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Author Topic: Why Leaders Are Responsible  (Read 183229 times)
amycahill
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« Reply #165 on: August 11, 2003, 09:47:26 am »

A few weeks after GG's downfall, I attended the Fullerton prayer meeting.  It was not a regular meeting as they were explaining to the folks why they had excommunicated GG.  

I got up an said a few words.  After I talked about some corruption issues with GG, I said that "this is the fountain you've been drinking from for 30 years.  I can hear George talking through you. You need to get help from Christians outside the assembly."

What I meant was that GG had so inculcated his ideas, vocabulary, and practices that they were still thinking from WITHIN  the categories of those ideas.  Although the Assembly system was in meltdown, MENTALLY they were still in it!

Interestingly enough, I am 12 years out of assembly participation.  I have moved on and into a church that I personally believe in.  However, when this all hit, I found myself assailed by underlying assumptions I had no idea I still had, assumptions taught to me in the assembly.  I am struggling to get rid of them -- they are making a mess of my faith at the moment.
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amycahill
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« Reply #166 on: August 11, 2003, 10:53:04 am »

The Assembly discouraged people from being involved in other religious groups or going to other churches.  Why?  You might see the light of your freedom in Christ and your bondage to a manmade system that does not allow members to decide God's will for themselves.

I have to tell you something amusing.  I was in the Huntington Beach assembly, but at the time, lived closer to Placentia.  I used to erase the tapes on Saturday mornings to be re-used.  

Well, I wanted to sometimes go to the Placentia meetings.  After all, they were closer.  Harmless, right?

Earl Somerville, an LB at the time, told me I had to get permission to do THAT and that I was out of line for wanting to (gasp!) visit ANOTHER ASSEMBLY.

What a level of control! Smiley
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amycahill
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« Reply #167 on: August 11, 2003, 11:22:03 am »

Attending his workers’ conferences in Colorado every year

Do visit Colorado -- it's a nice place.  There's a huge Irish/Scottish festival coming up in September in Estes Park.

But no, not for workers' conferences.   Grin
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amycahill
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« Reply #168 on: August 11, 2003, 11:27:14 am »

I think Heidi's comments are remarkably insightful. I took a bit of heat on the other BB...

Where's the other BB?
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Heide
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« Reply #169 on: August 11, 2003, 09:32:15 pm »

Good Job Jack!!

I think the smell of sulfur is getting stronger at George's door!

Heide
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BenJapheth
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« Reply #170 on: August 14, 2003, 03:46:56 am »



Assembly Leadership and the Continuance of the Geftakys Assemblies
[/b]
by Chuck Miller


There has been any number of posts to various bulletin boards as well as to the www.GeftakysAssembly.com site concerning the Leading Brothers in Assemblies around the country.  Some of these men have "stepped down" publicly while  others, have simply assumed a position of non leadership (whether temporary or otherwise is yet to be seen).  Then there are some who have continued in their role as "leaders" on the basis of claiming or assuming non complicity with the events surrounding the "ex-communication" of George and David Geftakys.  I won't address any of my comments to those Assemblies who still receive George and refuse to hear against him.  They are more to be pitied than censured since they are wallowing in self-deception and God alone can reach them.  They are the blind leading the blind and will all fall into the pit.

In virtually none of these aforementioned scenarios has there been evidence of there being very much, if any,  consideration given to the scriptural qualifications for church leadership as outlined by Paul, Peter and Titus in their letters to the churches.

The question that each of these men should be asking themselves is, "What qualifications did I have for becoming a leader in the church of the Lord Jesus Christ?"

If we were to be honest,  the only qualification any of us had was that we were chosen by George Geftakys, according to his qualifications  for his church.  And George's qualifications were based upon a willingness to place oneself under his authority.  In some cases, such as my own, it was that, plus a matter of expediency in the process of George taking over an existing gathering of believers.  Since the little gathering in Omaha had been raised up in our home, as God had led, it would have been a bit cumbersome for him to have not included me in the ones he had selected for leadership in his newly attained "Assembly."  It was not a matter of spiritual maturity.  I was no more qualified to be a leader than were any of you.  I was, indeed, a leading brother in the church of George Geftakys, but I held no such distinction in the church of the Lord Jesus Christ.

