AssemblyBoard

Just curious:

1.  Does anyone besides me think that the title "Out of Control Poster" casts a negative image?  Especially so as pertains to a moderator such as Tom M.

2.  In consideration of recent events on the board, should we drop the "Anything goes, no editing, no deleting" from our:
                                 
 ???al ???

My personal opinion on it is that "out of control Poster" keep us from taking ourselves too seriously.  Afterall, a strong case could be made that we spend too much time here....

Personally, I am against editing/deleting, in all but the most extreme cases.  I trust Tom and Mark to know when that may be.

I could care less about my image.  People who are concerned about their image bore me, frankly.  I like a person who isn't afraid to have ideas, state them, and act upon them.  I know who I am, and if others have a wrong idea, so be it.

Brent

Brent,

Not sure how you mean your last statement (above) to fit into the discussion.  The only image I'm concerned about is that of our Lord Jesus Christ, who we represent. 

Re: Q#1, I can see your point & hope it works in that way; in Q#2, I, too, trust our moderators' judgment, but if we say "Anything goes, no editing, no deleting" and then disallow, edit and delete, we have lied, so why not just stop saying it & thus remove any grounds for such a claim?  IMO adding the words, "except in the most extreme cases" would be too vague.

In Christ,
al

Me-thinks you still have some of the Leading Brother left in your system eh Al??  :)
I've noticed your comments on various threads and it gives me that impression.

Truth that cannot stand the test of criticism is not a truth worth holding on to.
I'm not saying to criticize for the sake of criticizing, but we are all adults here.

I do appreciate your sense of humor. It's nice to have good chuckle now and then.
Blessings,
Marcia

P.S.
We used to tease (Will Jones will remember this) a particular LB here in Ottawa.  When a long weekend was looming on the horizon and people were making their plans for a trip away from the sanctuary of the assembly, the LB would caution "There's a long weekend coming up saints.  Don't fall away from the Lord now."  Not exactly, but Will did this funny skit once; I missed it, but and I heard all about it.

Watched MIB II this evening (again).  We need one of the neutralizers. :)

Marcia

Marcia,

Assuredly yes, far more than I wish! :'(  When I see it, I endeavor to deal with it.  But I don't always see it.  I have that uncanny (but scripturally verifiable) ability to look beyond the plank in my eye, directly at the speck in the eye of another.

General statements, such as yours above, help a little, as they are humbling and lead to earnest, seeking prayer.  But I would be indebted for specifics re: to which of my posts you refer, and what about them exhibits a wrong spirit.  Whether you post them or send them privately I leave to your discernment.  If you are uncomfortable in being more specific, I understand.  Above all else, I request your prayers and those of our readers that I will understand what I must do to be rid of wrong thinking and wrong speaking.


I honestly don't understand your point in saying these things, which I read to be directed to me.  I suspect it is quite clear to others on the board.  Here again, I would appreciate your explanation if you wouldn't mind.  I do not ask so that I may contend with you or attempt to justify myself, but that I may understand and be healed.


I do appreciate being numbered among the adults, although sometimes I give myself cause to wonder... :-\

Whatever you choose to do (BTW, the invitation is open to all), I thank you.

In Christ,
al

March 7th:

Having been ill for the last week, where sitting at the computer screen was a viritually impossibility, I have missed the flow of conversations.

To answer you first question.  Does the title of OUT OF CONTROL POSTER have an negative .

No Al.  THE OLD ;) CONTROL POSTER HAS NO NEGATIVE ASPECT.

Seriously. No... even if I wasnt try to tease you. 
Look at my numbers I have been only at this since May 5th 2004. 
This is a safe haven to verbally express your opinion, as far as I am concern, if we are not directly intentionally hurting another.  I enjoy coming here and having a place to write.
It is a place of Christian fellowship, a place to learn, a place to vent, a place to share and be encouraged. etc.

For the OLD part  ;) ;) well......... :-X

Lenore

This statement is an example of why the title "out of control poster," is needed.  You take this, and yourself WAY, WAY too seriously.

Since you asked Marcia for specifics, I am going to assume that it's OK for me to offer some as well.

Jesus, if He were born into our age, would have been a guy who used power tools, sweated, and ate off the roach coach more often than not.  He was a carpenter, right?  He had sawdust in His hair, and smelled like sweat and dirt.  Furthermore, He must have heard plenty of choice language, as construction guys have always been that way.  People who do hard work, especially for those who would rather pay than sweat, have always had this kind of man's man attitude.  Have you ever spent any time on a job site with a framing crew? 

So, if you want to present a combed hair, mild speeched, image conscious Jesus, you will run into trouble.  He wasn't that sort of guy at all.  He knew how to use physical violence when needed, and He also verbally cursed the namby pamby image conscious pharisees.  He also stated opinions that were contrary to the conventional wisdom, and ridiculed His opposition at times.

Yes, He was also meek, lowly and compassionate, but that doesn't downplay what I mention above.

I totally reject the notion that "moderating" our speech here will improve the image of "our Lord Jesus Christ, who we represent."  Most carpenters don't respect mealy mouthed pencil pushers telling them they are uncivilized, because they like to ride motorcycles and shoot guns.  Jesus was this type of guy.  Afterall, He was a carpenter from Nazareth, which is like saying He was from Kingman Arizona, or Tyler Texas, or something like that.  He wasn't a Harvard grad, and He didn't get seasick either.  He was a real man.

