buy food with it on this island? How can you be so calm, don't you see we're going to die?" A replies "I make $250,000 a week." B says "Well that totally useless now!" A replies "I make $250,000 a week and I tithe, so my pastor will find me."

Lord bless,
Marcia

PS. On a side note, an open and honest query should merit an open and honest response. I do not know if Pastor A had to have a long consultation with Pastors B & C to even decide if he should reply to me in the first place. And then maybe arrange a meeting to discuss my question in order to come up with some 'party line' answer to me. Maybe he did, maybe he didn't, but he replied directly to me in a simple staightforward way. I did not feel that he is 'higher' because he is a leading..  oops sorry Pastor, and I am a mere attendee and a sister at that who could so easily be deceived as Eve was in the garden.

Also, Once bitten twice shy. I did not blindly follow Brent and Verne and MarkC. I checked out the BB and debated for 6 months before I CHANGED my mind re. assembly matters. Hence I queried the Pastor as I needed to understand his perspective. My Geftakys assembly background has given me a particular view/bent on the Scriptures, and I need to re-evaluate everything I have learned thus far.

Lord bless to all,
Marcia

[editor]

PS. On a side note, an open and honest query should merit an open and honest response. I do not know if Pastor A had to have a long consultation with Pastors B & C to even decide if he should reply to me in the first place. And then maybe arrange a meeting to discuss my question in order to come up with some 'party line' answer to me. Maybe he did, maybe he didn't, but he replied directly to me in a simple staightforward way. I did not feel that he is 'higher' because he is a leading..  oops sorry Pastor, and I am a mere attendee and a sister at that who could so easily be deceived as Eve was in the garden.

Also, Once bitten twice shy. I did not blindly follow Brent and Verne and MarkC. I checked out the BB and debated for 6 months before I CHANGED my mind re. assembly matters. Hence I queried the Pastor as I needed to understand his perspective. My Geftakys assembly background has given me a particular view/bent on the Scriptures, and I need to re-evaluate everything I have learned thus far.

Lord bless to all,
Marcia

The fact that each of us even makes the comparison between a real pastor of a real church and the Assembly is a sad commentary regarding what we were involved in.  

In the Assembly, Marcia's question would have been viewed as a challenge, and the fact that she asked it would have been discussed behind closed doors.  A more difficult question would have been sidestepped until the "brothers," had time to consult Mike or George----being careful not be influenced by the latter---and then an "offficial" response along with admonition would be given to her.

An example of what I am referring to is, "What happens to the money that we put in the box?"  "Well sister, it's used for the work, why do you care?  Is it your money or God's?"  The answer to this question is never given, and the financial practice, to this day, is a shrouded mystery.

In the case of the church that Marcia now attends, answers to difficult questions are given without consultation with headquarters, and the financial statement is available on paper, or in xcel format, at a moments notice.  When I was first out of the Assembly, these sorts of things shocked me in a good way.  Now that I am used to open, honest, honorable dealings, the way the Assembly operated disgusts me.

What the He#% was I thinking giving tens of thousands of dollars to these people?  Afterall, it really was God's money!  Why did I give it to George?

Interestingly, getting back on topic RE women in the church.  The Assembly took a hard line in word here.  "No women leaders.  Women can't read the words to a hymn they want sung, a brother must read them after she asks if it's OK to sing the hymn.  Women can't pray last or first in worship, can't lead chapter summary, etc.

Then, there was Betty.  Betty's authority went so far beyond even a liberal denomination's idea of women in the ministry it was amazing!

The above is exactly what Jesus meant when he said, "observe what they say, but do not do as they do, for the say and do not."  Except in this case, I don't totally agree with what they said about women.

Nevertheless, if a church wants to take the stand that women should not lead, teach, etc.  I have no problem with that at all.  God bless them for having convictions about the Word and sticking to them!   However, there is a big difference to being consistent regarding one's convictions with one's deeds, and doing what Betty Geftakys did.

Brent

[Helms]

I was involved with the Assembly for probably just long enough to turn my whole thought pattern upside down. I was asked recently to be a Children's Church teacher/helper by my pastor. I was terrified. My thoughts were so that I couldn't really honestly say no to my new leadership. They know what they are doing. Besdies, some women taught during vbs. I still hold to a lot of thoughts I think. But the whole point of the Holy Spirit is to be a patient teacher. Well at least I think so if you ask me. I would love nothing more than to not freak out when Pastor says let's turn to Acts for fear of the whole anchors thing. I would love to have not cared about anyone who I worshipped with when I was in the Assembly. Truth is the hardest thing about staying away was we were made so close by how strange everything sounded to those on the outside. Yet the biggest victory for me is to relax. I know God's going to work all things out for good for us. Sometimes it's a challenge to go to church. But I just remember I am not going to church for others. Or even to show that I still can. It's what God wants.