But lest you might suppose that you were, nevertheless, spiritually mature even before being selected by George -- think about it - would a spiritually mature brother have been taken in by George's deceptive teaching about what came to be known as "church government?"  Would a spiritually mature brother remain silent when confronted with  unscriptural practices, double standards, and even blatantly evil conduct?  Would a shepherd of the flock stand by silently and tolerate the sheep being abused and lorded over by one who called himself "the Lord's Servant?"  Were we shepherds or mere hirelings, having been appointed by George, not Christ, to suit his purposes, not Christ's?  And weren't we at least a wee bit proud to have been placed above the rest of the saints?   And didn't we savour, at least a wee bit, being called "Leading Brother" even while knowing that Jesus abhorred titles?  Didn't we readily accept the deception that, having been chosen by George, we had therefore been chosen by God?  Didn't we accept the lie that, even if we were in error, we were "untouchable" and above reproof from any of the saints?  Spiritual maturity or spiritual blindness?   Were we in God's hand or Satan's?

I too "stepped down" as a leading brother, but spiritually, in God's eyes, I never had been a leader, so the public act was merely an inadvertent acknowledgement of what Christ had never ordained.   So it is with the rest of those whom George had designated for the title.  It's time to start being honest with yourself -- you were never qualified in accordance with Christ's standards,  and, perhaps, may never be.  I will say, however, that those who have "stepped down," either publicly or privately, have exhibited at least a small measure of maturity that Christ seeks for those in his church -- each and every member of His body.

To those who choose to remain in "leadership" positions, I would have to ask, "On what basis did you become a leader, and on what basis would you continue?"  On what basis did you promulgate the rationale of leaders being immune from criticism or reproof?  On what basis did you choose to ignore Paul's instruction, "Do not receive an accusation against an elder EXCEPT ON THE BASIS OF TWOP OR THREE WITNESSES.?" (1 Timothy 5:19)

An elder in the church of George Geftakys may have been justified in ignoring such instruction, but one in the church of the Lord Jesus Christ enjoyed no such privilege.

To those who are still gathering as an Assembly, nominally or otherwise, I would only suggest that you consider why it is that you are seeking?  What is it that binds you to this fraudulent church.   Why would you want to retain anything of the sterile "liturgy" (for that is exactly what it is) or the practices of the Geftaky's church.   Oh, I'm sure there will be some who will posture themselves on the timeworn cliche, "Don't throw the baby out with the bath water."   Have you considered that this baby was a child of the devil himself?

Were these scrupulously orchestrated meetings led by the Holy Spirit,  or were they orchestrated by Leading Brothers who acquiesced to the instruction to interject with a prayer when there were too many songs or to interject with a song when there were too many consecutive prayers?  Was it the Holy Spirit leading us to deny someone partaking of the Lord's supper when we deemed them as unworthy, based upon the standard of the church of George Geftakys?

Did Jesus attempt to reform the practices of the Jews in the synagogs? No -- he instituted the church under a new covenant.   Should we attempt to reform that which was never of God to begin with?   Can we, by any stretch of the imagination presume that God was "surely in our midst."   The George Geftakys Assemblies have defiled the testimony of the Lord Jesus Christ and for having been a part of it, you will have to bear a stigma with believers and unbelievers alike, perhaps for your entire life.

For those who continue to  meet, have you considered the testimony of the Lord Jesus Christ to unbelievers as well as other believers?  Is that of so little importance to you that you would consider continuing to meet in a manner that would even have the appearance of evil with outsiders? But rather than be dogmatic in asserting that Christ can't reform old Assemblies, let me pose a few questions to those who choose to attempt to do so.

Considering the only thing of importance -- the testimony of the Lord Jesus Christ:

Wouldn't it be better to err in exercising too much caution, than to err in assuming that you are now spiritually mature enough to discern the good from the bad?

Would you err by putting aside the old, and simply getting humbly before Him, whose church it is, and praying "Lord Jesus, we know nothing as we ought.  Please forgive us for our blindness and guide us and keep us from error as we study your word.  We desire nothing save pleasing you by
obedience to your word."