If anything, issuing statements like the one you did HURTS Christ's image If we took you seriously, then  only castrated, polite, passive, non-violent men could represent Christ. He was nothing like that, at all.  Like C.S. Lewis says, regarding Aslan;  "Afterall, He is not a tame lion."

So, your statement, in which you assure me that the only image you are concerned about is "our Lord Jesus Christ," strikes me as being full of hot, perfumed, spring scented de-oderized air.  It comes off as overly pious, and rank with the gentle disdain of a person who is too worried about how others perceive their spirituality.  It also suggests that those who disagree with you aren't as concerned for "our Lord Jesus Christ."  I think it's a substantial amount of postmasticated bovine ruminate.

Bottom line?  Let people say what they want, and mean what they say.  That way we know who they are, and they know who we are.  I'd rather have 100 David Mauldins here, than 2 passive combed hair, popular-author's-workbook sunday school types.

Stand up and say what you mean, and let others do the same.  No editing or deleting, unless it gets really, really bad.  Leave that up to Tom, Mark and Brian.

Brent

On Edit, P.S.

Al, I'm not going to pray for you much.  I will a little, I promise.  However, I know that in a short amount of time I'll be worrying about other stuff.  So don't count on my prayers to help you snap out of it.  Instead of some impotent prayer, I'll do what I think will help more.  I'll tell you straight.  You did ask for it, so take it as an answer to prayer.  I'm not aware of a time when prayer completed a homework asignment, or mowed the lawn.  In the same way, I'm not sold on the idea that praying for you, and neglecting to slap you upside the head when needed is an effective, loving thing to do.

Eat some red meat and clear your mind.

Er...that would be a N-E-U-R-A-L-I-Z-E-R, I think...
Verne

I wonder if their robes had pockets for their Marlboro's, unless Lydia stiched purple t-shirts with sleves for rolling up the packs, while they worked.   ;D


BRENT'S REPLY TO MY PURPLE T-SHIRT RESPONSE ABOVE (How did you do this?):
Pretty funny!  Nevertheless, I wonder about stuff like that.  He did make really awesome wine.  I've learned a few things about wine, living in wine country as I do.  One of them is that really good red wine has a high alchohol content.  Makes you wonder about what kind of wine Jesus made?

Anyhow, I really think that the milktoast, wuss image that is portrayed of Christ and christian men is pathetic.

Brent

Brent,

     Thank you-- point(s) taken.  I appreciate your honesty (presuming that you are serious, and I am not just misinterpreting some of your "irony" ;D).  I have little to say in response, the emphases if not the spirit of your post being pretty much on the money (with the exception that what you interpret as castration is simply the exercise of reserve).

     Upon your confession of being a worrier who considers his own prayers "impotent" in spite of all the positive we are taught about prayer in the scriptures, I happily release you from any obligation to pray for me, as it would be to no purpose.

     I certainly do, gratefully, take your post as an answer to my own prayer.  It has already begun to help me.  I have never asked nor expected to be spared a "slap upside the head" or a sound shaking, whether or not it is deserved (in this case I warrant it was deserved).  If God is for us, we need not fear what man may do to us.  
     Besides, as you point out, it gives everyone the opportunity to "know who you are"-- we are always in need of examples to show us how "real men" are to behave, as outlined in the book of... er... ah... Brent?  All those Bible  passages about kindness, meekness, gentleness, longsuffering, etc. are no doubt just there to occupy the minds of those who lack the chutzpah to fulfill the great commission to go into all the world and exude tough love. ***IRONY ALERT!!!

---

Marcia and all,

     Your commentary re: my LBness is still invited.  Don't worry about my answering you as above-- that was in response to special invitation.

     My personal opinion of being an LB:  In my own case, it was WB (Wanna Be).  I was never a "certified" LB, but always on probation, to see if I could develop into a "real" LB.  There were many bros who were in the WB category even though they were not in the LB inner circle.  The competition never ended to get accepted into the elite.  Many never made it, for a strange variety of reasons, and some no doubt became bitter and jealous over the issue.
     LBs were constantly under the gun, and although (at least in my day) I think most if not all had a genuine desire to serve Christ, we seldom if ever had the combination of time and energy to seriously consider what that might mean beyond the parameters of serving the ministry.  It was, at least for me, a hellish existence in which I felt trapped.
     Nonetheless, I was fully engaged in the Geftakys political structure, and guilty of all manner of wrongness and sin against God's people.  It surely left a mark, and any help you can provide me in getting rid of that will be appreciated.

In Christ,
al

this is progress Al.

Keep it up.  Also, just for clarification, I never said my prayers were impotent.  I merely pointed out the fact that prayer for "this" was impotent.  Shall we edit or delete people's words in order to keep up Christ's image?  Do you stand by your earlier ideas, or do you sidestep them in order to weakly protest my definition of "real men," and the "spirit" of my post?

You're almost there, don't stop now.

Brent

Brent,

Your condescension is truly touching (NOT).  If I had any idea what your latest post is supposed to mean, I might attempt to reply to it.  My post was an honest statement of my views, not meant to be a point-for-point, tit-for-tat rebuttal.  You had touched on some serious matters in a way that I needed to hear, and I am grateful to God for it.  But I don't agree with your general ideas of what Christian life is all about, and have no intention of debating you on that stage.