[M2]

I was involved with the Assembly for probably just long enough to turn my whole thought pattern upside down. I was asked recently to be a Children's Church teacher/helper by my pastor. I was terrified. My thoughts were so that I couldn't really honestly say no to my new leadership. They know what they are doing. Besdies, some women taught during vbs. I still hold to a lot of thoughts I think. But the whole point of the Holy Spirit is to be a patient teacher. Well at least I think so if you ask me. I would love nothing more than to not freak out when Pastor says let's turn to Acts for fear of the whole anchors thing. I would love to have not cared about anyone who I worshipped with when I was in the Assembly. Truth is the hardest thing about staying away was we were made so close by how strange everything sounded to those on the outside. Yet the biggest victory for me is to relax. I know God's going to work all things out for good for us. Sometimes it's a challenge to go to church. But I just remember I am not going to church for others. Or even to show that I still can. It's what God wants.

Yes, it will take some time for that old programming to to be ineffective.  But then maybe 'remnants' of it may remain until...  The healing process is an ongoing process.

I still do not like singing 'hymns and spiritual songs' without musical accompaniment.
I have to make a deliberate choice not to 'go with the flow' when I feel compelled to do so.  The compelling does not come from others, but is self-invoked.
I love going to church, probably because it is refreshing and very different from my assembly experience.  The first few months were very difficult, but now I feel that I am getting to know and appreciate my new church environment.
Most people have never heard of the Geftakys assemblies and we thought we were the keepers of 'the vision' and were top-notch.

Lord bless,
Marcia

[lenore]

Ok Fair enough.

What do you think about women elders in the church?
The Baptist church has women elders.

Marcia

MAY 19:11:50 PM:

HOT TOPIC:
In the Baptist Church I am a member in now.
The Fellowship is in hot debate over the roles of women in leadership roles.
We have deaconess, but in the roles of preparing the communion table,  (woman duties).
Our church is too small to have elders.

Woman deaconess are not part of the board.

We only just introduced women ushers.
We do have a woman Sunday School Superintendent.
Some church are okay with it and some arent.
Depends on the kind of Baptist Church.

THE QUESTION: I wouldnt mind a discussion on is??
IF WOMEN WERE AS EDUCTION DURING THE BIBLICIAL TIMES OF JESUS, & PAUL;  AS THEY ARE NOW.
WOULD SOME OF THE RESTRICTIONS PUT ON WOMEN IN THE BIBLE. BE THE SAME.
such as a woman to stay quiet, under the teaching of a male leadership.
What if the woman who is staying quiet knows more than the male that is teaching her.
JUST A THOUGHT!!!!.

[Helms]

I don't think God cares about what the society at the time the Bible was being inspired has a ton of what's in it. I think God was clearly capable of keeping His thoughts clear though society was shouting out another answer. Still I think that I'm not in favor of women being in position over men; even deaconesses. My church doesn't. Perhaps it's just more of the past teachings coming to haunt me. But I do think that the Bible is a historical document, sure.  However I don't think God changes His mind just because our culture wants him to.  As to what if the girl knows more than the guy - well, I don't really know what to say. But I never got the impression out of the church enviorment women weren't allowed to express their thoughts. Just not in church; and not to present it in a way that she's not willing to take the guys leadership. Yet, I am not sure you want to listen to me - I'm still learning.  As an example, Marcia, I am more comfortable with the whole no instrument thing. So take what I say with a grain of salt. None of us is perfect and knows it all. Sorry if I offended anyone!

[lenore]

I don't think God cares about what the society at the time the Bible was being inspired has a ton of what's in it. I think God was clearly capable of keeping His thoughts clear though society was shouting out another answer. Still I think that I'm not in favor of women being in position over men; even deaconesses. My church doesn't. Perhaps it's just more of the past teachings coming to haunt me. But I do think that the Bible is a historical document, sure.  However I don't think God changes His mind just because our culture wants him to.  As to what if the girl knows more than the guy - well, I don't really know what to say. But I never got the impression out of the church enviorment women weren't allowed to express their thoughts. Just not in church; and not to present it in a way that she's not willing to take the guys leadership. Yet, I am not sure you want to listen to me - I'm still learning.  As an example, Marcia, I am more comfortable with the whole no instrument thing. So take what I say with a grain of salt. None of us is perfect and knows it all. Sorry if I offended anyone!