Would not Jesus honor such a prayer?  Would not the Holy Spirit reveal the truth to those who seek it with their whole heart?  Would there be some semblance's of the "old" that Christ would redefine and rightly establish?  I believe so.

Some would say, "But God hasn't led me to leave," or, "God hasn't led me to step down,"  To them I would ask, "What must God do to cause you to flee from the evil He has so blatantly exposed?  How much must He do to convince you that you are not, and have never been, an elder in His church?  What excuse will you give at His Judgement Seat?  Will you try to deceive your own children by refusing to acknowledge before them, your own complicity in the sorry events that led to the exposure of the entire ungodly system that you helped to perpetuate?

We have a merciful and forgiving God who forgives those who repent.  Will you do so today?

_____________________________________________

Short Bio on Chuck Miller
[/b]


Chuck and Mary Ann Miller and there nine children were a Roman Catholic family in Omaha, Nebraska. In 1974 at the age of 47 Chuck became a Christian. Most of his children followed him into the faith and very soon a small church began meeting in their home. This gathering was soon taken over by George Geftakys and his disciples.

George Geftakys horrifically split the Miller family in 1978 and wrested control of the church that met in there home. After twenty-five years of estrangement and division the family has been experiencing the Lord's reconciliation  and restoration since the eventful days of early 2003.

Chuck is married to Mary Ann and is the father of Pat Mathews and father-in-law to Wayne Mathews, father of Chris Sjogren and father-in-law to Mark Sjogren, father of Becky Cohen and father-in-law to Wes Cohen, father of Nancy Lehmkuhl and father-in-law to Jeff Lehmkuhl, father of Mike Miller and father-in-law to Carolyn Miller, father of Ann Vanasse and father-in-law to Chuck Vanasse, father of Tim Miller and father-in-law to Monica Miller, father of Bill Miller and father-in-law to Karen Miller, father of Ed Miller. Chuck and Mary Ann are grandparents to 34 grandchildren.




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« Reply #171 on: August 27, 2003, 01:58:03 am »

Just out of curiosity...

Speaking of "leaders", whatever became of Jim Hayman and  Dan Notti?
Were they around when this all broke or did they leave before.

Luckily, I was usually never  forced to stick around for the Sunday PM meetings.  The exception was when one of these two clowns or one of George's other henchmen came through and was giving some sort of special meeting.  I always hated when people like this would come to town.
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« Reply #172 on: August 27, 2003, 02:47:05 am »

Just out of curiosity...

Speaking of "leaders", whatever became of Jim Hayman and  Dan Notti?
Were they around when this all broke or did they leave before.

Luckily, I was usually never  forced to stick around for the Sunday PM meetings.  The exception was when one of these two clowns or one of George's other henchmen came through and was giving some sort of special meeting.  I always hated when people like this would come to town.

Jim and Dan both work at AMR, in Brea, CA.  Dan was the first LB to "step down."  As far as I know, Jim still goes to the Fullerton meetings, although he sits in the back, etc.  I could be wrong about Jim.

However, neither of them are expending any energy towards correcting the damage they did with all their years of service to George and Betty.  Both of them promoted the group all across the US, and in Europe.  A little zealous repentance would be in order, but we can't expect too much from men like this.

After all, they were geftakysservants for a very long time.

Brent
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vernecarty
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« Reply #173 on: August 27, 2003, 08:12:00 pm »

One of the clearest signs that something was rotten in Denmark was the way so many of the men in leadership were loosing their children to the world. It was enough to make some of us conclude we would never be put in that position. I heard from several folk that Jim Hayman's family fell on really hard times and that he even suffered from some mental instability. Can anyone confirm this? I heard for example that he would stand up in meetings and prophesy about the destruction of Southern California...I know several of the men George recruited came from a background of drug abuse...
Verne
« Last Edit: August 27, 2003, 08:14:19 pm by vernecarty » Logged
Oscar
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« Reply #174 on: August 27, 2003, 08:51:38 pm »

Verne,

I was told by a "recent leaver" that Jim Hayman had become convinced that some really bad end-time things were about to happen.  
He, according to this person, suddenly packed up his family and moved back to Illinois.
On another occassion, I'm not clear which happened first, he took off for Illinois by himself.