You said "I never said my prayers were impotent.  I merely pointed out the fact that prayer for 'this' was impotent."  Your idea and mine of what "this" is must be poles apart.

You also said "Do you stand by your earlier ideas, or do you sidestep them in order to weakly protest my definition of 'real men,' and the 'spirit' of my post?"  I don't know to which "earlier ideas" you refer.  If you will state specific questions, I will attempt to answer appropriately, but I see no purpose to rehashing everything I've said on this thread in hopes of saying whatever it is you want to hear.  As for "real men" and the spirit of your post, I said what I meant & meant what I said (ironically a phrase I recall GG enjoying frequent use of)-- If you consider my statements weak, ask me what you want to know & I'll try to provide a reasonable response.  I hope to have got beyond rising to the bait of a vague "Stand forth and give account for yourself."

Your application of "Shall we edit or delete people's words in order to keep up Christ's image?" eludes me completely-- to what does it refer?

In Christ,
al

P.S.-- If any of us are going to edit or delete at any time for any reason, then saying we will not is a bold-face lie.

P.S.#2-- Your "postmasticated bovine ruminate" is a literary jewel!  If it is copyrighted, I hereby request your permission to use it occasionally! ;)

Al,

You're an idiot.  You know what I'm talking about, and I know that you know that I know that you know what I'm talking about.  Don't play dumb.

Also, you're hardly grateful for the "serious" matters I brought up.  Don't pretend piety, it's sickening.  The fact is you don't like what I said, or is it that you don't understand it?  Either way, don't act all spiritual about it. 

You try to sound so lofty and erudite, but it doesn't work.  Also, it's not a Bold faced lie, about editing and deleting.  There is a user agreement, is there not?

Just be honest, Al.  Quit trying to play the part with posts, of all things.  It's a BB, that's all.

You most certainly do not have my permission to use my clever Bovine byproduct phrase.

Brent 

I don' t want to meddle, but I am going to repeat something  said on the BB awihile back.
The minute you begin to take yourself more seriously than other people do, you are in trouble.
We have seen quite a few examples of this recently.
I got an e-mail from somebody chastising me for claiming in a post that just because I said I carried a feather in private (as opposed to a sledge-hammer in public) did not mean I was a "girlie-man".
You will remember the context of that particular charge.
I PMd the individual and said for heaven's sake, it was a joke!.
 I got a message back informing me that by saying that I had insulted this person's intelligence!
At that point I gave up...can't win...
Verne

This is the first time that you have said that you were "'never a "certified" LB'.  This quote and many other references, ie the fact that you had a 'training home' led me to believe otherwise.



Brent has explained it Brent-style, and there really isn't anything to add.

In the past at least a couple of other posters have mentioned that when you make comments like "Christ is the answer" it doesn't really help with the discussion.

Also your worry about details and concern that we will fall away from the Lord if we discuss certain topics is what I was referring to re. LBisms.  It might help if you explained to us "adults" why &/or what rather than just tell us "don't do that brethren".  Let us make up our own minds.

Hope that helps.
Marcia

According to some, one of whom I believe Al is,  If we always discuss things in a safe manner, and sidetep conflict by asking for people to pray, or sidestep those who direct something at us by asking them if they have prayed first....

or by attempting to coerce people into silence by saying,  "In the interest of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, I ask that we please refrain from the tone, brethren.  What will others say of our Glorious Lord and Savior Jesus Christ?" Well, it makes me sick.  Really, I am disgusted by this sort of thinking.

Let's retrace how this got started.  Al suggested that "out of control poster" might be inappropriate, especially for a moderator.  He then went on to suggest that more editing and deleting might be in order, on account of some vague idea about Christian testimony.  When pressed, he played his trump card,  "I am concerned about the image of our Lord Jesus Christ."

What a crock.  It's good to not take ourselves too seriously, which is why it has been "overcoming poster," or "out of control poster."  It's fun and healthy.  As for editing, there has been almost none of it to speak of, as is fitting. 

Anyhow, to confuse these non-issues with the testimony of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, King of Kings, Lord of Lords, from Whom the whole family in Heaven is named, is silly.  It's a bulletin board.  It's a place to have a public discourse.  Don't take it too seriously, otherwise we'll have leading brothers and doorkeepers on the BB.  How stupid would that be?

Al, spend more time trying to say something of substance rather than monitor the tone of everyone else and worry about image.  You are the Kofi Annan of this BB, except that you have no power.  Knock it off.

Brent

One of the most common comments I get when people who do not know me well find out I am a Christian is:

"But you don't seem religious!"

I have learned to take it as a compliment.

Nothing turns off the unsaved more that pious, sanctimonious and pseudo-religious chatter.
I know those who engage in it think that it soemhow makes them seem more spiritual.
The truth of the matter is that it is doubly offensive to those who are serious about their faith and do not need to be lectured about defending Christ's honor and the like.
It is particularly condescending when you are talking to a group of fellow Christians.
I know I have my own problems.
One of them is not assuming that those reading my posts are so completely clue-less that I have to keep a pacifier and a bib at the ready. That's all we are saying Al. Don't be so preachy O.K?
Starting a thread about a light-hearted designation of overly productive posters being something that anyone other than you would take issue with is I am afraid quite revealing my friend...
Verne

Huh?!!!!!!!