Dont worry about expressing your opinions, and feeling honestly.
They are yours, and you  "have a right" to them
and to express them "isnt this what this B & B posting is for, to be able to express opinions and feelings without feeling guilty for doing so"

I glad you expressed your opinion on women in the roles with in the church.  I just wanted to get a subject going.?!!!
I thank you for your expression of the bible is not just a historical book.
I agree and I say amen to that. The bible is the living word of a living God. It is timely and speaks volumes to people, to where they are at with their walk with Christ.
So I am glad you are expressing.

I grew up in a Brethren church. This morning my mother reminded me of that, In the church she has choosen to
worship in with  my aunt. The bible studies these older women were attending. was being bombed with ideas and discussion that Jesus wasnt the Son of God and the Bible is only a story book, not the word of God.
Well , get the feathers up, on people who were raised in the brethren belief.  
My assembly experience was short and, lets just say short with a few special memories that is sweet.
But my main exposure to church was sunday school  and youth group , with in the Brethren setting.  My maternal Grandmother was Brethren.
I thank you for your expressing your feelings on music.
I like music with my singing.
I like clapping hands, but the fellowship baptist church I have choosen to worship Jesus in. Is very conservative.
There is nothing wrong with clapping your hands, after all God made those instruments, and our voices before
any other.
Dont forget, Psalms all those instruments used in Praising and worshipping God.
I am doing and practicing Sign Language during Sunday Morning Worship  singing time, ANd my voice
is a JOYFUL NOISE TYPE, so it is better that  the
piano, organ, guitar, sometimes a recorder/flute
and my hands in signing.  
And the voices of the congregation.
In my opinion, I have faith, God accepts this type of
worship, as a fragnance offering from his children in worshipping in thanksgiving and praise, raising our voices above the instruments in timely hymns, chorus and songs of praise.

Just wanted to say thank you for the expressing of your opinion and feelings. God speaks to each of us, and his timing will be his own and his teaching us will be what he has planned for each of us.
God will be with you, as you sort things out in your own heart, what is or is not acceptable for you.
The head covering was an issue with me at first.
I have made peace with God over this issue.
Certain issues, that does not depend upon our salvation, and our journey with him, can be debated,
and peace come between me and God to overcome.
just like the head covering, or music with or without instrument, women asssuming leadership roles , like deaconness, deacon, or elders etc.
If it doesnt affect the Bible truth, Jesus is the SOn of God, who came to earth as a human baby, to grow up into a man, with the purpose of offering up himself as
a living sacrifice for our sins., And if we call upon the name of the Lord we will be saved, and with our mouths and hearts, we confess we are sinners in need of forgiveness and confess with our mouths and believe in our Hearts that Jesus is Lord and Saviour, and has given us the gift of Salvation  as a free gift, and we have received it , we will have eternal life. In otherwords John 3:16.

And I hope you agree there is no harm in discussing certain topics , like women teachers, or exploring the cultural times of the bible.
It gives insight, helps us to research the bible as a living document. With real people who Jesus spoke to.
Real people followed him around, were so hungry for the words that he spoke, that they could wait until he recross the sea, and were waiting and welcoming him, The saught him out in every turn.
SO History comes to life within the Bible.
It is fun.  But I like biblical history. It bring the Bible
to life for me.  
That is me.
SO thank you for sharing < I thank you for allowing me to share with you.
Talk to you later.

[M2]

Just some thoughts out loud in response to Helms and Lenore.

I am still re-evaluating this women's role in the church thing and have not come to any definite conclusions.  Any church I attend, I will likely disagree with them on one point or another. e.g. infant baptism, or headcoverings, or musical instruments, or women elders, or...  But is it an issue worth dividing over?  E.g. if God is evidently working in their midst, then maybe I am the one who needs to re-think my theology.  The assembly lacked the message of God's grace, though it was correct on various doctrines so... it's onward forward.

Just curious Helms re.no instruments.  Is it because you believe it is a biblical principle, or it is just your preference?

Back on topic now.  In the NT there were prophetesses.  Rhoda was a door-keeper.  They met at Lydia's home and at Mary's home.  Priscilla and Aquila were involved in the 'work' of discipling and ministering.  etc.  And there is that verse that says, "There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free man, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus.(Gal 3:28 )".