What I was told was that El Supremo, The Great Dispenser of Spiritual Light, ie, George Geftakys, forced Jim to  publicly repent on two occassions.

The charge was "false prophecy".   Apparently this is a new sin.

However, it seems that El Supremo has never repented of having brayed repeatedly that "The 1980's is the decade of the Lord's coming".  This went on for over 10 years.

My guess is that GG invented the need for Jim to publicly repent in order to thoroughly discredit him before the church, so that he couldn't be a threat to The Great Source of All Truth.

Seems to me that the only penalty in the Bible for false prophecy was getting stoned.  By the way, did they get stoned before or after the prophecy?  Wink

This whole business illustrates the dangers of the type of subjective mysticism taught and practiced by GG's flock and other groups influenced by the Deeper Life movement.

God bless,

Thomas Maddux
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« Reply #175 on: August 27, 2003, 10:09:07 pm »

Verne,

I was told by a "recent leaver" that Jim Hayman had become convinced that some really bad end-time things were about to happen.  
He, according to this person, suddenly packed up his family and moved back to Illinois.
On another occassion, I'm not clear which happened first, he took off for Illinois by himself.

What I was told was that El Supremo, The Great Dispenser of Spiritual Light, ie, George Geftakys, forced Jim to  publicly repent on two occassions.

The charge was "false prophecy".   Apparently this is a new sin.

However, it seems that El Supremo has never repented of having brayed repeatedly that "The 1980's is the decade of the Lord's coming".  This went on for over 10 years.

My guess is that GG invented the need for Jim to publicly repent in order to thoroughly discredit him before the church, so that he couldn't be a threat to The Great Source of All Truth.

Seems to me that the only penalty in the Bible for false prophecy was getting stoned.  By the way, did they get stoned before or after the prophecy?  Wink

This whole business illustrates the dangers of the type of subjective mysticism taught and practiced by GG's flock and other groups influenced by the Deeper Life movement.

God bless,

Thomas Maddux

Jim Haaman packed up and left for Illinois not once but twice! because of all of those frightening end of times scenarios!! What a complete and total Jack #SS!!!

Phewwwwwwwwwwww!!!! I am so relieved that none of those scary "end of times things actually happened"....

I do remember growing up in the assembly in the 80's, and hearing George preach on the end of times, the rapture, the mark of the beast etc...He would say things like "in the end of times there will be "earthquakes, wars, floods, catastrophes, etc" and point to the current "earthquakes, wars, floods, catashtrophes, etc." that were taking place as evidence that it was the end of times.  Frankly, when I was between the ages of 6-8 years old, that was kind of scary...But then I got a little older, and realized that during every generation throughout the history of mankind that there were "earthquakes, wars, floods, catastrophes, etc" and that this loud, belligerent, Greek piece of crap was full of hot air and should go stuff himself with some more gyros...

Just another fond memory of assembly life...I sure hope for Jim Haymans sake that
something catastophic - like a three car pile up on the Southern California interstate doesn't occur and force him to run off to Illinois for fear that this is a sure fire sign that the end of times is near...

Speaking of signs of the end of times...I wonder if "Whataburger" would close down...Would Tim Geftakys view this as a catastrophic occurence and preach that this to was a dead giveaway that the end of times was near...
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James
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« Reply #176 on: August 28, 2003, 12:18:54 am »

A little zealous repentance would be in order, but we can't expect too much from men like this.

Brent

What is considered to be evidence of "zealous repentance?"
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editor
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« Reply #177 on: August 28, 2003, 12:39:02 am »

A little zealous repentance would be in order, but we can't expect too much from men like this.

Brent

What is considered to be evidence of "zealous repentance?"

Is this a serious question?

In other words, are you really wanting information on what constitutes repentance?  Or are you asking the question in a manner as if to say, "who are you to determine whether these men have repented or not!"