Brent, I forgot to thank you for that one... Not too often I get to do something I really enjoy & say "Dr.'s orders!"


On the first point, why state the obvious?  Everyone who knows me already knows I'm an idiot, and those who are getting to know me at least suspect it by now.  It's stated in the icon next to my every post, for crying out loud!

Point two, where do you come up with the unmitigated gall to suggest I'm playing?!


Brent, you don't know a fraction of what you appear to think you know, and you certainly don't know me.  I have nothing to hide and no reason to lie.  My life is an open book-- want to know something about me?  Ask a specific question.  But none of your vague, subject-to-interpretation sucker-punches, designed to draw someone out where you can take potshots at him.


Further evidence that you don't know me, or what you're talking about.  I meant exactly what I said.  If you doubt it, why not ask me to explain instead of insulting me by calling me a liar.  Jesus is a real man.  You are just a macho bully.


This point I readily concede.  I had frankly forgot completely about the user agreement.  I still think the claim is deceptive & ought not be stated as it is, but you have your legal out, so I'll drop it.


Brent & all, I am as honest with all of you as I am with myself.  If I am dishonest, it is because I am self-deceived.  This is no cop-out-- I have had a challenge my whole life of trying to know whether or not I am being truthful with myself.  Those of you to whom this problem has never occurred may doubt me, and I can't blame you for it-- It must seem to you a very weird claim.  Just thank God you don't have to deal with it!  

This is one of the reasons I request prayer.  I am not asking God to come & do something for me so that I won't have to.  I am desperately in need of wisdom and understanding.  I read & study the Word, but unlike many I do not harbor the hope that I can understand the scriptures without the enlightenment of the Holy Spirit-- or rightly understand anything else, for that matter.  I don't ask or hope that He will do my thinking or make decisions for me, but it is scriptural to pray for His guidance in life and to expect it in hope and act upon that hope by faith.  

I do not believe in leading separate religious and secular lives.  If I am a Christian, it is because I was bought with a great and terrible price, and I am no longer my own.  Those who think that the purpose of salvation is to add a dimension of enjoyment and prosperity to the life they were already leading have missed the point of the gospel.


Now THAT's just plain mean!

---

Verne,

Your comments are unwelcome on this thread unless you have read the book! ;D

---

Marcia, you said:

Please forgive me if I have caused you to have the wrong impression.  For all practical purposes, I was an LB.  I was in the LB meetings, was expected to function as an LB, was known to the assembly as an LB.  But GG held his final approval over my head as a threat, I suppose to better control me.  Even Tom Maddux, probably my closest bro & confidant, was surprised to find out after several years of this situation.  I don't know whether GG used the tactic on anyone else, but I'm sure it made it much easier to explain my absence when he "let me go."


The question to me is: is it true?  I believe it is, and that the Word of God, ministered in truth and love, will bear fruit.  I don't always do it right, but if I wait until I'm perfect, I won't be of much use in this life.  (Brent, that's a perfect straight-line for you to capitalize upon!)  Anyway, I think I've been delivered from that particular phrase for some time, and I try to be more constructive and clear in my comments now.


What you describe is actually one of my pet beefs about what others do.  I am unaware of having done it myself.  I don't doubt your word, but it would help immensely if you could direct me to some examples of my saying "don't do" something without explaining why.  My posts are certainly always open to discussion & I hold no position of authority or control hereabouts, so I don't see how I am not letting anyone make up your own minds...


It does, indeed, as it gives me some direction in which to move, but I really hope you won't stop with what you've given me so far.  Same goes for all BBers.

---

You may be right about everything & I may be 100% wrong, but I'm not learning much about myself from hostility & insults, although it does give me insight into those who dish it out.

I do  not believe I take myself seriously at all.  In fact, were it not that Christ died for me as well as for others, I would consider myself a complete joke.  I am pathetic.  Apart from Christ, I have absolutely nothing!  So jokes at my expense are no insult to me.

But I do take the gospel of Christ very seriously and, because of that, I take everyone else seriously.  This doesn't mean that I can't share laughs with you all, as I think most of you realize.  But when I think there is something that needs said, I say it.  If you think I'm wrong, for goodness' sake speak out!  Don't hope it will all just go away, building up resentment in the meantime.  My personal feelings are not to be spared, no matter how considerate you may be toward others.  Please pray for me & talk to me!.  

I couldn't care less whether my attitude appears pious to others.  My relationship with Christ is all that matters to me-- everything else depends upon that.  If it makes me appear to you to be "falsely pious," I don't know what to tell you-- I'm not interested in my reputation; maybe it's you who has an issue...

I wish you all only the richest blessing of God in Christ, whether you believe me or not.

In Christ,
al

It's just IRONY, Matt.  No foul.

al

     Oh, and he does have power?

     Anyway, you're wrong.  It's "Coffee Anon," a recovery program for caffeine addicts, and now that you've outed me, I'm no longer "anon."

Thanks a big gooey bunch!