Lord bless,
Marcia

[Helms]

I suppose my no insturnment thing really has to do with the fact I don't want to be distracted by the music than the lyrics. I know some people don't care and are fine with the whole thing. And that's alright; I'm not saying music is evil! It's just the same reason I sit in the second pew at church. I want to be sure I'm not distracted with who's there and not there. Or if so and so is sitting really close to so and so.  What a nice dress so and so has on! Boy, that brother is cute. You know? I want to be there focused on what Pastor is saying. And in the same way I guess I want to focus on the words I'm singing than the piano or what have you.
I suppose this is what made me so open to the Assembly lifestyle. There wasn't a whole lot of disorder and freedom. Which I mean and which I don't - if that makes any sense to anyone. I liked having a reason - a right way of doing things. It's really hard to live in a gray world when no one tells me what's right and wrong. I mean yeah there are some universal truths. But on the whole there is freedom in Christ. Which is what frightens me. I am always terrified which ever decision I make is the one that God frowns upon.
Don't get me wrong; my head knows that God isn't going to throw me into hell. I know Im saved and I was forgiven; if I come to him with more sin he just keeps cleansing away. I just want to get past this baby stage and be mature; you know? I guess my heart doesn't know yet how forvgiving and patient God is. Or maybe I'm just not patient enough with myself; I don't know.
I'm just curious if anyone else had this need for order when they entered the ASsembly. It's just time and again I feel somewhat foolish for joining and giving so much.
I worry sometimes if all that is going to go up in smoke when God judges our works. (I know that doesn't have anything to do with my salvation.) Because sometimes it was because I didn't want to get another consequence or I know somehow someone in the Assembly would find out that I didn't do my reading. (accountability, you know?)

[Helms]

Funny you should talk about signing; I do, too! And of course I do find myself at odds with myself on things. It's like there are three of me sometimes. There's the me who I was before, during, and after the Assembly. I wonder if anyone else goes through that too! I do also enjoy the fact that the psalms also talk about dancing - and David danced before the Lord. There are some things that don't give me a second thought. I'm slowly learning that salvation is above all the rest is just details. Not that details aren't imortant (I hope the former head of my house should hear me say that! lol) But they are last; the final touches that color. It's the difference between a dirt/gravel road and cement. They both get you the same place. Just one your car gets less dirty going on.
And as far as God accepting our worship. I think that perhaps there are many ways to worship. I am still working out the details on that thought. Like I know honest, saled churches can disagree about choice in music for example. Or raising/clapping of hands. I think the biggest part is it's God we are worshipping. God never seemed to show displeasure at sincere people trying to please him (not self.) If I'm wrong please tell me so. Faith is the victory. Not being able to follow commands. If anyone can follow that point.

[summer007]

Helms, I was just wondering how long were you in the Assembly? And how long have you been out??? I think the time frame would be helpful in trying to answer some of your questions and to share experiences on the subject. Thank-You.....Summer.........BTW....his Mercies are new every morning Great is His Faithfulness...Lam3.

[summer007]

Well I'll just guess you've recently left the Assm. Could be wrong. Ps.100 says "Make a Joyful noise unto the Lord ,serve the Lord with Gladness....And in John 4.God is seeking the True Worshippers to Worship Him in Spirit and in Truth.  I've been to all types of Worship (except people rolling in the isles) and I think its a matter of preference..I f you like raising your hands and singing or if your real conservative you may just sit quietly singing...Some get up and Dance around. In my church the Pastor's wife is a Co- Paster, yet she doe'snt get up and give the word she does Womans Ministry. My Sister's church has womans pastors and they too lead womans ministry which I think is appropriate. And once a month is a luncheon with a woman speaker. They are not leading the Men. I think the Assm mentality of legalism has put so many Head-Trips on people. After about 5, 10 to 20 years you'll lighten -up as far as trying to dissect every movement you make. That self-introspection where  your trying to stay a few steps ahead of whoever is going to question you next..(Great Liberty) Just a thought on your post...BTW...I sometimes feel like I've had 9 lives and 8 have nothing to do with the Assm. You can move on from the negativity that was embraced. I had to go when it started getting weird in the house I was in (a coupleshouse) prior to that I had good fellowship with the Sisters..Then things got strange really inreasonable and I knew I had to GO i was very alarmed and yet knew I could'nt confide in the Top Leadership or their would be major back-lash..how did I know this?  i just knew how the system operated intuitively you were never to break the code of silence unles your bags were packed to go!! Absolutly unbelieveable to me now that I subjected myself to this in my late teens,early twentys.