Brent

You might try reading an article titled, Biblical Repentance, by Rob Kazarinoff.  It's on the GA.com website.  http://geftakysassembly.com/Articles/FinalWeeks/BiblicalRepentance.htm
« Last Edit: August 28, 2003, 12:42:23 am by Brent A. Tr0ckman » Logged
James
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« Reply #178 on: August 28, 2003, 12:54:06 am »

According to the article, in what way have these guys not repented? Yes that is a serious question.
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« Reply #179 on: August 28, 2003, 01:21:21 am »

According to the article, in what way have these guys not repented? Yes that is a serious question.

OK then....

Repentance mean both a change in behavior and a change of heart.  My idea of Zealous Repentance comes from this passage:

2 Cor 7:10  For godly sorrow produces repentance [leading] to salvation, not to be regretted; but the sorrow of the world produces death.  11  For observe this very thing, that you sorrowed in a godly manner: What diligence it produced in you, [what] clearing [of] [yourselves], [what] indignation, [what] fear, [what] vehement desire, [what] zeal, [what] vindication! In all [things] you proved yourselves to be clear in this matter.

Zeal, in the passage quoted above, means this:

2205 zelos {dzay'-los}
from 2204; TDNT - 2:877,297; n m/n
AV - zeal 6, envying 5, indignation 2, envy 1, fervent mind 1,
jealousy 1, emulation 1; 17
1) excitement of mind, ardour, fervour of spirit
1a) zeal, ardour in embracing, pursuing, defending anything
1a1) zeal in behalf of, for a person or thing
1a2) the fierceness of indignation, punitive zeal
1b) an envious and contentious rivalry, jealousy


So, here is my observation.  Leading brother X, who represents the vast majority of leader/worker/itinerate geftakysservants, for years zealously taught and promoted the ministry of George Geftakys.  So dedicated were they that many of them lost their firstborn children in the process.  All of them shunned ex-members, who actually tried to tell the truth, and habitually defended George's behavior, going so far as to call him a godly man.

Leaders of current assemblies have the audacity to say things like, "we weren't that influenced by George.  We never followed him."  In saying this, they demonstrate that they hold those they rule over in contempt, or that their own intellectual capacity is so diminished due to their servitude in George's corrupt organization that they are no longer able to discern right from wrong, and project this ineptitude onto others.

Leaders who have stepped down are in a different category.  The reason they stepped down, for the most part, (there are a few exceptions) is that they knew something was wrong and that they could no longer be a part of it.  This is the correct thing to do, and they are to be commended for taking this initial---and imperative--- step of repentance.  However, years of support and promotion of George's ministry, in the postition of leadership and "worker," means years of false teaching and misplaced loyalty.  In addition, the plain, undeniable fact is that MANY people were hurt by the leaders' actions and inactions.  

Repentance, in this case, includes cessation of behavior(not acting like a leading brother) and change of heart. (Not excusing their actions done while acting as leading brothers)

Zealous repentance, according to the passage quoted above, means public correction, and public change of behavior in a clear, exercised and unmistakeable manner, for the purpose of correcting error and/or false teaching.

While some of these ex-leaders may have done so in private conversations, the vast majority of people have no idea where they stand, and have certainly seen or heard nothing that would in any way be mistaken for zealous repentance.

These guys are not zealously repenting, period.  If they showed as much zeal for saying, "We led God's people astray by doing ______" as they did when they taught "Conflict Under Two Trees,"  or "Study Guide for Testimony To Jesus," then things would be quite different.

If you want to see some examples of diligent repentance,  look at what Tom Maddux, Steve Irons, and Mark Campbell have written.  They were all ex leader-worker geftakysservants, and they have zealously, clearly repented.

What was the last thing you read from Dan Notti, Jim Heyman, Timothy Geftakys, etc.?

Now, George is starting up the money machine in their own backyards, and these guys are doing nothing about it.  Zeal is not a word that can be used to describe their actions towards what they served so diligently for 20-30 years of their lives.  A much better word would be apathy, or lethargy.

"What lethargy, what apathy, what incomplete clearing of yourselves it produced in you....."

I'm not asking them to be as zealous as I am, I did it for conscience sake.  I am only hoping and praying that they have actually repented.  It certainly doesn't fit what the Bible says about repentance.

Brent Tr0ckman

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