In general, the early S.F. Valley, being somewhat isolated, tended to be less strict than Fullerton.  The greatest strictness was actually in Al's house, because he took his job seriously while not knowing what he was doing.  He was probably kicked out because of his narrow-mindedness.  He was too serious; his inflexibility of thinking was probably seen as insubordination by George, so that he ended up being kicked out.  The ironic thing is that he suffered the same rejection as leaders who consciously opposed George.

It was in that house that Doug Large smashed his alarm clock, because it went off 15 minutes too early.  It was also in that house that Pete L's alarm would go off, and I would take the folded blanket from the chair between the beds and throw it at him so that he would wake up and shut off his alarm, and then he would go back to sleep again.  (I'm intentionally leaving out his full last name since he most likely doesn't want fame on the BB.  There were two Pete's in the Valley.)  If I remember correctly, I think that it was while living in that house that I caught pneumonia from going to the Wednesday Van Nuys Blvd. cruise-night outreach, when it was unusually cold.

I used to have a 1973 VW bus, and usually had to drive every Sunday an hour's drive to Fullerton.  Pete L. would sometimes drive, and I would have to pay attention to make sure that he didn't fall asleep at the wheel.  He had a Mazda with a rotary engine.  A couple of times he drifted and scraped his wheels against the railing of the freeway.

There used to be real all-nights of prayer in Fullerton.  After staying up all night, I would have to drive an hour to get home so that I could go to bed.  To help with staying awake on the road, I would get some orange juice and beef jerky from a mini-mart on the way home.

The houses were simply called brothers' houses.  The idea of formalized training came later.

Al had one advantage: his wife Cathy was a lot like Speedy Gonzales.  She could do almost any chore in no time flat.  I don't know if she is still that way.

¡Arriba, arriba, ándale, ándale!

Tom's house was the least strict, even though his style of teaching and preaching created the impression that he was very strict.  He was somewhat of a rebel and ran his house the way he wanted to, rather than George's way, although I thought that he was a little too hard on his wife Caryl.  Perhaps he learned his ways from being a sixth-grade teacher.  He could keep order in his classroom by sounding stricter than he really was.

Thanks Steve.  I think your objectivity makes for a better account than I can give of my inadequacies as an LB.  I truly did not know what I was doing, but I have always tended to be obsessive/compulsive (although in those days I neither realized it nor had heard such terminology).  I was determined to "answer God's call" by trying to do whatever was required of me while not revealing how little I understood.  I think the only one who had any idea how badly messed up I was would have been Tom Maddux, and he had his own struggles to occupy his energies.

I don't know what role my narrow-mindedness may have played in my being "fired."  I can't recall GG ever bringing it up as such, although he often had me on the carpet for one thing or another (little of which I remember now).  By mid-1980, Cathy & I and our four kids lived alone.  I had grown so ill and discouraged that I had stopped attending most meetings, had stopped bringing ministry, and GG had had all the bros removed from our house.  Those deemed "unfit" for a "better" house (see next paragraph) just had to find a place & fend for themselves as I recall.  No one ever told me I was relieved of my responsibilities.  I was simply ignored, then shunned.  When we moved to Ohio and were unable to take evrything with us, I had to have Cathy give my books, etc. to the saints-- they would not have accepted them from me.  They knew we were moving, but no one helped us (I suppose they were either told not to or feared they would get in trouble if they helped and it became known).


I wish I could say I had more than just Cathy going for me, but Steve sums it up well.  The most "promising" Valley bros lived with Tom, & I got the rest.  The house was continuous bedlam.  I felt constantly threatened with exposure as a failure, and although I genuinely loved every one of the bros under our roof, I was hard on them & had little patience.  Cathy's nickname was Roadrunner.  When anyone fell behind, she could jump in & wrap things up in no time.  She also loved the bros, and often spent time comforting them in their woes (which may well have been attributable to or at least exacerbated by me).

Yes, Steve, even after rearing four children and a fulltime career, she is still that way.  Age has slowed her only slightly.


Ah, yes, my frequent cry when trying to get everyone up or out the door-- often echoed by Pete L., Doug or Rob.  We did have a lot of fun together, constant improv comedy & lots of laughs.  But the bros who stayed with Cathy & me were always left feeling badly (unwanted, I think) when GG "promoted" someone from our house to Tom's house.  To be honest, I think I would have preferred to live under someone else's tutelage & not been in charge, but there were few warm bodies to pick from at the start, so I was an "LB" sort of by default, and stuck with it-- too proud to ask to step down, & I think GG wanted me in the inner circle where he could monitor me & keep me in line.

In Christ,
al

Al,

People do tend to stay away after receiving a letter that says, "Please don't visit me or contact me".

Tom

Think about this statement Al.
It is a good example of what was wrong with all the things we did.

  Charity suffereth long,


The true beginning of recovery from that era BEGINS with  acknolwdgement before God and men of what was!  :'(





I am.  :)






Your realationship with Christ is paramount, but come on Al, do you really think that it is ALL that matters? Even to the exclusion of your relationships with brethren?
So far as insults go, how I respond would definitely depend on the source.
From people I respect, my first reaction would be to take careful stock so as to determine what might have prompted so strong a reaction.
From people I do not....well, I would have to consider it a badge of honor!  :)
The greatest insult you can "bestow" on someone is to smply ignore them Al.
No one here is ignoring you.
Verne

The discussion has gotten side tracked a little, but the side track is good and OK.  I just want to comment on the original track.

Since you asked, here is an example of what I meant.  The jokes at your expense ???  The "I am pathetic" ???  You couldn't care less whether your attitude appears pious to others. ???  You cannot learn much about yourself from hostility & insults.  :-\ ??? You said "speak out" & "talk to me".  But when I did I got the response above as a result.

The reason to write/say words is to communicate to others.  If one is failing then there is a need to re-evaluate. eh??

I am sorry that anyone had to go through what you did as an assembly man, but am happy that you can now take refuge and comfort in Christ.

God bless,
Marcia

OK Al,

I can tell you that most of your posts, where you get "serious about the Gospel of Our Lord Jesus Christ," are boring, and entirely lacking in any sort of substance.  I rarely read through all of them, when I see you're on that tack.  You are at your best with the witty stuff.

Anyhow, on the one hand you say, "Say something, don't spare my personal feelings" on the other, you ignore what people say.

You come across as a religious windbag.  I don't know how to say it any other way.  It's been going on for a long time, but when you started a thread in order to sanctimoniously examine the implications of the title, "Out of Control Poster," and "No editing or deleting," on the testimony of our Blessed Lord and Savior, Head over all things to the Church,  it was the last straw for me.

It's ridiculous, pure and simple.  If you think it implies seriousness about the Gospel, you are mistaken.  It clearly demonstrates that you are fixated on little details that may appear strange to others.  (In your mind. not in theirs.)

So, there's the straight scoop.  I promise I've simply said what others think, like it or not.

Brent

I probably would have tried to convey this message witha bit more delicacy (I would not have called you an idiot for example) but sometimes that approach is futile.
I have had to shake my head in wonder at some of the things you have posted and expecially the juncture you chose to expostulate. 
I imagine you could say the same about much that I have posted.

I think you once called me a " name-dropper" "arrogant" and "condescending".  :)
I am sure some peoeple agree with you




In the main though, I agree with Brent's assessment of how some of what you say comes across.
You are indeed incredibly witty when you have a mind to be... :)
Verne

Stephen---

I may have mentioned this before, but the morning Doug Large broke his alarm clock
for going off 15 minutes early was my first morning waking up in Al's house. I had moved
in at about 10:00 P.M. the night before, feeling it was "now or never"(you know, one of
those emotional "better do it now because the chance may never come your way again"
type of things).

I awoke to the sound of Doug smashing his alarm clock, and immediately thought, "what have
I gotten myself into?" I clearly remember you saying Stephen, "Doug, get your heart right with
the Lord", which seemed to calm him down. But it truly was a very unusual first day in the house.

--Joe

It seems to be pretty obvious that the brothers and sisters houses were nothing more than a farm for the psychological domination and molding of potential  future GeftakysServants.
It also proviced a better opportunity to influnce the finances of others to the advantage of the house owners and ultimately George and Betty.
It is my prediction that his decades of avarice notwithstanding, he will not leave this life a wealthy man - spiritually or materially...

Wealth gotten by vanity shall be diminished

Verne

p.s When Bill Bradbury was in Champaign, the "responsible brothers" planned a camping trip on which you had to provide your own tent, sleeping bag and supplies.
You can imagine my astonsihment when I learned that the fee for participating in this "time of fellowship" was going to be $35.00 per person. Not that I could not afford it, but I thought it was absolutely sacandalous and rapacious that they were asking peope to pay that much...
Then again it could be that they did not expect too much participation and had to make it high enough to cover "expenses"...

 :)March 9th.

I read through all the postings here.

I have observed a few things.
1. the wounds of betrayal scars of assemblyist inflictions are still wide open.
2. insecurities are showing its fangs.
3. all trying to say the same thing
4. still trying to find your way, on this Christian journey.
5. still looking for answers
6. all are behind emotions
7. and God isnt a weapon.

Am I off the mark here???

There is another factor here that can be in play. The factor of mental illnesses as well as a spiritual illness.  Sometimes we use God as a shield, and not in the way God has intended us to use him.  We can spout off Bible verses, and doctrine, to cover up our insecurities about God in our lives. Quite often it is not intentional. It is away, to say, hey, I am here, I need help and encouragement too.
Or I can be off the mark, and it could be HEY< LOOK AT ME, I WANT ATTENTION.

We all need to be refreshed spiritually, emotionally, mentally, and physically.
I thought this web site was a site where we can say what we need to say, with out fear of being attacked.  AM I WRONG IN THIS ASSESSMENT!!!!!!!!??????

As for me, a light mood of calling some one OUT OF CONTROL POSTER, is a mood lightening and should be taken as such. I can understand the spiritual aspects of it. As a Christian we shouldnt be out of control in anything. But we are. There are many areas that are so out of control in my life. YOU SHOULD LOOK AT MY HOUSE!!!. Isnt that what a depended life in God is for, To get ourselves under control.  To me to be called an OUT OF CONTROL POSTER would be a compliment. Because my it is a reflection of my writings and contributions to this web site.

To always look at the negative, which I am learning slowly, how not to do. Instead look at the positive aspect of it.  I am a negative person, I can think negatively, I can speak negatively and when I get angry, I can react negatively by attacking. I am that way, Reason is hurts I have received and the upbringing in the negative has been rebirth in my character. It is a reason, but it is not an excuse for my behaviour. How I deal with it now is the question that needs to be dealt with? Am I learning from it? Yes, slowly with many stumbles along the way?

Maybe my answers are boring too, and not worth the eye exercises to read them. I am trying to bring understanding if I am successful at it or not. I dont know!

Al: I understand where the question came from.
I can understand where you are coming from.

Just laugh at yourself once in a while can help lift the heart. :D ;)

God created laughter and merrymaking too.

Remember the Bible said what you bound on earth, you bound in Heaven.
Well I believe I will be making the coffee for the Banquet in Heaven, reason why, I have said this before. Is that every organization I got to , I ultimately end up making the coffee for the groups. I have notice this for the last 15 years.
So I say since I make so much coffee on earth in service for my church here on earth. I will be making coffee for my heavenly church fellowship for the wedding banquet.
 ::)

 :DHave a wonderful GIDDAY

LENORE

Lenore---

Thanks for your post. I have to admit, I always took the "out of control" poster thing
in a humorous way also. I'd always think of Dana Carvey, immitating Regis Philbin, and
saying "You're all OUT OF CONTROL".(you'd have to have seen him do the impression,
but it was quite funny).

--Joe

I appreciate your perspective.
I am also quickly coming to the conclusion that sin in all its forms is essentially abnormality.
I believe part of the wonder of salvation is that God wants to make us whole, normal human beings.
We often have difficulty distinguishing these two states, and brethren with wisdom and Godly grace are invaluable.
Beware folk who by their conduct display the worst kind of abnormality - no abillity to distinguish the two!
Verne

p.s. I got upset with my eight-year-old last night when I realized that she had used up all my printer paper for her artwork. She explained that she did not use the computer paper I brought from work because it had printing on one side!  ::)
 I looked at her smiling face this morning and it was clear to me that while it may have been necessary to correct her on which stack of paper was available for her use, getting upset about what happened was abnormal and petty. I felt an apology was in order...

When Al first had the idea about changing "Out of Control Poster,"  I answered him thus:


I hinted around that Al should just lighten up on it, and not be so concerned about image.  I was speaking in the general sense, and made a reference that it isn't good to be so concerned about image, etc.  Most people would have said,  "Yeah, OK I see where you are coming from.  If you don't think it's a big deal, I won't get too upset over it."  Al, however, saw an opportunity to "stand for the Gospel of Our Lord Jesus Christ, delivered once for all the saints."

His response was a "I'm concerned about the image of our Lord Jesus Christ....".  At that point I decided to stop tip-toeing around and get to the meat of the matter.

I tried delicacy, by implying that it added a light-hearted twist to what we do here, and implied that perhaps we shouldn't take ourselves too seriously, etc.  However, when the response was sanctimonious God talk, I decided that I was tired of listening to a Saturday Night Live skit caricaturizing a Christian.  I had enough and was going to say something. 

I didn't like this sort of talk, even when I was in the Assembly and I was surrounded by it.  Even then I thought it was phoney posturing.

Brent

I'm pretty sure that those were not the exact words that I used.  Being an introvert and a timid, fearful person, I wouldn't have used such a leader-like phrase.  What I said to him was more like entreaty and pleading, and there was some arguing back and forth between us.  This may seem strange, but I was rather short-sighted in that situation since my immediate concern was to get Doug to calm down so that he wouldn't break his alarm clock.  I was too late for that.  It had already been broken by its first high-speed impact with the ground.  I perceived his behavior as being self-destructive.  Breaking his clock meant that he would have to buy another one, and that was wasteful.

I was also short-sighted in my treatment of Pete L.  My concern there was for his alarm clock to be shut off.  I didn't want to shut it off myself, since then it would have been my fault that he was late getting to work.  Waking him up so that he would shut off his own alarm meant that it was his own fault if he was late.  Throwing the blanket at him was something that I had to do every morning.  I hope that he's not angry with me for that.

Of course, if I wasn't so short-sighted, I would have left the group earlier, and I wouldn't have let my health get run down to the point of catching pneumonia.

Stephen---

You're right, you would know better what you said after he sent the clock sailing
through the air(My, how time flies doesn't it?--silly joke). I just remember your saying
something to him concerning the Lord and it calmed him down right away. We all had
our times of frustration.

I remember once, I was trying to get to sleep, and Dan Ryan, one of my roomates at
the time,(I lived with Tom at this point),
 had his lamp on and was doing homework or something. I kept clearing my
throat, as a hint that I was awake and HE was responsible for it. My frustration and
anger built. But instead of simply saying "Hey Dan, you going to be much longer? I really
need to get some sleep", I grabbed my pillow, and said "Geez!!! I can't believe this!"
and opened the sliding door and went and laid on the lawn in the backyard.

He used to mention it at times later, and we would laugh about it whole-heartedly. It's
amazing all the silly things I know I did back then.

--Joe

     Earlier, I said that I am being as honest with you all as I am with myself.  I stand by that.  I honestly didn't remember sending such a letter (to be read to the assy?, LBs?, workers?), but I have no reason to doubt Tom's word, and it sounds absolutely like something I would have done at that time.  It that light, I hope you will all accept my apology for everything that I have posted which has pointed blame for my being shunned toward anyone other than myself.

---

    Now I have asked you to be direct with me, and many of you have responded.  I am grateful.  You may doubt my sincerity if you wish.  There has been nothing said on this thread, by any of us, which I regret.  As Marcia has pointed out, the departure from my original post has been good.  If my thinking, posting and general outlook and demeanor has been harmful for this board and/or anyone else, it certainly needed to be addressed.  How can I object to that?  I want to get straightened out.  Why anyone would not want to be corrected is serious stuff.

---

    Lenore, I appreciate your bringing up the mental/emotional illness aspect, which I tend to discount without due consideration.  It has been a lifelong factor-- no reason to think it may not rear up at any time.

---

    Verne, thanks for the reminder about being vs not being ignored.

     I believe the things you quoted me as having said about you were said in a private communication-- I only mention this in case someone has decided to try to find them in a past post.  As I have told you and others, unless I specify a request for privacy, all my EMs and PMs may be made public at the recipient's discretion, as was this case.

     I also want to answer your question by stating that I cannot conceive of a life centered upon Christ and anything.  I believe that my proper relationship with the saints, the lost, my family, my community can only come as the result of my maintaining a proper relationship with Christ.  Admittedly, I have never attained to this perfectly, nor do I expect to, but it seems to me the best possible way to live:  Christ first in every consideration, & all else proceeding from there.  Fanatic?  You tell me...

---

    To all who have engaged in this conversation, my thanks, because I believe that every one of you has a heart for the Lord and, because of that, cares about me, too.  Please don't stop addressing, criticizing, correcting, cajoling, ridiculing, and especially praying for me (except Brent, of course, who is excused from prayer ;)).  Everything that has been said to me and about me will be studied, prayed about, reconsidered, and acted upon as best I understand.  If I have questions, I intend to ask them, either publicly or privately, just as I did in starting this thread.  To my shame, I confess that I wasn't "Just Curious," as I implied.  You have shown me that I was being a religious prig.

     While it has occurred to me that this experience provides an excellent opportunity for me to depart from this board, I have considered it and I think that it would be a mistake and an excuse.  I do not post this to engender your replies.  I have been helped greatly here, and will seek to continue to gain from reading here.  As for posting, I will continue to do so as seems proper to me, both seriously and humorously (except in Canada, where it will be humourously, eh?), but I will try my durndest to drop the sanctimonious "Church Lady" act & to severely limit my pontifications.

In Christ,
al

It takes a strong person to say something like this Al.  We've all done the same and worse.  I admire you for 'fessing up.  No one here dislikes you, including me. 

You can use the bovine phrase if you wish.  ;)

Brent

Thus ends another episode in the continuing drama on AB.
Good night John-boy!   ;)

For real, blessings to you Al, and hope we can all continue to learn together on AB.

Marcia

P.S.

Re. the letter that Al sent, is it possible that it was assembly propoganda to keep people from contacting Al.  Maybe Tom actually saw the letter, in which case I sit corrected.

Marcia

 :DMarch 9th:

Good Evening Al.

In this post you seemed to gone through the washer, then through the wringer, then hung out to dry. Sun bleached.  Now come out sweet and  smelling like a Rose. ;D ::)

All for asking about the" OUT OF CONTROL POSTER".

JUST WONDERING IF YOU WILL DO THAT AGAIN :-\ :P :-[

It good to bear one soul now and then :o that way there are no dark corners that is being neatly tuck away from sight :P. >:D.

Well the Bible did say that the light will shine through the darkness 8).

Al your contributions here, well it wouldnt be the same with out you. :D.

Now that I have had my fun.  I hope you are feeling more up lifted & encouraged. 8)

Take Care Now :-*

Does anyone else needs a through cleaning out, because I am sure there are ones that can help do the spiritual laundry.   :-X ;)

GIDDAY

LENORE

Thanks, Brent.  That's all I really wanted... ;D

---

Marcia, I think the letter must have come from me.  I can understand why you might suspect otherwise, but if I'm not mistaken, Cathy & our kids were still attending meetings, so a forgery probably wouldn't have flown.

---

HA! Good one, Lenore!  (And people say I have a good sense of humor! :) :D ;D

Blessings in Christ,
al

People sometimes say that time flies like an arrow.

What we learned is that time can also fly like an alarm clock going off 15 minutes too early.

Do you like the new cleaner leaner Al ?? ;) :)

Are you volunteering to be next Lenore?  ;) 8)

Marcia

Good night Jim-bob!  ;D

Groucho Marx put it this way:

Time flies like an arrow.  Fruit flies like a banana.

Now Marcia, are you saying I need a bath ::) and are you volunteering to make sure I am thoroughly clean ::) ;)

Talk to you later.

Lenore

Cleaner was in reference to going through the washer, and leaner with going through the wringer.
I should have been more specific eh?? :)

God bless,
Marcia

Sort of like be baptized by water then by wringer.  For me it would take a steam roller than a wringer washer to flatten me out.  I was wondering who would remember the wringer washers anyways.  I used to operate one when I was a teenager, before my mother got one of those portable washers that if you attached a exercise belt to it, the shaking of the machine as it rinsed and spun would shake off the excess body weight. I used to operate one of those too. Those machine were the type you had to babysit as you washed not just throw in a wait.
Any one over 40 should remember them. But you never know.

By the way do you want to continue our cleaning & wringing conversation in person on March 21st. :o ;)

Lenore